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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection Have a CDFP fuel pump question? Do you want to add Nitrous or Water Injection to your Mazdaspeed 3/6 ? Please come on in!


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 Old 10-02-2011, 09:18 AM   #1
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Default CDFP Pump Failures

so this is a long story and maybe I am making more of this than it really is.

Short story:

PTP pump ran for ~20K miles and then started to fail with WOT pressure drops to 200,400 etc.
Ordered CPE pump and installed it about 4 months ago.
Problem immediately disappeared and car has run great since
now CPE pump is failing with WOT pressure drops like before. Prab 5K miles on CPE pump.

Long story:

So I sent my PTP pump back to John and after he took a look at it he called me and indicated there didn't appear to be anything wrong with the pump. He said the internals looked like a brand new set he would install in a new pump and send out. I told him I didn't have an answer but only had the log I sent him showing the momentary drops in pressure.

I suggested maybe it was the spill valve but he didn't think the symptoms fit. You can see in the logs the pressure drop is only for a split second and it immediately gets back to full pressure. IIRC he said with a spill valve failure it would take time for the pressure to build back up. I then asked about the RV and he said the same thing, time would be required to rebuild the pressure.

Anyway he didn't have an answer but said he would send me a new pump along with my old internals so I could inspect them.

Fastforward 4 months and now my CPE pump is doing the exact same thing.

Is this just a coincidence that both pumps failed and consider this:

The PTP pump didn't show any signs of piston wear.
The CPE pump only had 5K miles on it and they very rarely fail.

Other notes of interest:

PTP pump was run on 93 petrol only
The CPE pump was run mostly on petrol except for the last ~900 miles which has been run on an E25-30 mix. I doubt the E has anything to do with the failure.

Soooooooo, to the fuel experts out there, any ideas why this would happen and it would appear to be something with the pump or related hardware b/c when the pump is replaced the problem goes away.

Could some other hardware in the system cause the pumps to work harder than normal and cause them to fail, such as ITFP or RV issues?

I have the new PTP pump sitting here and am about to install it today and will report back with my findings. I have to believe replacing the pump will resolve the issue.

The areas in question are highlighted in the attached logs.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Attached Files
File Type: xls PTP-datalog3.xls (21.5 KB, 26 views)
File Type: xls CPE-Stutter-blowout-1.xls (34.0 KB, 25 views)
File Type: xls CPE-Stutter-blowout-2.xls (34.5 KB, 19 views)
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 Old 10-02-2011, 09:22 AM   #2
 
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Did you use gloves!?!

I keed Dano, good luck with this strange, strange issue.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 09:25 AM   #3
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nitrite always LOL
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 Old 10-02-2011, 09:26 AM   #4
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IMO, the problem is with the fuel rail pressure sensor, not the actual pressure...
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 Old 10-02-2011, 09:30 AM   #5
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Sorry I don't have any answers for you, but good luck I am having a ton of fuel pressure/pump issues myself so I can feel your pain. Look forward to seeing your findings today.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 09:50 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 View Post
IMO, the problem is with the fuel rail pressure sensor, not the actual pressure...
car stutters, misfires etc during the pressure drop...it appears to be starved for fuel.

both times it started out as an occasional stutter so I thought it was blowout...then it progressively got worse over the course of say a month....now I can't even go WOT without the car falling apart.

so if the sensor is having issues will it tell the ECU to stop fueling?

and why would replacing the pump resolve the issue for a period of months?

thanks

BTW congrats on the Ducati...I would love to have a streetfighter...but I aint that rich...LOL
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 Old 10-02-2011, 09:54 AM   #7

 
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One of the logs is titled "blowout", are you actually experiencing blowout or is the only symptom the log?

I would also try to minimize the # of parameters to see if you can catch more than one line.


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 Old 10-02-2011, 09:57 AM   #8
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I thought it was blowout at first b/c it would only stutter once or twice during a run and this time around I added H2O in my WMI and was running more boost and E85.

turns out its is the pump I would guess at this point.

