Methanol Direct Injection

[Enki]

Originally Posted by BigjohnB20 I know this is pretty OT for this thread

Then you should probably make a new thread. This one here is about running methanol, not ethanol or meeting boost targets.

[BigjohnB20]

Originally Posted by Enki Then you should probably make a new thread. This one here is about running methanol, not ethanol or meeting boost targets.

so sorry....

[BigRedSpecial]

Too much awesomeness here to let this die...

on my 4th tank now at ~10% meth, and I gotta say, I'm hooked. No VD numbers yet (early this week hopefully), but the butt dyno is off the charts. My previous 91 map used to knock like a bitch - I'd see upwards of 9.0 KR on a 4th gear pull. Now I'm on a 93 map (still burning 91) and the highest I've seen is 1.8, and that's with temps being about 10 degrees warmer.

No I'm not exactly an expert when it comes to tuning, but that's huge. Can't wait to see what Bucker can do with it.

Another observation I've made is that I'm burning less gas. I used to get just over 400kms to a tank, now I'm pushing 500... and that's after switching from 215 all seasons to 235 NT05s. Part throttle knock on the highway is completely gone, so I'm guessing it's running comfortably at the max timing. I'll increase it to see if I can squeeze a little more out of it.

At $10/gal, I'm only really spending an extra $5/tank (a gallon of gas being close to $5 here), so it's looking like I'm actually spending less money here to make a bunch of extra power, with zero drivability issues.

[86azms3]

Originally Posted by Bosox No more that 1:10 ratio. F1 didn't even run 100%. The reason for considering this over methanol is that it is proven effective and safe for turbo charged engines and I believe it can be had for $3/gallon if bought in 55 gallon drums.

Kindof late. But I've pretty much used a lot of things to comban KR. I've used toluene...it works well from 1-3 gal. And definately allowed more increased timing and power. But at $10/gal I was paying for 5g pails it wasn't worth it once I found ethanol. Ethanol is cheaper...it's even more knock resistant with DI and it's oxygenated.

I've kind of stayed out of this thread. But to me I don't think there is much point to running methanol in our fuel tanks. It's a novel concept but really as seen in some really smart MIT guys research paper...E85 has a theoretical mon of like 160 and methanol 180. I myself don't feel like chasing those few extra % KR protection when even a few gallons of ethanol is allowing people to get near or past MBT without KR. And our fuel system is already is taxed as it is. For you baby turbo guys will be cool to see what you can do...maybe more people making high numbers if you could run say 25% methanol which I don't think would be too far of a stretch.

But then again not everyone is lucky enough to have E85

But I'm a negative nancy and trying to thwart the progress of really cool ideas on this forum...carry on.

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 But then again not everyone is lucky enough to have E85

That's exactly the point. No one is going to put meth in their tank instead of E85, the gains would be nowhere near worth the hassle. A LOT of people don't have access to E85 though... like everyone in the top half of North America.

I can't even get 93 where I live, and the 91 is more like 89. this is a godsend for me.

[802MS3]

^yea dude, like I've said before....no e85 to be found in all of VT, ME, and NH.

and I can't imagine e85 being cheap forever.

[smoogs12]

There is also the question of not only the current availability of e85, but how about future availability?

I have seen so many conflicting opinions on the subject of "will e85 survive". With the tax subsidy gone, the price gap between e85 and gasoline has narrowed, so that is definitely not good. But at the same time, car manufacturers are still making FFVs.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?


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[chimmike]

less gov't subsidies for corn-for-ethanol productions means less farmers will be willing to produce corn for ethanol unless it pays significantly more, if it does pay more, more farmers will switch to it from corn-for-food production and alter those prices. Ultimately I think ethanol will remain a niche at best. I already know FL is looking at eliminating ethanol in gas due to less economy, I'm sure other states are as well.

[802MS3]

Ethanol literally can't survive in its current form forever. It really doesnt make a lot of sense as a consumer fuel. Besides the corn industry being ridiculously subsidized by our tax dollars, it's farmed and transported by equipment running fossil fuel.

[aggierandy]

IIRC, the ethanol yield from sugar cane is much higher. That might be ethanol's best chance.

But to get back on track, any update phate?

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[cld12pk2go]

As long as there is the ethanol mandate, ethanol will stay around even if it is truly a very bad idea on the macroeconomic/sustainable/starving the poor fronts. At least they dropped the insane $0.51/gal blending credit, which was a pointless subsidy with the mandate.

Of course, they have saturated the market up to the current 10% blend wall in gasoline and have to either raise the blend wall (very bad idea) or push more E85 to continue to grow or to hold at current volumes since gasoline demand appears to be in terminal decline in NA.

