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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Troubleshoot/Diagnostics MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Troubleshoot/Diagnostics - Have a problem with the car? CEL Code? Want to discuss other issues? Come on in!


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 Old 07-11-2018, 07:45 PM   #1
 
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Default Rich at Idle - P2188

So, I recently got back into the mazdaspeed scene after selling my MS3 back in 2013 to make space for my new family. Well the time had finally come to get the car I always wanted to own. So, I bought a MS6 from someone local and I think he was being a bit dishonest when he sold it to me.

Let me start by listing what it has done:
Cobb AP V2 with OTS 93 Stage 3 map
BNR S3 Turbo
Relentless Intake Manifold (w/ VTCS delete)
CX Racing FMIC (w/ knockoff Greddy Type s BPV)
AEM CAI
Ebay TIP
Catted DP (unknown brand)
Magnaflow cat-back
Autotech HPFP Internals
Cobb EBCS.

First thing I noticed is that he had the BPV spring too "hard" which caused compressor surge and backfires between shifts (he thought it sounded awesome, but I remember with my MS3 that this was not good so I fixed that immediately).

After buying the car, 2 days later I got 2 DTCs one being P2188 - Rich at Idle, and P0128 - Coolant Temperature below Thermostat Operating Temperature. The thermostat code I am not too concerned with since I will just replace it. Its the rich idle that I am really struggling with.

I started to keep an eye on my STFTs, LTFTs, and AFR and noticed that my STFTs were around -25, my LTFTs were bouncing around 0, and my AFR was around 14.58 at idle. When driving, the STFTs were -6, LTFTs were -8, AFR around 14.6. Under WOT, the trims went to 0. Return to idle and the net between STFT and LTFT is near -25.

I began troubleshooting and started with a boost leak test after tightening up all boost tube clamps. Now I did this 3 different ways:

First leak test, I hooked up my tester to the inlet of my TIP (post MAF and crankcase vent tube return). I used a tire inflator (I know it is quite under powered) and the gauge was reading 10 psi and never climbed. I did not find any noticeable leaks.

Second leak test, I isolated the FMIC and found that it held 20 psi no problem.

Third leak test, I hooked up right before the BPV and throttle body. I noticed the BPV was leaking into the recirc tube. I took apart the BPV and noticed an o-ring had unseated itself (probably because he loved that damn flutter and the boost pressure popped it off). I fixed the o-ring, and the BPV no longer leaks. Here is where things became a little unclear. I pressurized the system again, and it sits at 10 psi and doesnt build. I cut the pump off and I hear air coming from the recirc tube originating from the compressor inlet. I removed the Cobb EBCS line coming from the manifold vac line and plugged it, and the air leak is gone. Is my wastegate leaking air into the inlet somehow?

Now with the EBCS blocked, I pumped air into the intake manifold, and I stays around 10 psi again, and I notice air escaping from the crankcase vent tube (back right of the valve cover). I plug the vent tube, and I get pressure to built to 13-14 psi. I cut off the pump and hear a venting noise within the crank case (PCV?). I open the oil cap, and I can hear air escaping when the pump is on. Is this normal or is my PCV bad?

After doing some reading, I notice some say that is normal for the PCV to leak boost during a leak test, and that the wastegate can leak as well. So, I am not entirely sure I have a boost leak or not.

After all this, I unplugged battery negative, cleaned the MAF, and replaced the spark plugs. I noticed the IAT had a bit of surface rust, but I did my best to clean that up with the MAF cleaner. I started the car next morning, and things seemed to improve after taking all the FMIC pipes apart but still having negative trims. STFTs -7, LTFT -8 at idle. I drove around and thought I had it good enough to pass NY emission test. I get to the inspection, and the damn P2188 came on while they were testing and failed me. Now I have 30 days to fix this.

I reflashed to the stock map, and the AP started flashing when viewing STFTs which were showing -50! So I cut the car off and flashed back to the Stage 3 map which has the STFT at -25.

TLDR; I have STFTs and LTFTs that net aroung -15 to -25 at idle. I troubleshooted a boost leak and found air escaping the wastegate through the EBCS and air escaping through the crankcase (via vent tube or oil cap). MAF was removed and cleaned, but had no effect. Battery was removed and had no effect. Spark plugs were replaced with no effect.

If the air escape paths are normal, I am suspecting a stuck injector?

I can provide logs, please let me know what you want to see.