I may just take the spillvalve/solenoid assembly from the PTP pump and install in the CPE pump and see if the issue is resolved.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 09:57 AM   #9
 
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Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 View Post
IMO, the problem is with the fuel rail pressure sensor, not the actual pressure...
while this makes sense you have to thinkof other things that may play into the effects.

if indeed it is the pressure sensor and the car is still getting the correct fuel pressure it could be that our retarded ecu's may be doing something to correct the issue or protect your motor from the issue.

you check the actual housing?....

then again, if it is the sensor and not the pump then why would his car be temp fixed after installing new pump?

this is indeed an odd issue....

good luck
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 Old 10-02-2011, 10:04 AM   #10
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indeed odd.

I didn't get the first housing back from John...but anyway my pump from CPE is a totally different pump experiencing the exact same issue. IDK
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 Old 10-02-2011, 10:08 AM   #11
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Its 100% your intank pump. Jumpingjackson just went through this exact issue
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The stutter could be over fueling as well if you subscribe to "it's the sensor" theory. I think it is not the sensor simply because then pump swap fixed the issue before.

In the "its the sensor" theory, Car sees low fuel pressure, so it extends the pulsewidth causing over-fueling and spark blowout.

It's not impossible for it to be a spill valve issue. Rail pressure will change very fast because it's an incompressible fluid. Just a couple missed cycles on the fuel pump due to the spill valve not opening could be enough to cause the drops you see, followed right away by a couple full strokes on a upgraded pump with plenty of excess capacity could restore the pressure very quickly.

At 6000rpm the HPFP is executing 150 cycles a second. Even with our improved logging rate, if the spill valve is intermittently sticking we don't have enough resolution to really diagnose it. If we were logging at a similar rate of 150hz then you could say for sure it's not the spill valve starting to stick.


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 Old 10-02-2011, 10:09 AM   #13
 
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Intank pump?
Idk noob contribution.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 10:11 AM   #14
 
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How does your cam and cam follower look?
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 Old 10-02-2011, 10:13 AM   #15

 
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
Its 100% your intank pump. Jumpingjackson just went through this exact issue
Thread? I am always interested in learning more failure modes.

Theory says ITFP failures would show up\get worse at peak power, this seems almost random.


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 Old 10-02-2011, 10:43 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
Its 100% your intank pump. Jumpingjackson just went through this exact issue
ok..i'll bite on that and have already discussed it with Dustin.

Are you saying the ITFP flaking out is causing premature failure of the CDFP?

Cuz if you are just implying the ITFP is going out it the total cause that doesn't add up. If that was the case the issue wouldn't resolve itself with a new pump.

and yes does JJ have a thread?
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 Old 10-02-2011, 10:49 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Mchart View Post
How does your cam and cam follower look?
checked them when I pulled the PTP pump...pristine...if they were bad the new pump would have failed immediately anyway.

as it is the CPE pump has run for ~5000 miles.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 11:00 AM   #18
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you can actually see my AF getting close to 13 with a 12.0 commanded even in the rows you don't see FP drop...this indicates under fueling not over fueling and I bet if the logging rate were higher you'd see FP drop at those locations as well.

ok...I am about to go replace the spill/sol only and see if this resolves the issue. a much faster process LOL

IDK shit about how the internals should look but the piston John sent back to me only has some very slight black rings [almost looks like a barcode] around the piston where it rides inside the bore. nothing your fingernail can even detect. and they are circular not longitudinal.

bore has the original hash marks in it nothing else.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 11:27 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
car stutters, misfires etc during the pressure drop...it appears to be starved for fuel.

both times it started out as an occasional stutter so I thought it was blowout...then it progressively got worse over the course of say a month....now I can't even go WOT without the car falling apart.

so if the sensor is having issues will it tell the ECU to stop fueling?

and why would replacing the pump resolve the issue for a period of months?

thanks

BTW congrats on the Ducati...I would love to have a streetfighter...but I aint that rich...LOL
Ok, I kinda re-read the thread and the only viable problem I can see is possibly a poor connection at the spill valve. Dirty, bent, spread, connector pins. When you change the pump you remove and replace the connector and may clean the crud off it? IDK, but try to clean it REAL good with spray cleaner and use a scribe point to tweak the female pins so they grip the male pins real good.

