Intersting information related to cdfp failures/ wear

[phailerider]

Thanks to owning a gti, and my relationship with cpe... ive come upon some info, you all may find intersting.

Bottom line..... kmd/ autotech replacement internals for HPFP's have been having a few issues in the VW community. People have been taking their pumps apart to inspect the wear after some mileage and apparently the cam followers are wearing really badly when using the KMD internals, and instead of fixing the problem KMD now offers a replacement cam follower for $90, and they say it only 'slows' the wearing of the follower.

kmd cam follower - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com

APR pump follower after 10k miles:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d9...llower10k2.jpg

KMD follower after 13k miles:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d9...a/DSC00759.jpg


Also, KMD has released their "V2" as they call it, which is a TOTALLY redesigned kit. I imagine that might worry some people to know that KMD had to totally redesign their kit. Apparently the pump seizes and the piston shears away from the plunger, which is obviously no good. The KMD kit seems to be the "go-to" kit as far as internals go, but I've never even heard anyone bring this up yet in the Mazda community. It will be interesting to see what happens, as the vws were far ahead of us as far as these pumps going out. Incidentally, as far as I know, the APR pumps have not had any problems whatsoever. That includes both the vw versions, and the cpe/mazda ones.

KMD HPFP rebuild V.2.0 - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com

Originally Posted by staulkor I have a KMD pump. I am on my second one. When I installed the first one, dirt must have got in the pump and it seized in less than 150 miles. KMD was awesome about it and sent me a new one real quick. Ive been going about 4000-5000 miles with it with no problems.

Any bad feedback on KMD pump? - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com


Another:

Fuel Pump Seized - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com


More:

KMD vs Autotech FP - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com


Anyway, these examples are EVERYWHERE.... The Autotech and KMD internals are rumored to be the same parts too. They were "revised" at exactly the same time, and in the same way. That's speculation, but it seems pretty odd anyway.

Has anyone looked at their cam followers after getting some mileage on their KMD pumps. Also, if it isn't common knowledge.....the pumps were redesigned at some point, you might might want to find out if you have "V1" or "V2".

Originally Posted by Kid55 Hi guys,i did search but nothing solid came up. I would like to know how do you know if you have the Revised/Ver2 KMD hpfp? Or if KMD started selling the revised version a while back already,that would rule out the possibility of the old version still being sold. you take a picture of it post it up and I'll tell you. The ond version on the piston was a uniformed color the new one has two different colors. on the end of the piston specifically is a dead give away not the tip/plunger side the other end that works the comrpession has a flat bottom with a darker grey section then it leads into the uniformed colored piston.

And again, finally.... the CPE/APR pumps that many of you have been getting from me or cpe, to my knowledge have not been having any problems. In the VW community, the vast majority of gtis use the apr unit, and there havent been any failures. In the mazda community, as weell... CPEs rebadged apr pumps, which are weight balanced and individually flow tested just simply seem to be holding up better.

For a long time now, ive basically said and felt that the CPE unit was not necessarily a better bet. Maybe it was, in theory only. The results didnt necessarily indicate that there was much difference tho. That, for me, now changes. Even the comments Jon at ptp has made about his observations now have alot more weight. I never thought id say that, but now i am. Anyway....I thought you guys should know.

[Deadman]

nice post randy

[gsrtype1]

damm, but has any speed pump failed?

[superskaterxes]

i dont understand where this cam follower thingie is on the pump itself. any better picts? where should i be looking?


EDIT: found it

http://www.kmdtuning.com/store/image...uctions(1).pdf

i havent heard of anyone even mentioning this piece. i certainly diddent take it out when i did my pump.

[Grim]

what internals are the pg internals?

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Grim what internals are the pg internals?

lol KMD

[kingpin748]

Originally Posted by Grim what internals are the pg internals?

Indeed...

[Grim]

ahhhhh,crap.hmm i hope i dont get ant problems with mine,or ill just get the ptp internals.

[phailerider]

due to the nature of my relationship with both Ken and CPE.... i dont want to weigh in much more to this discussion. I used both pumps on my car and i never had issues with either. If the kmd/autotech internals that have been sold as "kits", in this community were gonna fail...it was always my believe that it would occur immediately.

Im in communication with LOTS of dudes, and i have not heard of any internals failing over LONG TERM use, in the mazda community. that needs to be clear at this point.

But... again, that doesnt mean it has, or hasnt been happening. this thread was to bring up discussion for you all. I sell apr/cpe pumps and i dont want this to be construed as some big sales pitch. Obviously mine cost a hell of alot more, and that may or may not be worth it. Thats for all you to decide.

[Darksun280]

My KMD ones are about to blow/seize. Its making so much noise its not even funny

[gsrtype1]

Damm...