Thanks for the help guys!
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 Old 07-11-2018, 08:29 PM   #2
 
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Coolant temp sensor problems can cause negative fuel trims. Since you know you're getting a code for that, I'd fix that first and see what happens.
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 Old 07-11-2018, 08:32 PM   #3
 
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Originally Posted by Solarsurge View Post
Coolant temp sensor problems can cause negative fuel trims. Since you know you're getting a code for that, I'd fix that first and see what happens.
I will do that probably this weekend. If this is so, wouldn't I stop seeing negative trims when the car eventually makes it to operating temps? When the coolant temp is around 185F, I still get negative trims.
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 Old 07-11-2018, 08:46 PM   #4
 
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In theory, yes. But solve problems you know you have before you try and solve problems you might not have.

Aside from this, the most likely causes for negative trims specific to the MS6 are dirty MAF, bad VVT replacement job (timing off), a leaking injector, bad fuel pressure relief valve, bad O2 sensor, or exhaust leak.

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 Old 07-12-2018, 07:14 AM   #5
 
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Another question. The car has a Cobb EBCS, and the car is using a OTS Cobb Stage 3 map, could this be a culprit to my issues?
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 Old 07-12-2018, 01:46 PM   #6
 
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Just logged some data.
Attached Files
File Type: csv Cruising.csv (17.6 KB, 0 views)
File Type: csv 3rdGearWOT.csv (8.7 KB, 2 views)
File Type: csv 2ndGearGradualAccel.csv (19.9 KB, 0 views)
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 Old 07-12-2018, 03:13 PM   #7
 
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I agree. Fix the thermostat and re-evaluate.
Running rich could be a safety measure for when the thermostat us acting up. If the coolant is colder than it should be (per the DTC definition), perhaps the cold enrichment is still active.
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 Old 07-12-2018, 05:14 PM   #8
 
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Ok, I will replace the thermostat this weekend. Hopefully its that simple.

After starting, my ECT rises to about 140-145F. Only after sitting and idling does the ECT reach 185F. But even after getting to 185F, my trims are still pretty negative (today the STFT was -7 and LTFT was -17 when it was 82F ambient).
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 Old 07-15-2018, 05:35 PM   #9
 
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After fixing the thermostat the first thing I would do is get it properly tuned. The OTS maps from the accessport are not sufficient or specific to the mods that are on your car. Turbo size and exhaust alone can be causing your issues without proper tuning

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 Old 07-16-2018, 06:08 AM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
Ok, I will replace the thermostat this weekend. Hopefully its that simple.

After starting, my ECT rises to about 140-145F. Only after sitting and idling does the ECT reach 185F. But even after getting to 185F, my trims are still pretty negative (today the STFT was -7 and LTFT was -17 when it was 82F ambient).
After replacing the t-stat and confirming that the code is eliminated, put at least 50 miles on the car to give your trims a chance to normalize. Then re-log and compare. Don't mess with anything else until you've done this.
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 Old 07-16-2018, 07:36 AM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by MSMS3 View Post
After replacing the t-stat and confirming that the code is eliminated, put at least 50 miles on the car to give your trims a chance to normalize. Then re-log and compare. Don't mess with anything else until you've done this.
Will do.

On the way home from work on Friday, I had the pleasure of my radiator cracking and leaking. So, I pulled the front end off, replaced the thermostat, and am waiting for my new radiator to be delivered. I plan on replacing the PCV valve while it is easily accessible.

This car really hasn't been enjoyable so far, especially with the time constraint on passing NY emission inspections.
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 Old 07-24-2018, 11:37 AM   #12
 
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I finally was able to install my replacement radiator, and decided to take care of some other things while the car was apart.

1. Replaced Radiator
2. Replaced Thermostat
3. Replaced PCV
4. Replaced MAF Sensor
5. Corrected routing of lines to EBCS
6. Re-installed FMIC and Pipes

I have only driven approximately 15 miles since doing all this work, and my idle trims seem to be ok (STFT ~-3, LTFT ~-6). But now I am noticing that my fuel trims are rich when off idle. The fuel trims net between -13 to -20.

Going to drive some more and see how things go.
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 Old 08-10-2018, 11:14 AM   #13
 
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So its been a few weeks, and I still have rich trims off idle. Idle trims are within tolerance, but anything off idle is between -13 to -20. I also started noticing a jerkiness during acceleration in 1st.

I know I need to get a proper tune, but I want to make sure there is nothing mechanical wrong before doing so. I have not found any boost leaks, and the fact that my idle trims look acceptable lead me to believe that it is not leak related.

I also noticed that my AFRs jump around a bit, usually +/- 0.5 compared to commanded. Also, under WOT my AFR is around 8-9.

I checked my fuel pressure, and it sits around 425 psi at idle, and goes up to 1700-1800 under load. The fact that my idle trims are good make me think that it is not a leaking injector.

Could my issues be tuning related?
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 Old 08-10-2018, 11:48 AM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
So its been a few weeks, and I still have rich trims off idle. Idle trims are within tolerance, but anything off idle is between -13 to -20. I also started noticing a jerkiness during acceleration in 1st.

