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 Old 06-10-2019, 06:45 AM   #1
 
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Default Weak Boost

Hi All,

I took my '10 MS3 to a mechanic to fix an oil leak problem I had. Since I got it back, the car is no longer providing me with that in-your-seat boost feeling we all know and love. It seems to be struggling.

I have also recently installed the cobb SF intake and turbo inlet hose and tuned it with my APv3. I can clearly hear the air rushing into the turbo.

I have no engine lights, and both the AP and stock boost gauge indicate that the turbo is providing proper PSI.

I took my car to 3 mechanics and they can not tell me whats wrong. One says my K04 is slowly dying.

Any Ideas?
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 Old 06-10-2019, 11:50 AM   #2
 
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Do you really think we may help in any way with the info you give?
Where did the leak was ?

Are you sure the TIH and intake are installed properly ? Have you tried the oem one ?

BTW, if your turbo is building boost and not smoking, there is no way it could be the parts that limit the engine power.

Can you just have a leak if you hear that much the ''turbo''? a leak can make a huge sound...

Data log it and post it here
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 Old 06-10-2019, 12:56 PM   #3
 
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
Hi All,

I took my '10 MS3 to a mechanic to fix an oil leak problem I had. Since I got it back, the car is no longer providing me with that in-your-seat boost feeling we all know and love. It seems to be struggling.

I have also recently installed the cobb SF intake and turbo inlet hose and tuned it with my APv3. I can clearly hear the air rushing into the turbo.

I have no engine lights, and both the AP and stock boost gauge indicate that the turbo is providing proper PSI.

I took my car to 3 mechanics and they can not tell me whats wrong. One says my K04 is slowly dying.

Any Ideas?
So the car was running properly with the new intake, TIP and tune first? Please confirm this.

Then, a properly running car, hitting boost targets with those mods and tune runs successfully for a while? How long before the oil change?

Then, only after the oil change the drop in power occurs? Was it right away, or how much time went by?

The sequence and time line are important.

Please post a data log from your AP. Single gear, wide open throttle, 3000 rpm to at least 6,000.
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 Old 06-12-2019, 11:48 AM   #4
 
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Hey guys,

I do apologize, I'm very new to this.

The car was fully stock when all this happened. I have contacted the mechanic and am waiting for a reply. He will tell me exactly what work was done, to what components, etc. I know for a fact they fucked with the timing belt and pulley.

As for logging, please bear with me as I am still a complete newb. I will, however get the logs and post them.

In the meantime, the turbo is spooling, I can hear the suction of air. When I replaced the stock intake, I checked to see if the turbine was free wielding, and found no issues on the intake side.

I will keep you guys posted. Thanks!
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 Old 06-12-2019, 12:24 PM   #5
 
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oh! the oil leak was from the timing cover ? It is chain driven (no timing belt) but it is a special keyless timing system where the usual general mechanic could fail more than once.
The damper need to be removed to get there and once you loosen the bolt, the timing will slip and needs to be timed back. You are supposed to replace friction washers and get a new crank bolt along this job. (IT is like a timing job missing the chain and sproket replacement....)

If he failed at this, your engine could be a sticking time bomb, there is interference between piston and valves....
Read that thread to understand what i'm saying
HOW-TO VVT

I would check engine compression to see if the valves are still sealing properly before going deeper into this...And also check if the timing is still spot-on with the required tools.
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 Old 06-12-2019, 03:25 PM   #6
 
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All,

What specific parameters would be best to log off my accessport that will help troubleshoot my problem?
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 Old 06-12-2019, 06:07 PM   #7
 
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Mazdaspeed Data log Parameters to monitor, from my tuna

Accelerator pedal position,
AFR
Boost
Boost air temp
Calculated load
HPFP actual
Injector duty cycle %
Intake temp
Intake valve adv
Knock Retard
LTFT
Maf Voltage
Mass Airflow
RPM
STFT
Spark Advance
Throttle Position
Vehicle Speed
WGDC
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 Old 06-13-2019, 07:43 AM   #8
 
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Honestly, if the mechanic messed with the timing system, I'd stop driving it until you can verify the timing is set correctly.
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 Old 06-13-2019, 10:40 AM   #9
 
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I had another mechanic verify the timing was correct.

I will start logging the parameters mentioned above and post them here once I'm done.
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 Old 06-13-2019, 04:53 PM   #10
 
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Ok guys, its a bit crude but attached are the charts. I started logging while on the highway, let me know if you would rather see logs starting from rest.