You know, kinda like when you ask the Dr to throw a few extra stitches in the vag after the kid is born to snug it up a bit....

It could also be the wire harness chaffing against another part of the car.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 11:37 AM   #20
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Lol on snugging the vag up.

I just pulled the connector in prep to pull the sol and need to go get a wrench for it. I'll work on the pins then test it on my trip to get the wrenches. Any idea in the mm of that booger. Its like 1-1/8 or slightly bigger.

Thanks Joe


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 Old 10-02-2011, 11:39 AM   #21
 
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Is the spill valve a piezoelectric device? Does ethanol affect this somehow? (build up = extra mass or vibration on the sensor?
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 Old 10-02-2011, 11:43 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
Lol on snugging the vag up.

I just pulled the connector in prep to pull the sol and need to go get a wrench for it. I'll work on the pins then test it on my trip to get the wrenches. Any idea in the mm of that booger. Its like 1-1/8 or slightly bigger.

Thanks Joe


Tappin
Spill valve nut is 32mm
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 Old 10-02-2011, 11:46 AM   #23
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thanks..

@phate has had to take his apart a few times but hes on 100%e..

my first failure was on 100% petrol and I am only on ~e25

I will of course inspect the valve once i get it out but doubt I'll take it completely apart like phate did.

still want to get the pump warrantied by CPE.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 11:56 AM   #24
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Jj doesent have a thread but send him a pm. He went through 3 pumps before he figured it was his in tank. Your situation sounds identical to his. The reason your cpe pump worked right away is cause I think the low flow from the intank actually destroys the cdfp hence y a new one would work just fine
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 Old 10-02-2011, 12:12 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
Jj doesent have a thread but send him a pm. He went through 3 pumps before he figured it was his in tank. Your situation sounds identical to his. The reason your cpe pump worked right away is cause I think the low flow from the intank actually destroys the cdfp hence y a new one would work just fine
Yeah if the intank pump is weak OR the High Volume Fuel Pump Relay/Resistor is bad the HPFP would cavitate and it could eventually smoke the internals... The intank pump has two speeds controlled by a relay and a big resistor mounted on driver swide frame rail...
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 Old 10-02-2011, 12:24 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
Jj doesent have a thread but send him a pm. He went through 3 pumps before he figured it was his in tank. Your situation sounds identical to his. The reason your cpe pump worked right away is cause I think the low flow from the intank actually destroys the cdfp hence y a new one would work just fine
Lol

I was txting him yesterday and he never mentioned it. Maybe he was distracted by garage nurse.

Anyway to test itfp?

edit: reading fail on my phone...i was txting DJ not jj...hahah




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 Old 10-02-2011, 12:47 PM   #27
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well it wasn't the connector.

so it sounds like we have at least two possible running theories here:

1) the actual pump is failing due to low ITFP pressure. however this would mean John was incorrect in his assessment of the pump I returned to him.

2) the pump is good as John indicated and it is something in the spill valve/solenoid/wiring.

I am about to find out one way or the other....headed out to replace the valve in my CPE pump.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
Jj doesent have a thread but send him a pm. He went through 3 pumps before he figured it was his in tank. Your situation sounds identical to his. The reason your cpe pump worked right away is cause I think the low flow from the intank actually destroys the cdfp hence y a new one would work just fine
I sent JJ a PM...
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 Old 10-02-2011, 01:34 PM   #28
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the fail continues....

swapped out spill valves to no avail...admittedly there was a small chance that was the issue but it was a simple 5 minute operation.

on to pump replacement.

BTW the parts of the spill valve you can see without taking it apart look brand new...no buildup whatsoever.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 01:57 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
ok..i'll bite on that and have already discussed it with Dustin.

