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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection Have a CDFP fuel pump question? Do you want to add Nitrous or Water Injection to your Mazdaspeed 3/6 ? Please come on in!


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 Old 07-21-2014, 04:26 PM   #1
 
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Default Aquamist and road racing

I regularly see BAT's in the 180-210 range at the track so I finally caved in and pulled the trigger on an Aquamist HFS-4 kit, the kit should be here later this week.

Road racing presents some additional challenges when it comes to putting together a meth system.

First, I use about 4.5 gallons of fuel during a 22-24 minute session. Some organizations run 30-minute sessions so let's plan on burning as much as 6 gallons of fuel per session. Per my conversation with Jeff from Howerton Engineering, I should plan on spraying as much as 20%-25% of fuel burned, thus I could go through as much as 1.5 gallons of water/meth per session.

Second, there is a lot of fuel sloshing. When you buy a 2-gallon meth tank, forget about using all the 2 gallons until the meth runs dry. In the best case scenario -- tall, narrow, and baffled tank -- you will be able to utilize as much as 80% of the tank capacity, in the worst case scenario, only 50%. For my needs, I need at least a 3-gallon tank and I would have to re-fill every single session.

So here are some ideas I have been considering as of late.

I am thinking of running a 6-gallon main tank with a 2-quart or so surge tank, like this:



I looked around at many different 5- and 6-gallon tanks, and this one from DevilsOwn fits the bill best. Here is a mock-up of the tank in my trunk:



I think that the tank will end up this way though due to the location of the cap:



The main tank is not baffled but I can baffle it with wiffle balls. I have found that these wiffle balls are made of polyethylene and thus methanol will not melt them. I am going to order 3 dozen in baseball size, they are 2.87" in diameter and the neck hole of the tank is 3" so I am good to go.

The surge tank needs large 1/2" hose for both the feed and vent, otherwise, there will not be enough flow. In my drawing, the cap is on top, but the way that most tanks work, you will end up with the cap on a side -- it is crucial to glue/plastic weld that cap, otherwise the shit will leak overtime. This is all per Jeff @ Howerton.

I would put the fluid level sensor near the top of the surge tank. This way it will not get stuck between the wiffle balls and if I get a fluid level low light I will know I am really out of meth.

Ideally, I would like to flatten the spare tire area, hence this post.

On the engine side, I will have an aluminum bung welded into the cold pipe right after the BPV flange. Per Jeff @ Howerton, you want to put the nozzle right at the IC exit, closer to the IM is worse. But because we have a BPV, the optimal position is right after it. You want to position the nozzle at 90 degrees to the airstream.

Well, that should be enough for now, I bet I will have more questions as the install process unfolds.

@Justin@Freektune; @Lex;
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 Old 07-21-2014, 05:35 PM   #2
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goddamnit, another thread.
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 Old 07-21-2014, 06:02 PM   #3
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
goddamnit, another thread.
Kinda hard to keep everything in one. I do update my very first post on this forum though with the links to new developments.
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 Old 07-22-2014, 08:59 AM   #4
 
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mmm i loves me some methanol, i keep trying to find an excuse to run it since my mustang is all motor lol. Maybe eventually i'll come up with something.
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 Old 07-22-2014, 09:23 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
mmm i loves me some methanol, i keep trying to find an excuse to run it since my mustang is all motor lol. Maybe eventually i'll come up with something.
Spray and then advance more ignition timingz.
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 Old 07-22-2014, 09:34 AM   #6
 
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Originally Posted by Mauro_Penguin View Post
Spray and then advance more ignition timingz.
Its not worth much NA, but it would still probably help. I'd want it mostly for this God Awful South Texas heat and humidity. 105* Heat index today... aint nobody got time for that lol! My car RIPPED when it was like 40* out. Its just that every time I think of the $500 some ought dollars a good kit with stainless lines and a MAF based controller costs, I find something else to spend it on.

The girlfriend and I just moved in together and we needed curtains for our room. She wanted a curtain rod that was flat white, $3 and got the job done... I wanted the one that was like $26, but was a nice brushed steel and looked really nice. Never in my life thought I would be arguing about curtain rods, I just .... I don't even know any more.
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 Old 07-22-2014, 02:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Its not worth much NA, but it would still probably help. I'd want it mostly for this God Awful South Texas heat and humidity. 105* Heat index today... aint nobody got time for that lol! My car RIPPED when it was like 40* out. Its just that every time I think of the $500 some ought dollars a good kit with stainless lines and a MAF based controller costs, I find something else to spend it on.