Many of the ethanol makers are currently hurting financially.

I am doing my part using E85 to help out.

[smoogs12]

Bump for updates

phate

[802MS3]

still haz no eth

mmmmmmmmmmbump

[phate]

No changes from my last update. It looks like up to 20% is a pretty safe bet.

If anyone has an old itfp or assembly, I'd like to test what effect methanol has on the materials.

[Enki]

I still have one, but it isn't exactly damaged or old. <30k miles on it, and the only thing that was messy was the filter.

[SLOWHATCH]

FWIW I have been running roughly 1.25 gallons of Meth to a full tank at every fill up for the past two months with nothing but success (except when I dumped 75/25 in my tank but that's a different story lol) Roughly 20* timing around 6k rpms and zero kr.

[paulfitipauldi]

Originally Posted by SLOWHATCH FWIW I have been running roughly 1.25 gallons of Meth to a full tank at every fill up for the past two months with nothing but success (except when I dumped 75/25 in my tank but that's a different story lol) Roughly 20* timing around 6k rpms and zero kr.

Any updates in this topic??

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[Dmurray06]

Originally Posted by paulfitipauldi Any updates in this topic?? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

If you have no access to e85 and need the fueling, in tank meth is where it's at.

[dantes5823]

Originally Posted by Dmurray06 If you have no access to e85 and need the fueling, in tank meth is where it's at.

More like kr protection or octane bump.

[aggierandy]

Yes, it appears some people have been able to run relatively low blends of methanol in tank as an EFFECTIVE octane booster (cooling effect amplifier). Without ill effects (to date). Although I don't know if any one has looked at their fuel pumps after running methanol in tank for prolonged periods. (Degradation of polymers in the fuel system (i.e. o-rings) seems to be the primary concern.)

I'd be interested to see if anyone had any of the black gunk (black death) in their pumps like some had from running e85 (I believe that had to do with something in the motor oil. Zinc maybe?). If not, methanol may have that benefit over e85 as well.

Parenthesis happy tonight.

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[dantes5823]

I bought a drum of meth right before I blew. So im probably gonna run like a gallon for kicks.

[paulfitipauldi]

Originally Posted by dantes5823 I bought a drum of meth right before I blew. So im probably gonna run like a gallon for kicks.

Ohh sorry to hear that bro,,

Thanks guys for the input,, have a few gallons at home of M5,, lets see how it behaive,, and let you know guys!!



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[Tokay444]

I'm pretty sure the testing phate provided showed that <=10% had no affect on the orings.
At oleaster those of which that are in the injectors. And even above 10%, all that happened was swelling of the blue orings, which returned to normal size one removed from the concentration. It's all right here in this thread. I'm not convinced that the swelling of a static oring could have any detriment what so ever, so I wouldn't call it degradation.

[BigRedSpecial]

I ran a gallon per tank for several months with no ill effects whatsoever; I only stopped because it became a pain in the ass to have to do 100% fill ups all the time. I didn't really tune for it but I'm confident the gains would be significant if I had.

EDIT: When I say didn't tune for it I mean I didn't touch timing. I did calibrate the MAF, of course.

[Tokay444]

I ran 1/2 to 1 gallon for a few fills at the beginning of winter, trying to figure out some weird kr, that turned out to be a loose dp to tp bolt.
It ran me about 8%, but was never a concern.
Now that I'm not actually knocking, and the colder temps are here, I'm not running it anymore. Gas mileage was suffering from it.
I'll go back to a gallon a fill in the summer time.

[aggierandy]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 I'm not convinced that the swelling of a static oring could have any detriment what so ever, so I wouldn't call it degradation.

I am still concerned that cycles of swelling and shrinking could cause o-ring failure. I'd be more concerned though about what would happen to a failed o-ring. Could it clog part of the fuel system? Or could it eventually react with the methanol (which is an excellent solvent) especially at high temp and damage something.

I've got respect to the guys that have the balls to run it but I don't consider the tests run here to be exhaustive by any means and therefore would not feel comfortable running it yet myself.

Read the thread in its entirety and draw your own conclusions.

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[Tokay444]

Are you really gonna run more than 2 gallons per tanks?

[Lex]

Some testing on metal (aluminum and steel) corrosion should be performed. I will do this if I ever get a minute.