I know I need to get a proper tune, but I want to make sure there is nothing mechanical wrong before doing so. I have not found any boost leaks, and the fact that my idle trims look acceptable lead me to believe that it is not leak related.

I also noticed that my AFRs jump around a bit, usually +/- 0.5 compared to commanded. Also, under WOT my AFR is around 8-9.

I checked my fuel pressure, and it sits around 425 psi at idle, and goes up to 1700-1800 under load. The fact that my idle trims are good make me think that it is not a leaking injector.

Could my issues be tuning related?

Did you check for exhaust leaks like I said?


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 Old 08-10-2018, 12:13 PM   #15
 
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Originally Posted by Solarsurge View Post
Did you check for exhaust leaks like I said?


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I did check, but I will admit that it was not a thorough check. If it was an exhaust leak, it would be post turbo and pre 02 sensor right? So that would be basically checking the downpipe connection?

I'll take a more thorough look tonight.
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 Old 08-10-2018, 12:18 PM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
So its been a few weeks, and I still have rich trims off idle. Idle trims are within tolerance, but anything off idle is between -13 to -20. I also started noticing a jerkiness during acceleration in 1st.

I know I need to get a proper tune, but I want to make sure there is nothing mechanical wrong before doing so. I have not found any boost leaks, and the fact that my idle trims look acceptable lead me to believe that it is not leak related.

I also noticed that my AFRs jump around a bit, usually +/- 0.5 compared to commanded. Also, under WOT my AFR is around 8-9.

I checked my fuel pressure, and it sits around 425 psi at idle, and goes up to 1700-1800 under load. The fact that my idle trims are good make me think that it is not a leaking injector.

Could my issues be tuning related?
I think getting a base tune will help rule out any tune related issues so the sensors are calibrated the way they should be. You could have a MAF table that is way out and causing the issues.

You could have a exhaust leak or a sensor that is not calibrated right. If your boost and WGDC is not oscillating you should try to get the car at least calibrated for your climate.

You could have an exhaust leak also so check for that.
Link to easy way to find the leak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-exs1iMLFU
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 Old 08-10-2018, 12:23 PM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
I did check, but I will admit that it was not a thorough check. If it was an exhaust leak, it would be post turbo and pre 02 sensor right? So that would be basically checking the downpipe connection?



I'll take a more thorough look tonight.

Most commonly it would be turbo to downpipe, especially if the exhaust was ever modified.


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 Old 08-10-2018, 04:56 PM   #18
 
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Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
So its been a few weeks, and I still have rich trims off idle. Idle trims are within tolerance, but anything off idle is between -13 to -20. I also started noticing a jerkiness during acceleration in 1st.

I know I need to get a proper tune, but I want to make sure there is nothing mechanical wrong before doing so. I have not found any boost leaks, and the fact that my idle trims look acceptable lead me to believe that it is not leak related.

I also noticed that my AFRs jump around a bit, usually +/- 0.5 compared to commanded. Also, under WOT my AFR is around 8-9.

I checked my fuel pressure, and it sits around 425 psi at idle, and goes up to 1700-1800 under load. The fact that my idle trims are good make me think that it is not a leaking injector.

Could my issues be tuning related?
Do you have an AP? Post a datalog. One at idle for a very short amount of time, and one in 3rd or 4th from 3K RPM to 6-6.5K RPM.

The AFR will never be perfectly stable. And under WOT you certainly should not be at 8-9. More like 10.5-11.

Jerkiness in 1st could be TC kicking in.

Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
I finally was able to install my replacement radiator, and decided to take care of some other things while the car was apart.

1. Replaced Radiator
2. Replaced Thermostat
3. Replaced PCV
4. Replaced MAF Sensor
5. Corrected routing of lines to EBCS
6. Re-installed FMIC and Pipes

I have only driven approximately 15 miles since doing all this work, and my idle trims seem to be ok (STFT ~-3, LTFT ~-6). But now I am noticing that my fuel trims are rich when off idle. The fuel trims net between -13 to -20.

Going to drive some more and see how things go.
Is it an OEM MAF?

Did you do a boost leak test? Do that first before replacing anything else. Use soapy water at all connections from the turbo outlet to the TB inlet.
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 Old 08-11-2018, 05:09 AM   #19
 
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Originally Posted by Thor Hammer View Post
Do you have an AP? Post a datalog. One at idle for a very short amount of time, and one in 3rd or 4th from 3K RPM to 6-6.5K RPM.

The AFR will never be perfectly stable. And under WOT you certainly should not be at 8-9. More like 10.5-11.

Jerkiness in 1st could be TC kicking in.



Is it an OEM MAF?