Somewhere in the middle I reached almost 6000rpm.
Attached Files
File Type: csv datalog2.csv (395.9 KB, 9 views)
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 Old 06-13-2019, 05:53 PM   #11
 
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Need to see a log in a single gear only, 3rd or 4th, wide open throttle only, from 3,000 rpm to redline. When you make that log, go back and and delete everything that is not that criteria. Don’t need other gears, lower rpm, cruising, part throttle, or anything that is not wide open throttle.
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 Old 06-13-2019, 07:18 PM   #12
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You're running 13.0 AFR at 16psi of boost for a whole 4th gear pull, no bueno. Not sure why there's 0.0 KR for the whole file. You need to make sure you loaded the correct tune for your intake and that you don't have any pre-turbo leaks
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 Old 06-13-2019, 07:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
Ok guys, its a bit crude but attached are the charts. I started logging while on the highway, let me know if you would rather see logs starting from rest.

Somewhere in the middle I reached almost 6000rpm.
Thanks, like @MSMS3; said though, you really should prune that log down to the relevant WOT portion or portions rather than making us hunt it down.

Originally Posted by MSMS3 View Post
Need to see a log in a single gear only, 3rd or 4th, wide open throttle only, from 3,000 rpm to redline. When you make that log, go back and and delete everything that is not that criteria. Don’t need other gears, lower rpm, cruising, part throttle, or anything that is not wide open throttle.
So...like @PabloAtTheBar; said, he reached almost 6000rpm and went WOT to get there in lines 2400-2679 of the log (4k ish to 5.8k ish). in lines 2400-2679 of the log). That data is definitely enough for me to say that he's running dangerously lean at WOT.

@PabloAtTheBar;, you've either got a substantial vacuum leak (think: somewhere between your MAF housing and the turbo), or you have a tune that is utterly wrong for the modifications on your car. Every time you got near WOT, your car was reporting nearly 13:1 AFR. It should be somewhere between 10:1 to 11.8:1 under those conditions, and no higher. You can see that your car is trying to compensate for part of the time as the Short Term Fuel Trims (STFT) jump to around 25%. That means your car is trying to add 25% more fuel to the mixture to compensate for the additional volume of air that it is measuring at the tailpipe.

Additionally, while you're just cruising around, your long term fuel trims (LTFT) are always positive, and often up around 15%. Again, this suggests that unmetered air is entering your engine, and the ECU is trying to compensate by adding fuel. In other words, like I said above: you appear to have a fairly substantial vacuum leak.

Check all the hoses, check all the clamps, make sure nothing is pinched, sliced, cracked, perforated, or otherwise damaged. Try using soapy water if you need to.
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 Old 06-14-2019, 05:32 AM   #14
 
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@Pu Manchu & @Vansquish Thank you so much! Again, I apologize for the crudeness of the log.

The tune I am using is the OTS 2010 MAZDASPEED3 USDM STAGE 1 + SF MAP. I have only installed the SF intake and turbo inlet hose, nothing else.

I have scheduled a smoke test with my mechanic. This, I hope, will determine if there are any leaks in the system. I should know by tomorrow.

Also, I'm wondering if my previous oil leak had something to do with this...could it be possible that I have oil clogging the downpipe or cat and exhaust?
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 Old 06-14-2019, 06:43 AM   #15
 
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
Also, I'm wondering if my previous oil leak had something to do with this...could it be possible that I have oil clogging the downpipe or cat and exhaust?
It's possible. Your airflow appears to be quite low. You should really investigate the lean condition and until you rectify that, dont beat on it.
OTS tunes are really not designed for long term usage. It's more of a 'get it going' type thing. You need a tune properly calibrated to your specific car. Maf sensors are critical on these cars and need to be calibrated for each individual vehicle.
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 Old 06-14-2019, 07:27 AM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
I have scheduled a smoke test with my mechanic. This, I hope, will determine if there are any leaks in the system. I should know by tomorrow. Also, I'm wondering if my previous oil leak had something to do with this...could it be possible that I have oil clogging the downpipe or cat and exhaust?
You'd better ask for a boost pressure test than a smoke test in general. But for this time, like Vanquish said, it is likely to be between maf and turbo and that one have chances to be seen by smoke. Craked TIH or disconnected from the turbo etc...

But for other parts, sometimes a hole would remain sealed under vacuum and won't show the problem with a car idling....But as soon as you give it pressure, the hole open and leak a lot...This would only be seen if you replace your filter by a home depot boost tester...