[aggierandy]

Absolutely, especially aluminum :

"One of the potential drawbacks of using high concentrations of methanol (and other alcohols, such as ethanol) in fuel is the corrosivity to some metals of methanol, particularly to aluminium. Methanol, although a weak acid, attacks the oxide coating that normally protects the aluminum from corrosion:

6 CH3OH + Al2O3 → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2O
The resulting methoxide salts are soluble in methanol, resulting in a clean aluminium surface, which is readily oxidized by dissolved oxygen. Also, the methanol can act as an oxidizer:

6 CH3OH + 2 Al → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2
This reciprocal process effectively fuels corrosion until either the metal is eaten away or the concentration of CH3OH is negligible. Concerns with methanol's corrosivity have been addressed by using methanol-compatible materials, and fuel additives that serve as corrosion inhibitors." (Wikipedia)

Additionally, methanol will absorb water from the air even more so than hydrocarbon fuels and this water can promote rusting of steel parts.

From what I understand, methanol race cars typically drain all of the fuel out of the cars when they are not in use.

Example corrosion inhibitor just for reference.

http://www.cbsterling.com/_mndata/cb...files/C809.pdf

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by Lex Some testing on metal (aluminum and steel) corrosion should be performed. I will do this if I ever get a minute.

Hmmm... almost sounds like what I was asking for, way back when...

[SLOWHATCH]

Originally Posted by paulfitipauldi Any updates in this topic?? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

I'm still running at least 1 gallon to every tank full of 93. No negative effects that I have noticed. However the car has been sitting since Oct. 25 awaiting repairs from an accident. I should have it back in the next couple of days and will update when I have the time to check things out further.

However with 1 gallon of methanol in tank I was able to achieve same if not better performance results vs adding 2.5 - 3 gallons of e85.

[aggierandy]

Lex; If you wanna talk through designing an experiment to test the impact on metals, I could look into performing it. I have access to precise scales, calipers, and ovens if you we wanted to look at the reactions under certain conditions. Hell, I might even have some lab grade methanol back there.

I imagine it could involve weighing and measuring a sample of the raw metal then running a series of methanol cycles over it (perhaps varying concentrations in gasoline and at an elevated temperature), then looking at weight loss and dimensional change.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by aggierandy Lex; If you wanna talk through designing an experiment to test the impact on metals, I could look into performing it. I have access to precise scales, calipers, and ovens if you we wanted to look at the reactions under certain conditions. Hell, I might even have some lab grade methanol back there. I imagine it could involve weighing and measuring a sample of the raw metal then running a series of methanol cycles over it (perhaps varying concentrations in gasoline and at an elevated temperature), then looking at weight loss and dimensional change.

You got it. If you can put this together that would be great. We should look at raw aluminum as well as oil coated steel.

We should have a control group with normal E10 gas and a group with 10% methanol and 20% methanol by volume added to E10.

Corrosion will happen on the surface so it will be really easy to spot. PM me for more details.

[86azms3]

Originally Posted by Lex Some testing on metal (aluminum and steel) corrosion should be performed. I will do this if I ever get a minute.

Why? Common sense should be employed. carbon steel and stainless is perfectly fine and used in industry where methanol is made.

Aluminum...have the many people who use methanol injection had their aluminum manifolds corrode and fall to dust?



Listen. Methanol is slightly...slightly acidic. It has a pKa value around 15.5. The dissociation constant then for this is 10^-15.5 which equals 3.162x10-16

In layman's terms that means for every 31,620,000,000,000,000, one molecule of methanol will deprotonate it's proton to form an acidic hydronium ion in water solution. WATER IS MORE ACIDIC THEN METHANOL!

There's too much worry about methanol and metal contact. Given years or time @ 100% concentration and 100% contact time in an aluminum vessel at normal temperatures I bet a aluminum tank will do just fine for many years. At elevated temperatures then it becomes more worry some.

It's methanol's small molecule size that should be a worry, because it's a lot smaller then longer chain organic fuels it's able to permeate into rubber and some platics as well. But I don't see too much of an issue with this as long as it's not exposed to air when it's swollen. Many seals are affected and degraded by ozone...when a seal is swollen there's more room for ozone to attack the bonds.

[aggierandy]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 Why? Common sense should be employed. carbon steel and stainless is perfectly fine and used in industry where methanol is made. Aluminum...have the many people who use methanol injection had their aluminum manifolds corrode and fall to dust? Listen. Methanol is slightly...slightly acidic. It has a pKa value around 15.5. The dissociation constant then for this is 10^-15.5 which equals 3.162x10-16 In layman's terms that means for every 31,620,000,000,000,000, one molecule of methanol will deprotonate it's proton to form an acidic hydronium ion in water solution. WATER IS MORE ACIDIC THEN METHANOL! There's too much worry about methanol and metal contact. Given years or time @ 100% concentration and 100% contact time in an aluminum vessel at normal temperatures I bet a aluminum tank will do just fine for many years. At elevated temperatures then it becomes more worry some. It's methanol's small molecule size that should be a worry, because it's a lot smaller then longer chain organic fuels it's able to permeate into rubber and some plastics as well. But I don't see too much of an issue with this as long as it's not exposed to air when it's swollen. Many seals are affected and degraded by ozone...when a seal is swollen there's more room for ozone to attack the bonds.