Did you do a boost leak test? Do that first before replacing anything else. Use soapy water at all connections from the turbo outlet to the TB inlet.
I replaced the MAF with a Walker MAF from rockauto. I did do a boost leak test, and the only thing I could find was a leak in my BPV (its a knock off greddy type-s that came with the cx racing FMIC). I rebuilt the BPV and found an o-ring unseated, so that is corrected.
While replacing my radiator, I disassembled the FMIC piping from the turbo to the throttle body to ensure they were all tight.

Originally Posted by pwdunmore View Post
I think getting a base tune will help rule out any tune related issues so the sensors are calibrated the way they should be. You could have a MAF table that is way out and causing the issues.

You could have a exhaust leak or a sensor that is not calibrated right. If your boost and WGDC is not oscillating you should try to get the car at least calibrated for your climate.

You could have an exhaust leak also so check for that.
Link to easy way to find the leak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-exs1iMLFU
Originally Posted by Solarsurge View Post
Most commonly it would be turbo to downpipe, especially if the exhaust was ever modified.


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So, last night I did a thorough exhaust leak test. I didn't remove my heat shield previously because it was pretty rusted, but last night I got it off. I noticed that the DP is an ATP catted DP. I pressurized the exhaust and found that there was a quite comical amount of air escaping the v-band joint prior to the O2 sensor. There was also a little leak between the turbine housing and the coupler to the v-band joint. I disassembled, cleaned, and tightened back up. Now things are a lot more secure. Haven't had a chance to drive around and log yet. Will do so as soon as possible.
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 Old 08-11-2018, 05:27 AM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
I replaced the MAF with a Walker MAF from rockauto.
Throw that in the trash and buy OEM.

/thread
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 Old 08-11-2018, 06:06 AM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Throw that in the trash and buy OEM.

/thread
Is it really that bad to use an aftermarket sensor? At this point I am not 100% sure of the cause and didnít want to cough up $100+ on a sensor just to troubleshoot. If I can isolate the root cause being the maf, the I would be more comfortable.

But if you are saying anything aftermarket is garbage, then Iíll reconsider.
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 Old 08-13-2018, 09:42 AM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
Is it really that bad to use an aftermarket sensor?
Unfortunately yes. I have yet to see any aftermarket MAF read correctly across the range. You can try and see how it goes.
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 Old 08-13-2018, 12:10 PM   #23
 
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Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
Is it really that bad to use an aftermarket sensor? At this point I am not 100% sure of the cause and didnít want to cough up $100+ on a sensor just to troubleshoot. If I can isolate the root cause being the maf, the I would be more comfortable.



But if you are saying anything aftermarket is garbage, then Iíll reconsider.

As Iím pretty sure youíve just located the source of your issue, the leak in your exhaust, you can go back to stock MAF and everything should be fine.


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 Old 08-14-2018, 05:12 AM   #24
 
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One other minor thing (compared to other issues you seem to have resolved):

The AEM CAI intake is supposed to have an air straightener insert in the tube just ahead of the MAF housing. It is known to produce erratic MAF voltage without it. That could account for some of your idle and off idle trim issues.
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 Old 08-14-2018, 06:30 AM   #25
 
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Thanks guys. Unfortunately, the previous owner replaced the MAF with what looks like an aftermarket one. So, I replaced it with another aftermarket one.

As far as the exhaust leak, I ordered a new gasket for the turbo to DP connection, and a new v-band. Hopefully this corrects it. In the meantime, I tightened it all down, and I still get weird readings. I will wait until I get the new gaskets, then re-flash, then post some logs.

As far as the flow straightener in the AEM CAI, I have not checked to see if it is in there. I will take a look today.

Again, I appreciate everyone's help.
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 Old 08-14-2018, 07:08 AM   #26
 
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Find a local and swap in their MAF sensor for a quick test.
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 Old 09-12-2018, 01:21 PM   #27
 
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Originally Posted by nebolskeetskeet View Post
Thanks guys. Unfortunately, the previous owner replaced the MAF with what looks like an aftermarket one. So, I replaced it with another aftermarket one.

As far as the exhaust leak, I ordered a new gasket for the turbo to DP connection, and a new v-band. Hopefully this corrects it. In the meantime, I tightened it all down, and I still get weird readings. I will wait until I get the new gaskets, then re-flash, then post some logs.

As far as the flow straightener in the AEM CAI, I have not checked to see if it is in there. I will take a look today.

Again, I appreciate everyone's help.

Pretty sure Denso makes the OEM MAF sensor on our cars.
Watching for updates as I got the same pesky code too.
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 Old 09-12-2018, 01:22 PM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by rpmteg1 View Post
Pretty sure Denso makes the OEM MAF sensor on our cars.

Watching for updates as I got the same pesky code too.

Pretty sure Denso makes 90% of the OEM electrical shit on any Japanese car. lol


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