Clogged cat won't makes your AFR goes that lean unless your o2 is dead but you would have other problems in that case. You definitely miss some air flow reading by either a larger maf hosing than programmed or a massive leak. Usual ots maf are made for a 2.64'' maf ID (unless noted otherwise), do you have anything larger than 2.75'' ?
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 Old 06-15-2019, 04:47 PM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff23spl View Post
Clogged cat won't makes your AFR goes that lean unless your o2 is dead but you would have other problems in that case. You definitely miss some air flow reading by either a larger maf hosing than programmed or a massive leak. Usual ots maf are made for a 2.64'' maf ID (unless noted otherwise), do you have anything larger than 2.75'' ?
I think I might have a clogged cat. What are the differences between a clogged cat and a vacuum leak between the maf and the turbo in our cars? I have a stock 2007 speed 3 and the turbo has been leaking oil for quite a while now.
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 Old 06-15-2019, 04:59 PM   #18
 
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 Old 06-17-2019, 06:32 AM   #19
 
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Originally Posted by gatsby.gt3 View Post
I think I might have a clogged cat. What are the differences between a clogged cat and a vacuum leak between the maf and the turbo in our cars? I have a stock 2007 speed 3 and the turbo has been leaking oil for quite a while now.
I will try to simplify at the best i can:

Maf reading error = bad AFR
A bit like that : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Q1Rl-aPCs



Clogged cat = AFR ok but no (or very little) boost, no power and cat would glow red.
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 Old 06-17-2019, 07:06 AM   #20
 
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I took the car out and did the 3k rpm to 6k rpm test with the mechanic sitting in the passenger seat. He had his engine diagnostic tablet out, directly connected to the computer. From what he read on the diag, the AFR is where it should be as well as all the other parameters were within range of the vehicle.

We will be performing a pressure test this Wednesday. I will keep you guys in the loop.
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 Old 06-17-2019, 07:09 AM   #21
 
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I'm curious what your mechanic thinks AFRs "should be".
Was the test at part throttle or wide open?
If it was part throttle, AFRs don't mean squat. Fuel trims do.
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Wide Open Throttle between 3000rpm and 6000rpm in 4th gear.
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 Old 06-17-2019, 10:32 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
Wide Open Throttle between 3000rpm and 6000rpm in 4th gear.
What were the AFRs during the WOT pull?
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 Old 06-17-2019, 11:26 AM   #24
 
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He showed me all the parameters that he was monitoring and assured me everything was within MS3 tolerances (I can't exactly recall every single parameter he was monitoring). Short term and long term were complimenting each other

If the air to fuel ratios were out, it would have set off some alarms for sure.
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 Old 06-17-2019, 11:54 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
He showed me all the parameters that he was monitoring and assured me everything was within MS3 tolerances (I can't exactly recall every single parameter he was monitoring). Short term and long term were complimenting each other

If the air to fuel ratios were out, it would have set off some alarms for sure.
Well, that isn't much use at all. This engine is not like other engines. It needs quite a lot of fuel quite a lot of the time because it is a DI boosted motor with moderately high compression. A lot of naturally aspirated motors like to be in the 12:1 or 13:1 range at WOT. Our motor needs to be in the 10.5:1 to 11.5:1 range at WOT (up to nearly 20% richer, depending on the conditions).

Also, the idea that "short term and long term were complimenting(sic) each other" may not be particularly helpful. The question is whether or not the short term and long term fuel trims were both registering or not during the WOT pull. Moreover, what were the STFT and LTFT values?

You need to take a datalog, video, or something, and actually record the information that your ECU is generating during a 3000-6000rpm WOT pull in a single gear.
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 Old 06-17-2019, 03:55 PM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff23spl View Post
I will try to simplify at the best i can:

Maf reading error = bad AFR
A bit like that : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46Q1Rl-aPCs



Clogged cat = AFR ok but no (or very little) boost, no power and cat would glow red.
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. I'll do more research next time, my car is getting old, and it doesn't help that I'm a noob.
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 Old 06-17-2019, 04:01 PM   #27
 
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
If the air to fuel ratios were out, it would have set off some alarms for sure.
Not true...sort of.
Alarms in this case would be a CEL light / DTC code for too rich or lean. This code, or alarm, will not trigger until fuel trims reach +/- 25%...which is insane!

At WOT, you get no such enrichments (depending on model/generation) and you will actually be running rich or lean. 25% rich is bad, 25% lean is boom.

Originally Posted by gatsby.gt3 View Post
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. I'll do more research next time, my car is getting old, and it doesn't help that I'm a noob.
Cool story bro. Reading (researching) will help everyone. I've done my fair share here, but I won't stop reading.

Next time, make your own thread if you can't find one relevant to your topic...instead of interrupting someone elses.

Merge post
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 Old 06-18-2019, 08:11 AM   #28
 
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All, I did another datalog - 3rd gear 3000rpm to 6000rpm

Nice and clean

Question: how do you determine the AFR with these graphs?
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 Old 06-18-2019, 08:52 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
All, I did another datalog - 3rd gear 3000rpm to 6000rpm

Nice and clean

Question: how do you determine the AFR with these graphs?
If you use your mouse to move the graphs to the side so that they're not covering the data, then you can see the AFR numbers in column "G". Otherwise, if you want a general sense of your AFRs, you can look at the green line labeled, "AFR" in the second graph.