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 Maybe its a problem limited to vw? we havent heard any speed pumps failing.

Actually there has been a few and trust me I'm next...... Like I said in other posts it sounds like I have a spun bearing thats how loud my pump is. but the noise goes up and down with fuel pressure not revs

[superskaterxes]

phil can u take some picts of what yours look like?

[MarkyMark]

I had my CPE pump in for about 8K before the motor blew and my follower looks flawless. i'll post pics tonight.

[gsrtype1]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Actually there has been a few and trust me I'm next...... Like I said in other posts it sounds like I have a spun bearing thats how loud my pump is. but the noise goes up and down with fuel pressure not revs

dang, mine still just makes that light rubbing metal with your fingers noise when the engine is cold here and there it doesn't tick or anything.

[dread]

wow very good detective work. Although, some may find a conflict of interest here, it is apparant from the VW discussions that the KMD pumps are flawed. I was about to buy these and I will avoid them now. Is it possible to buy the APR internals and how much do they cost? Obviously the pump from cpe is the safest bet, but I don't think I can swing that much money.

[CraigHJr]

I have read up on the VW issues as a friend has a GTI. The worn follower is a big issue and the car will not run right. The Mazdas are only seeing noise at this point. All pumps becides CP-E's use this kit. I am curious as to what PTP is working on as well as Kevin "Haltech" because according to his signiture he runs his own pump.

[superskaterxes]

well is the Vdub head and cam and pump identical to ours? maby its just a flaw in clearance or something or the design cause i cant imagine they are the same exact thing.

[Ghost Rider]

scary crap right there. I was planning on going with the CP-e anyway, but damn...

[kingpin748]

Seems like a great deal of speculation at this point. I don't have any noises from my pump.

Somebody needs to open theirs up and take a look. I'm too lazy.

But maybe this can turn into a shitstorm! We need to get things rolling around here!

[ATE BALLER]

I would have to say that we need to confirm that our cam profile for the pump is the same before assuming this is going to apply to us. It is a consern, deffinately, but the part that is causing the wearing would be the cam lobe. In all honesty, it's 50/50 on that being the same material composition and profile, but who knows. Hey Pale, you have both cars. Think you could pull the cams on both of em and check? j/k lol

[CraigHJr]

I am pretty sure when I looked in the Mazda head with my pump removed there is a 3 pointed rocker that is the very end of the cam shaft. The VW failing followers are in the head not inside the pumps right. When building the Mazda pump I didn't remove any bucket shaped followers like I remember the pics of the VW being.

[phailerider]

the world is definitely not coming to an end here, i just thought it would make for interesting discussion if some of you guys with some older pumps took a look.

john at ptp, has been harping BIGTIME on this and i always felt it was nonsense until i did some digging. jordan had talked to some engineers at apr, and apparently it is a VERY big deal with the vw guys as far as competiton goes. I dont think we have the same issues here, just cause bottom line is that, at least in the short term.... these pumps have not been failing. i know Phil said he knew of some... i wish hed share. ive not heard of that.

[Grim]

yea when i did my pump i never saw a piece that looked like the ones in the pictures

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Grim yea when i did my pump i never saw a piece that looked like the ones in the pictures

thats cause its in the head and u diddent need to remove it to swap pumps or internals

[AutoXRacer]

So I take the Mrlilguy's pumps were also KMD...?

I have over 15K miles on mine and it still sounds like OEM and yields 2000 PSI.

Damn it, something else to worry about... Is my engine knocking, will I blow a hole through my block, will my turbo blow a seal...now add, will my fuel pump seize...? The car is getting exhausting... <sigh>

Anything else?

[bova]

so if this piece is not one that we are swapping how is it being affected? do the new internals put a different stress on them? or am i just mistaking parts for something else?

[MadOzodi]

Scary shit indeed. Now that it's in the MS3/6 community's attn, I hope that competition between vendors/manufacturers doesn't impede the additional investigation and solution progress.

[CraigHJr]

There is a lot of talk about non CP-E pumps getting very noisey. The only failures I know of are the original batch built by Jon. What was different about them that there was a 90% failure ratio (Laloosh had the last running pump of that batch, and it was god aweful noisey)

[ATE BALLER]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes thats cause its in the head and u diddent need to remove it to swap pumps or internals

Well, according to Craig...