Are you saying the ITFP flaking out is causing premature failure of the CDFP?

Cuz if you are just implying the ITFP is going out it the total cause that doesn't add up. If that was the case the issue wouldn't resolve itself with a new pump.

and yes does JJ have a thread?
That should be true. I tested an alternate CDFP for just a few minutes when my fuel pressure was dropping, and it held >1600psi....so I thought it was the internals. Pulled them and replaced them with known working stock internals, and found they would hold pressure sometimes, other times not. Fast forward some time and the issue became more frequent and with worse pressure drop. ITFP was to blame.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 02:00 PM   #30
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FML
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 Old 10-02-2011, 03:26 PM   #31
 
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I had this problem put a volt meter on your intank pump and make sure u have 13 or 13.5 v at wot and put a pressure gauge on the feed line under the hood and monitor pressure. It shouldn't go under 60 psi I believe under wot. Mine did and I was popping hpfp.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 03:33 PM   #32
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I know you have to pull the tank to remove the ITFP but can you get to the wires from in the car so I can check voltage.

I'll have to source some parts to rig up a gauge for the feed line.

have I said this sucks yet LOL
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 Old 10-02-2011, 04:10 PM   #33
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well double FML..

new CDFP installed and same thing...

guess its time to order an ITFP

anything else could cause this besides the ITFP?
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 Old 10-02-2011, 04:21 PM   #34
 
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It's a long shot, but I had this happen after 35k with my KMD's and it was all related to another load cap of sorts lol. I hit 2.4+ with the k04 and never had this issue, but now 2.2+ with the GTX and fp drops a lot no matter where all my load targets/limiters are. I know it's load related cuz scaling the MAF fixed it 100%.

Not sure why it just started acting this way after 35K but whatever. Try a quick scale to keep you at or under 2.0ld and see what happens... Can't hurt to try
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 Old 10-02-2011, 04:58 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Realgib3 View Post
It's a long shot, but I had this happen after 35k with my KMD's and it was all related to another load cap of sorts lol. I hit 2.4+ with the k04 and never had this issue, but now 2.2+ with the GTX and fp drops a lot no matter where all my load targets/limiters are. I know it's load related cuz scaling the MAF fixed it 100%.

Not sure why it just started acting this way after 35K but whatever. Try a quick scale to keep you at or under 2.0ld and see what happens... Can't hurt to try
You guys' cars suck if that's the case. I've now seen 3.8 load and my car is peachy

Dano - Let me know about the ITFP.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 05:17 PM   #36
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No need to drop the tank. Follows socks guide he did for his dual pumps. Also a new pump alone is only 158 but don't get caught buying the whole assembly for 250. Also replace your filter while your in there.
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 Old 10-02-2011, 05:39 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
You guys' cars suck if that's the case. I've now seen 3.8 load and my car is peachy

Dano - Let me know about the ITFP.
I'll PM you...I def want a new ITFP.... I don't want to fry my new PTP pump.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
No need to drop the tank. Follows socks guide he did for his dual pumps. Also a new pump alone is only 158 but don't get caught buying the whole assembly for 250. Also replace your filter while your in there.
I seem to remember something about that...didn't he hole saw a bigger opening in the floor pan?

I am not opposed to doing that...stupid Mazda "engineers" I use that term loosely. Why not make the in-car access big enough to replace the pump !?!

hum...hasn't another car manufacturer or two made their intank pump accessible from under the back seat....hum...idk...oh ....yes....at least 1 I know of...scoobies...

/rant

thanks guy for all the suggestions.
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Actually the tank was designed to just be dropped a little and then u can sneak it by the hole in the back seat. F that cut the hole bigger haha
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 Old 10-02-2011, 05:46 PM   #39
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seems mazda has problems lining up their holes....kinda like the front undercover oil filter hole..

hahahahaha

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 Old 10-02-2011, 05:58 PM   #40
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The tank isn't hard or very time consuming to drop in these cars. Start to finish, with a break or two in between, was ~3 hours for mine.
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