I can't tell you how much I disagree with you regarding the aluminum. Essentially what is happening is the oxide layer which protects the highly reactive aluminum is eaten away. It is oxidized by the methanol and then the methoxide salts are highly soluable in the methanol.

The Amazing Rusting Aluminum | Popular Science

Read this article. Mercury, rather than methanol in this instance, is preventing the formation of the oxide layer.

[86azms3]

Originally Posted by aggierandy I can't tell you how much I disagree with you regarding the aluminum. Essentially what is happening is the oxide layer which protects the highly reactive aluminum is eaten away. It is oxidized by the methanol and then the methoxide salts are highly soluable in the methanol. The Amazing Rusting Aluminum | Popular Science Read this article. Mercury, rather than methanol in this instance, is preventing the formation of the oxide layer.

Oh so now we're comparing mercury-aluminum amalgam???

Mercury acts as a catalyst for aluminum oxidation. It forms an amalgam of the two metals and effectively gives air vast amounts of molecular surface area for aluminum to oxidize and fall out of the mercury-aluminum amalgam solution and then promoting the mercury uptaking more aluminum and the cycle continues.

[phate]

[aggierandy]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 Oh so now we're comparing mercury-aluminum amalgam??? Mercury acts as a catalyst for aluminum oxidation. It forms an amalgam of the two metals and effectively gives air vast amounts of molecular surface area for aluminum to oxidize and fall out of the mercury-aluminum amalgam solution and then promoting the mercury uptaking more aluminum and the cycle continues.

Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. The mechanism is similar, it attacks the oxide layer on the aluminum and then interferes with its reformation. The rate of that reaction is exceptionally fast. Not because of the mercury, but because of the reactivity of aluminum.

Perhaps if you have a degree in Metallurgical Engineering you can enlighten us all. But because I do not, I will conduct an experiment to determine the extent of the effects.

Documentation from the Methanol Institute specifically speaks to the corrosivity of methanol and methanol/water mixtures to aluminum, galvanized steel, copper and platinum.

Perhaps you're as brilliant as you think you are but you're coming of as a bit of dick.

[86azms3]

Originally Posted by aggierandy Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. The mechanism is similar, it attacks the oxide layer on the aluminum and then interferes with its reformation. The rate of that reaction is exceptionally fast. Not because of the mercury, but because of the reactivity of aluminum. Perhaps if you have a degree in Metallurgical Engineering you can enlighten us all. But because I do not, I will conduct an experiment to determine the extent of the effects. Documentation from the Methanol Institute specifically speaks to the corrosivity of methanol and methanol/water mixtures to aluminum, galvanized steel, copper and platinum. Perhaps you're as brilliant as you think you are but you're coming of as a bit of dick.

Almost have a degree there...but chemical engineering is close enough.

Ok since the aluminum is so reactive just keep slightly buffing (oxide layer will only be nanometers thick) the oxide layer of a piece of 1/4" aluminum. Tell me how long it takes to get to the center of the tootsie pop?

Like I said the mercury acts as a catalyst creating a reaction speed that is many millions of times faster then normal. In science terms you are comparing apples to oranges.

[86azms3]

I'm not disputing the fact that methanol will attack aluminum. It will. Point I'm trying to make is the reaction rate is so slow over the lifetime of the vehicle it won't matter. Especially the type of concentrations we are speaking of. Your source that you state does not specifically "not recommend" aluminum for use in industry that use high concentrations of methanol at prolonged periods of time under higher or lower pressures and temperatures we see. In fact they said it can be used and that costs and service life must be taken into consideration. If aluminum was so corrosive to methanol, it would be prohibited. The reaction is very slow, But due to the fact there is a reaction inspection should take place especially with pressure vessels. But this is pretty much common sense, you always inspect and expect a certain amount of deterioration in a chemical facility. You gotta remember, most industrial operations run for quite a long time, 50+ years sometimes at 80% OEE.

Section B.3

http://www.methanol.org/Health-And-S...l-English.aspx

"That is not to say that aluminum alloys are unfit for methanol
service, but rather to alert users to the necessity of periodic inspection and
nondestructive testing. Positive materials identification, inspection, and nondestructive
testing are essential for fitness for continued service. This applies to all pressure
boundary materials in all chemical services, including methanol. Rate of attack on
aluminum alloys is typically a slow pitting form of corrosion; however, it can be
accelerated to the point of compromising integrity of structural components if not
anticipated and monitored"