Originally Posted by CraigHJr I am pretty sure when I looked in the Mazda head with my pump removed there is a 3 pointed rocker that is the very end of the cam shaft. The VW failing followers are in the head not inside the pumps right. When building the Mazda pump I didn't remove any bucket shaped followers like I remember the pics of the VW being.

it isn't in the head. If he saw the triochial lobe with the pump off and in his hand, it's not even a part of our set-up. I have not looked myself though.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by CraigHJr There is a lot of talk about non CP-E pumps getting very noisey. The only failures I know of are the original batch built by Jon. What was different about them that there was a 90% failure ratio (Laloosh had the last running pump of that batch, and it was god aweful noisey)

to be fair... this isnt quite accurate craig.

in dec 2007 there was looshs pump, built by jon(i think)... and it held up fine. it was an autotech internal. then...
there was the first test batch built by zach(at PG)..also autotech.... the first batch went to me, driver311, and udontknowjack in cali.

driver had 2 fail, udontknowjack had 1 fail, and i had issues on mine but it ultimately did not fail. my issues had to do with a simple mistake when zach put the actual pump together. these were all autotech internals, and built by pg. we dont know if the failures were all installation or with the actual part itself. driver311 certainly felt that the autotech pumps themselves were flawed, and this is when john at ptp got involved..... maybe around jan/feb of 2008. pg then switched to kmd. they were cheaper but supposedly identical. they did this when jon spearheaded the project in order to insure they DID get built properly. all pumps after the original 3 were kmd tuning pumps... im sure version 1. the only guys in the community who didnt get a ver 1 kmd pump, were me, loosh, and driver.

the second batch of pumps on the big group buy that john did, and that ken waited for were assumably the v2 kmd pumps... thats why they took so long. thats a guess tho.

anyway... thought id add that for accuracy.

[AutoXRacer]

So where does this piece (follower) fit in all of this (see PDF)...?

[CraigHJr]

+1 thanks for clarifying. I wasn't 100% about that but as I heard the stories at the meets that's the way I retold it. Ok who is autotech now? What happened that their pumps failed consistantly?

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER Well, according to Craig... it isn't in the head. If he saw the triochial lobe with the pump off and in his hand, it's not even a part of our set-up. I have not looked myself though.

outside of the head there is a separate chamber for the fuel pump lobe. the separate chamber has the cam follower in it. I have my valve cover off and that chamber removed, I'll snap some pics tonight.

[booya620]

I have ptp's on the way. Hopefully I'll have them next week. When I do I'll post pics of my pg internals, they've been in for 1500 miles.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by CraigHJr +1 thanks for clarifying. I wasn't 100% about that but as I heard the stories at the meets that's the way I retold it. Ok who is autotech now? What happened that their pumps failed consistantly?

as far as i know...my pump got sent into apr when i switched out for the cpe pump. i didnt sell the internals. loosh sold his pump to oskinosmee. and driver311 sold his pump..i dont know to who. those should be the only autotech pumps out there. its possible ken had a few after ours went out, but im pretty sure he was so flustered with the quality issues he felt that autotech was having that he deep6ed them... i think thats the case.

the issue with the autotech pumps, and even to some extent the kmd ones is just whther the tolerances are too great. remember these are made batches at a time and unless EACH AND EVERY pump is flowtested, there is gonna be some variation from pump to pump. it is my understanding that the other companys do random audits from batch to batch, but dont actually test but 1 in xx. this is a CLEAR advantage to the cpe pumps. Im SURE .... that APR probably gets failures and garbage pumps, but these would be weeded out before they leave apr becuase of the bench tester they own, and the fact that every single pump is tested. thats really what youre paying for when you buy that pump quite frankly... i doubt the actual "quality" is any better.

actaully the coatings are different too. thats a whole nother story..lol

bottom line is that if you put a kmd/autotech pump in your car, datalog, and then drive... youre essentially do your own "road bench test" i guess. if it works, it works.

[ChrisK]

blah, this is bad news for me, I just order PG internals last week.

Oh well, maybe it won't break.

[whoosh@Realtune]

the pupose of the KMD internals and the cp-e pump upgrade it to increase volume/pressure
*obvious

that pressure increase is going to take a toll on the next metal part not as strong as the hardened internal pump parts

the pump failures early on were due to clearance issues regarding the plunger shaft, not cam follower wear

two completely separate problems

[gsrtype1]

Originally Posted by ChrisK blah, this is bad news for me, I just order PG internals last week. Oh well, maybe it won't break.

I got mine and they don't make a ticking noise, though when the engine is cold sometimes they have a light rubbing noise but car runs perfect.Autox hasnt had any issues, maybe they ironed out the problemss as of lately..hopefully..

[LBV]

I've noticed something odd in my car 2 times in the past few weeks. I give it a bit of gas and the car sputters and doesn't really wanna accelerate. I thought it was my fuel pressure going low but when I watched it, it was the opposite - the fp was way higher than it should be at that load ... really odd. Anyone know what may be causing that?

Ive had the PG pump internals on now for 4 months.