As I have stated previously, your car is running dangerously lean. Moreover, if your mechanic was viewing the same data and gave you the "all clear," then you need to find a different mechanic who knows this platform.

You can see in the data that for the entire pull from 3001rpm (line 2) to 5920rpm (line 213) your AFR is between 12.64:1 and 14.11:1. At a minimum, based on an ideal 11.5:1 WOT AFR this means your car is receiving at least 9% and as much as 19% less fuel than it should during the pull. Assuming a stock tune, the numbers get even worse. The "ideal" WOT AFR of a stock tune is more like 10.5:1, in which case, your car is receiving between 17% and 26% less fuel than it needs.

Running lean means generating additional heat, friction, and other stresses, as fuel is actually used for cylinder cooling. Your car is not receiving enough fuel for the amount of air that it is taking in. Further evidence of this fact can be seen in column "O" where Short Term Fuel Trims (STFT) are shown. For a large portion of your WOT pull, the car is desperately trying to add between 8.6% and 22% more fuel to the mixture.

You need to find your vacuum leak, or get in touch with an e-tuner who knows these vehicles and can help you with a tune that is customized for the modifications on your car.
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 Old 06-18-2019, 09:11 AM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
All, I did another datalog - 3rd gear 3000rpm to 6000rpm
Nice and clean

Is the ''nice and clean'' related to the car body? Are you going to part it out when the engine will die ? I ask because members may be in needs of some parts ???

We may start a debate about how much days it will last, before it goes Z-Z-boom?
I give it a try: My cristal ball tell me: Mid of July during a very hot day, a short wot after a traffic jam, a rod will past thru the bloc ?


You wanna see AFR? i prefer to use tables than graph, i deleted them to disclose the numbers behind and it looks very bad...The guy that tells you it is ok has no idea about what he was doing.....Even some n/a engine would send more fuel than that under hard wot...
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 Old 06-18-2019, 10:43 AM   #31
 
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@Vansquish Thank yo for the detailed explanation. This puts it all into perspective. Vacuum test is scheduled for tomorrow.
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 Old 06-18-2019, 02:24 PM   #32
 
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Originally Posted by Vansquish View Post
If you use your mouse to move the graphs to the side so that they're not covering the data, then you can see the AFR numbers in column "G". Otherwise, if you want a general sense of your AFRs, you can look at the green line labeled, "AFR" in the second graph.

As I have stated previously, your car is running dangerously lean. Moreover, if your mechanic was viewing the same data and gave you the "all clear," then you need to find a different mechanic who knows this platform.

You can see in the data that for the entire pull from 3001rpm (line 2) to 5920rpm (line 213) your AFR is between 12.64:1 and 14.11:1. At a minimum, based on an ideal 11.5:1 WOT AFR this means your car is receiving at least 9% and as much as 19% less fuel than it should during the pull. Assuming a stock tune, the numbers get even worse. The "ideal" WOT AFR of a stock tune is more like 10.5:1, in which case, your car is receiving between 17% and 26% less fuel than it needs.

Running lean means generating additional heat, friction, and other stresses, as fuel is actually used for cylinder cooling. Your car is not receiving enough fuel for the amount of air that it is taking in. Further evidence of this fact can be seen in column "O" where Short Term Fuel Trims (STFT) are shown. For a large portion of your WOT pull, the car is desperately trying to add between 8.6% and 22% more fuel to the mixture.

You need to find your vacuum leak, or get in touch with an e-tuner who knows these vehicles and can help you with a tune that is customized for the modifications on your car.
That's almost word for word what I said....
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 Old 06-21-2019, 08:10 AM   #33
 
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Vacuum test came back ok. We hooked up a mechanical gauge, no leaks were found.
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Originally Posted by PabloAtTheBar View Post
Vacuum test came back ok. We hooked up a mechanical gauge, no leaks were found.
You need to figure out why you are so lean under boost. AFR should be dropping, down into the 11's or even 10s to protect the engine.

Do a boost leak test. You need an adapter to connect to your intake in place of your air filter an adjustable boost source (air compressor with a regulator set to around 12-15 psi (no more than 18 for these purposes). That boost source should be activated and then listen for a positive pressure air leak and watch the gauge to see if the system is holding boost or if the gauge is dropping.

That is the way to test for a leak on a turbocharged car - leak under pressure.

Here is what one looks like (except mine has a QD air hose fitting):

https://turboboostleaktesters.com/ma...rbo/#gallery-1


If you mechanic does not have one, you can make one from parts at a hardware store, Home Depot or Lowes.

How-To NATOR A Boost Leak Tester for $15


You also might have a bad purge valve, if the actual leak test comes back negative.
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