The girlfriend and I just moved in together and we needed curtains for our room. She wanted a curtain rod that was flat white, $3 and got the job done... I wanted the one that was like $26, but was a nice brushed steel and looked really nice. Never in my life thought I would be arguing about curtain rods, I just .... I don't even know any more.
Women in adult cohabitat lifestyles and the decisions they bring you to make. Welcome to the club my friend. Over time you'll end up spending more money on stuff like that, resist and give into your grease monkey urges.

And now back on topic, those aquamist kits are very nice!
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 Old 07-23-2014, 04:35 PM   #8
 
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And the kit has arrived.
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 Old 07-24-2014, 07:45 AM   #9
 
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Just noticed that the baseball size wiffle balls have slots only on one side:



That's not good, as they will probably flip on the solid side and catch methanol in there. So I was looking at the golf sized wiffle balls that have slots all over:



but they are so small I would have to stuff like 300 of them in a 6-gallon tank and they would reduce tank capacity pretty drastically.

Not a biggie, I thought, I will just drill extra holes in baseball wiffle balls, pain but it can be done. On a whim, I contacted the company and they can make me a batch of baseball size wiffle balls with slots on both sides, they will simply fuse 2 slotted hemispheres together!!!!! It is going to take a week and the price is only $15.75 a dozen + shipping, here we go.
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 Old 07-24-2014, 07:48 AM   #10
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lol. Did you tell them what you were doing with them?
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 Old 07-24-2014, 07:59 AM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
lol. Did you tell them what you were doing with them?
No, I bet they are like "why on earth would someone want slots on both sides?"
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Hey, @Code Monkey;

Earlier you said "you want to mount the nozzle 90 degrees to the airflow".

Not trying to start a battle here, just curious if I've missed that point in my prior studies.
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 Old 07-24-2014, 08:29 AM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by CosmicArkie View Post
Hey, @Code Monkey;

Earlier you said "you want to mount the nozzle 90 degrees to the airflow".

Not trying to start a battle here, just curious if I've missed that point in my prior studies.
Im pretty sure methanol nozzles are usually mounted perpendicular to the air stream, I think that is what he meant...
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 Old 07-24-2014, 08:36 AM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by Addikted To Boost View Post
Im pretty sure methanol nozzles are usually mounted perpendicular to the air stream, I think that is what he meant...
Yeah, I know that's the usual, easiest method, but I'm curious if it is really the best way and if he was quoting something "authoritative".

Like, how much is reaching the opposite side of the intake and bouncing off in larger droplets, etc.
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 Old 07-24-2014, 08:43 AM   #15
 
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VIrtually none. Most of it is vaporized instantly, and the rest is being blown down stream. Even if the droplets did coagulate, they'd likely be vaporized or break up before they reached the cylinder. Assuming you are spraying the appropriate amount*
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 Old 07-24-2014, 08:55 AM   #16
 
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I just remember seeing some pre-turbo installations with the nozzle suspended centrally to the intake and watching some of the spray bouncing around the periphery...

Now, it may well have been excessive spray causing the issue, but I was just curious about his statement.
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 Old 07-24-2014, 09:10 AM   #17
 
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Pre turbo and pre throttle body are quite different. Pre - turbo you are spraying almost directly at the turbo, over a much smaller gap, so the importance of not having large "droplets" is much higher. When you think about spraying before your throttle body, there are a lot of turns, and dips, and twists before the methanol (if any is left) actually makes it to the cylinder anyways. More than enough chance for some of the mist to collide and coagulate.

Remember, its main purpose is to absorb heat and evaporate anyways.
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 Old 07-24-2014, 09:12 AM   #18
 
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I think if you spray pre-turbo, you want to spray right at the compressor, so parallel with the airflow.

For the cold pipe, by saying 90* I meant perpendicular to the airflow, Jeff @ Howerton said it works the best, you want random mixing in your spray.
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 Old 07-25-2014, 08:18 PM   #19
 
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Code Monkey, why not mount the DO tank the first way, and use a remote fill? You could probably use it with the top vent.

Originally Posted by CosmicArkie View Post
I just remember seeing some pre-turbo installations with the nozzle suspended centrally to the intake and watching some of the spray bouncing around the periphery...
You ultimately want a fine mist distributed evenly. Some have mounted nozzle right before the turbo so that the nut on the end shreds the fluid into tiny droplets, and there is also less "movement" near the center of the turbo, so damage is less likely.


Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
mmm i loves me some methanol, i keep trying to find an excuse to run it since my mustang is all motor lol. Maybe eventually i'll come up with something.
Nitrous plus meth. Use an aquatec pump but turn down the pressure to 150 psi. Should run fine when armed with the nitrous. Use a pill 2-3X the gasoline pill. Meth will have a much greater stoich range than gasoline, so tuning won't be so difficult.
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 Old 07-26-2014, 01:04 PM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by Dust View Post
Code Monkey, why not mount the DO tank the first way, and use a remote fill? You could probably use it with the top vent.



You ultimately want a fine mist distributed evenly. Some have mounted nozzle right before the turbo so that the nut on the end shreds the fluid into tiny droplets, and there is also less "movement" near the center of the turbo, so damage is less likely.




Nitrous plus meth. Use an aquatec pump but turn down the pressure to 150 psi. Should run fine when armed with the nitrous. Use a pill 2-3X the gasoline pill. Meth will have a much greater stoich range than gasoline, so tuning won't be so difficult.

Lol I've thought about it before, and I think we have actually discussed it before. Nitrous + Methanol is apparently quite potent
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 Old 07-26-2014, 01:44 PM   #21
 
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I talked with NX on ls1tech about it, and a turbo buick guy was running it for a while. If I ever found myself in a v8 I would be greatly tempted to start with a 50 shot. It's supposed to be easier to tune as timing doesn't have to be pulled.

Having 4.5 meth kits in the apartment right now keeps me from going N/A though.
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 Old 08-01-2014, 10:48 AM   #22
 
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Wiffle balls with slots in both hemispheres just shipped, I got a follow up email "May I ask if you are using them as baffles in a tank?"
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 Old 08-02-2014, 09:02 AM   #23
 
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"Baffle Balls!"
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 Old 08-02-2014, 09:39 AM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Wiffle balls with slots in both hemispheres just shipped, I got a follow up email "May I ask if you are using them as baffles in a tank?"
Lol you should tell them no, you just like making it harder for kids to hit wiffleballs. Takes them down a notch. Cocky little pricks.

I wonder if you're the first to order from them for this purpose.

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 Old 08-02-2014, 12:35 PM   #25
 
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Might want to inquire if they've got any info on adverse effects of using as baffles. One never knows....
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 Old 08-03-2014, 07:29 PM   #26
 
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Just a thought. Water weighs 8.34 lbs per gallon and methanol 6.6. If you are only going to use 1.5 gallons per session, why add 20 lbs?

Too late now, but
---- 806-689 ---- Compact 5L tank with bracket (internally baffled -drilled version only) - aquamist-direct.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXszFa3MkKM

He is already looking into mounting two together.
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 Old 08-03-2014, 07:40 PM   #27
 
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^ A five-quart tank will not do, today I was running 30 minute sessions, went through about 5.5 gallons of gas in a session so I would have to spray about 5 quarts per session, even assuming a very optimistic 80% utilization under road racing conditions, I would need a 7-quart tank at a minimum, let's make it a 2-gallon tank. The last hour at the track was a "happy hour" and you could drive straight for an hour if you wanted to, with a smaller tank, I would have to break mid-session to refuel.

I am also underweight in the rear on the passenger side so putting extra 30-40 pounds there will not hurt.
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 Old 08-03-2014, 07:45 PM   #28
 
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Didn't know your situation. But you can mount two together, and always still use the 5 qt with the 2 qt surge for your 7 qts. Use fat hose on both side for a little extra too
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 Old 08-03-2014, 07:49 PM   #29
 
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Yeah, that could be doable. But let's see how those wiffle balls work first, if I could somehow glue them inside the tank (with meth resistant glue) I could probably run the setup without the surge tank.
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 Old 08-03-2014, 07:57 PM   #30
 
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I think what you have, if you can set it up right, should work without the surge tank, minus of course the level sender. The Howerton 2 gallon i have has, pardon my french, the balls jammed in there pretty good. Without prying one out I don't know if they would come out. You might order some of the smaller balls for use at the top to cram into the open spaces to lock the bigger balls in place, or cut the bigger balls in half and cram into the crannies.
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 Old 08-03-2014, 08:06 PM   #31
 
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Yeah, this is one option, the balls crammed in so tight they do not move much.

Another option that I was thinking of would be to just throw in like a dozen balls so they always float on top (will have to check first if they float or sink) and this could possibly allow me to run a level sensor in the main tank -- as the mixture would go lower and lower the balls would eventually force the level sensor arm down hopefully without jamming it. I will test my theories once I have everything here.
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 Old 08-04-2014, 06:44 AM   #32
 
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I run 2 6 quart tanks in my front fender. They are joined by a hose so I fill one bottle and they level out. Lasts me about 3 x 15 min sessions on track.

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 Old 08-05-2014, 05:51 AM   #33
 
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@Code Monkey; i forgot if you mentioned already, but what size nozzle are you running?
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2001 Miata - Basically stock

... Something, somewhere, went horribly wrong.

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 Old 08-05-2014, 06:27 AM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
@Code Monkey; i forgot if you mentioned already, but what size nozzle are you running?
I ordered the kit with 0.9 mm and 1.0 mm nozzles. Will probably use the 0.9 mm first and see how it goes.

Yesterday I took the cold pipe to my welder, should have it back later this week.

The guy at work who will be doing the install said August 16-17 may work for him, we will see, he is married with one kid with another one on the way so we get to it when he has time, no pressure on my part.
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 Old 08-05-2014, 06:58 AM   #35
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I'm amused by the fact that this particular install used off the shelf parts other than custom whiffle balls. FYI though it would make them easier to hit one side makes it easier to throw curves.
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 Old 08-05-2014, 09:54 AM   #36
 
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so about 4 gph on the 1.0mm. interesting to see the effects that will have on temps. your poor motor may not even know what to do with itself haha.
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- 2010 Speed3 W/ GTx3576 ~500 whp -
-Sold-
-Mustang 5.0 450 whp / 352 wtq
-Sold-

Current:
2012 Loaded Speed3 - Stock
2001 Miata - Basically stock

... Something, somewhere, went horribly wrong.

Fastest gtx3576 powered, 6th port injected, 25% e85 fueled, stock suspension, silver mazdaspeed 3 in South Houston. Because its my internet record, and I said so.
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 Old 08-05-2014, 02:27 PM   #37
 
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And here they are.

@Dust; do you happen to know what wiffle balls are in your tank from Howerton? On mine, I have in all caps

Code:
MADE IN U.S.A. MFG. UNDER U.S. REG. NO'S 1580220-1645378
Jeff from Howerton said "Meth eat balls, the ones we use are the only I've seen that don't melt." I did not ask him what brand he was using, not sure if he would share that information.
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 Old 08-05-2014, 03:39 PM   #38
 
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Originally Posted by Dust View Post
Code Monkey, why not mount the DO tank the first way, and use a remote fill? You could probably use it with the top vent.



You ultimately want a fine mist distributed evenly. Some have mounted nozzle right before the turbo so that the nut on the end shreds the fluid into tiny droplets, and there is also less "movement" near the center of the turbo, so damage is less likely.




Nitrous plus meth. Use an aquatec pump but turn down the pressure to 150 psi. Should run fine when armed with the nitrous. Use a pill 2-3X the gasoline pill. Meth will have a much greater stoich range than gasoline, so tuning won't be so difficult.
I wonder if nitrous could be used with meth via a mechanical injection system like the RX-7 guys are using

Mechanical Pre-Turbo Water Injection - Wannaspeed


Nitrous could be used to pressurize the tank and spray the meth pre-throttle (would surely require an aluminum tank to sustain the higher pressure needed to spray post-turbo)

Attached is a diagram of the system basics
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 Old 08-05-2014, 04:08 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
And here they are.

@Dust; do you happen to know what wiffle balls are in your tank from Howerton? On mine, I have in all caps

Code:
MADE IN U.S.A. MFG. UNDER U.S. REG. NO'S 1580220-1645378
Jeff from Howerton said "Meth eat balls, the ones we use are the only I've seen that don't melt." I did not ask him what brand he was using, not sure if he would share that information.
That picture is the weirdest thing I have seen all day.
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 Old 08-05-2014, 06:32 PM   #40
 
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Interedasting, they float in tap water and sink in a 50/50 mix....
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