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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection Have a CDFP fuel pump question? Do you want to add Nitrous or Water Injection to your Mazdaspeed 3/6 ? Please come on in!


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 Old 12-10-2011, 10:31 AM   #1
 
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Default Port Injection for 2012

Alright so Jracer started a thread requesting some info on what I was planning on when I hinted at running a PI kit. I'll bring over my relevant posts from that thread, so hopefully we can get some more discussion/ interest on PI in its own, dedicated thread.

OK so here's the deal...
We've all been looking at one "wall" or another will this platform since day one... and the wall we're at now is fueling. Until recently the answer to the fueling wall has been using meth as a secondary fuel source(not what it's intended for). Aside from this option, we've always thrown around the thoughts of port injection, bigger injectors, and higher fuel pressure as our options for the future but nothing has come out.
while looking at those three options for additional fueling, it became an easy decision for me that in the long run, port injection is the way to go. Btw this decision was made AFTER talking with DW and finding out that bigger DI injectors will probably be out in less than a year. We can discuss the cons of that later...
So after a lot of thought and deciding to go PI, we had to decide how to do it obviously
Questions that came up:
1. Stock tank or separate? And if separate, what kind/size?
2. If stock tank, what Fuel pump(s)?
3. Return(less)?
4.sizes for the lines?
5.how to mount and run everything?
6.what fuel rail?
7.what injector(s)?
8.How the fuck do we control it?
9. How universal can it be?
10. Cost and the other 1000000295 questions...

So after taking everything into account, here's what we came up with, and what will be running on my car...

Tank-decided on running a fuel cell. Wanted something ~5gal and ended up finding the perfect one at 4gal. The tank mounts perfectly to the "40" split if the back seats on the 3's which allows close to full use of the hatch and you can still get to your spare.

Pump/filter/regulator- from the tank, you'll go though and inline 255 and inline filter in a return style system with a 40-80psi regulator at the rail.

Rail/injectors /manifold - The rail is custom. Money wise it was a no-brainer to go that route, plus the injectors line up perfect on the manifold instead if trying to use other rails that almost line up. Injectors are one part I'm still deciding on, the nice thing about the PI is that this is where our options are limitless and not a lot will need to be modified between injectors other than the harness and obviously tuning. Basically my decision right now is coming down to price and height of the injectors, but will be around 285cc and 330'sthe but u can go as big as u want. And if u haven't caught on this will be direct port in the IM. We can do the work on your stock mani or just send the kit, to be used with an aftermarket one.
Lines /fittings /misc- choice of hose or braided SS lines, AN fittings either way and -6 all around.

Lastly... tuning! It has come down to 2 options. The first is a fuel only controller which, coupled with an rpm signal converter will just use rpm to batch fire the injectors based on voltage or boost. The second is about $50-80 more and brings more complexity, but offers some timing control and has a much nicer software suite to deal with. Both will be voltage or boost based and, if using the voltage, option, will be fairly easy to tune in conjunction with ATR.

So I don't want pic s up till I'm satisfied with a couple more things and have it tuned but that shod give u all a good idea of what I want to put out. I have tonnnns more details to share but This was all on my phone since I couldn't drive home to my PC today and no internet here. Really wanted to get what I could out to u guys though.

So everyone, questions, comments, concerns??? Please discuss here and we'll get this thing perfect and out to the community.

Thanks for theee patience!

Originally Posted by 802MS3 View Post
don't sell it to cp-e
Fuck no I/we at our shop will be personally handling this one. I'm too close to it to let anything go elsewhere.

Edit:Everything was done with E85 in mind cuz I love it.

Oh and I'll need a Six and a pu to mock a couple things up on
And then some of the questions which have been asked/answered already


Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W View Post

Better late than never lol jk sounds like an awesome kit. I do have some questions though:
I am assuming this will be in addition to the stock fueling system. Am I right in this assumption? Basically add a set amount of fuel this way then fine tune with stock system?

Also, do you have a price range set for this?

Will the tank be in a firewalled container (ie allowed on track)

Are all lines run outside the car?

Thanks again!!!
1. Yes this will be in addition to the stock fueling. I'd like to basically keep the stock system (IDC%) between 65-75%%, while using the auxiliary injectors for the rest. There are a few reasons for this approach, but the two main reasons are A. The pulse width of the DI system will be nice and short/efficient and B. It will allow the stock ECU room to modulate fuel + or - to reach your desired AFR.

2. Price - TBD. Bottom line is, I'm not a company and not in this to make a fortune. I've been in the same shoes everyone else here, and I want to help further the platform. Price will be reasonable and will basically have a few different options.

Opt 1- Fuel system w/1 injector (Assumes you will install injector near TB)
Opt 2- Fuel system w/4 injectors (Assumes you will install injectors in aftermarket IM)
Opt 3- Complete System w/4 Injectors and PnP Stock mani w/weld in inj bungs.

Also, each of these will have the option of normal -6AN hose or SS lines. Tuning will also be optional. We have an amazing group of tuners here and any of them will be able to handle this, obviously their cost. I will also personally offer tunes with the system, which will obviously be an added cost. I charge a competitive price for e-tunes and would certainly charge less if added in with the fuel system.
As far as final price, I have a fairly good idea, but want to gauge the interest level a bit, so I can see if getting certain parts in bulk will be an option. If that's the case, then the price will obviously drop. Just not ready yet to come out with anything definitive.

3. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by firewalled, but tank does meet the standards for most racing and includes safety foam and venting. Also, if you want a different tank, that's always an option. This tank just met all requirements perfectly for fit/finish/function.

4. Lines are run outside the car, basically with the stock lines, for the most part.


So basically it will be similar to running direct port meth injection? Except with pump gas or e85 instead of meth... Won't you have to figure out a way to control the timing/fire order of the injectors though? Or will it just be dumping fuel when the conditions are met?
Very similar to running PI meth... to a point lol.
In fact, when I originally started this, we contacted DO and Aquamist to see if we could just use a modified version of one of their kits...and...no go lol. Basically, even though the Surflo pumps will "handle" gas mixes, nobody will warranty it because of safety reasons AND the pumps cannot handle as much use as we would want/need.
UNLIKE a PI meth system currently available, this will NOT just be dumping fuel. We actually did speak with a company about using a constant flow system, like current meth systems, but designed for gasoline and decided against it. Although the ease of tuning would be great, I just don't think it's the RIGHT option.

Only thing i don't like about batch fire is your spraying on the back of closed valves, then it opens, dumps a splash of fuel on the hole, or is it happening to fast to be a problem?
Among other things... too fast to be a problem. You will never get enough of a "puddle" to have this be an issue.
Much of the issues people run into with larger injectors or secondary injector only happen at idle and low load, which will never be where our secondary fueling is needed.
To be proactive here, the other issues I speak of that we won't have to worry about are: Injector angle in the manifold, size of injectors, spray pattern, etc.

You do however bring up a GREAT benefit to running Direct PI... CLEAN VALVES!

That was my concern. If that was the case, one injector pre, or directly after the throttle body would probably be more than enough to get the job done.
One, big injector will certainly do the trick-ish. I've thought about it a lot and this will most likely be an option. HOWEVER it is NOT my recommendation. When you go this route, you'll run into all the issues we have with current meth setups, the biggest being uneven fuel distribution.
This will obviously be more prevalent in cars running the stock IM, but will still happen even with aftermarket mani's.
IF we had the ability to see afr and knock events PER CYLINDER, like some other platforms, I would feel more comfortable with this, but currently we do not.

OK keep the questions coming! I'm happy to answer anything I can.
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 Old 12-10-2011, 11:59 AM   #2
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thread cleant. keep it clean or post delete/thread ban
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 Old 12-10-2011, 12:05 PM   #3
 
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Originally Posted by Derigo View Post
thread cleant. keep it clean or post delete/thread ban
cleaned* lol sorry had to
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 Old 12-10-2011, 03:25 PM   #4
 
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@SilverDemon is heading up a project with JM Fabrications to make a custom IM for us and with the potential option of port injection of what ever you may want. And I know @SPEED6 KILLAH did a custom port injection on the stock manifold in his build. I know I'm going to get the JM Fabrication IM with the PI bungs, but I am def interested in your PI kit and think it would be awesome to coupled with the custom IM and make those that want to run PI for our high boost applications a hell of alot easier. As I plan on starting my compound HTA3076R over HTA3794R setup next year an will be running 40-50psi and will definetly need secondary fueling after ~30+psi. Kits designed for different applications woud be awesome. Good Luck
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 Old 12-10-2011, 04:55 PM   #5
 
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Good work man!!

I eventually want to try this out on my manifold, I am using CP-E's pro fuel controller for the meth system, but it can be used to batch fire as many injectors as I can fit on the mani.
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 Old 12-10-2011, 05:27 PM   #6
 
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im working on one for my car as well . good luck bro, hope ot turns out great.
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 Old 12-10-2011, 05:32 PM   #7
 
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Originally Posted by SilverDemon View Post
Good work man!!

I eventually want to try this out on my manifold, I am using CP-E's pro fuel controller for the meth system, but it can be used to batch fire as many injectors as I can fit on the mani.
Yeah, I eventually wanna try it on your manifold too! lol.

And like I said in one of the responses above, the SB w/ Profuel would be perfect for this. Just not cost effective for a kit that most people will be running in conjunction with the AP. Other than that it's great.
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 Old 12-10-2011, 05:53 PM   #8
 
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Originally Posted by Realgib3 View Post
Yeah, I eventually wanna try it on your manifold too! lol.

And like I said in one of the responses above, the SB w/ Profuel would be perfect for this. Just not cost effective for a kit that most people will be running in conjunction with the AP. Other than that it's great.
i did have a question about that when it comes to tuning...so the plan is to run the DI off the stock ecu/Cobb AP and then the PI with some other management system. I'm assuming that a protuner would be able to tune for both systems as well or would one have to drop the AP and go with two separate managment systems so they could be tuned at the same place? Assuming that it's not gonna be a self tune.
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 Old 12-10-2011, 06:09 PM   #9
 
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Will it be possible to use megasquirt as the PI tuning management? Or perhaps a meth controller? If we are doing batch fire after a certain condition is met then tuning shouldn't be to dificult for that.
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 Old 12-10-2011, 06:34 PM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by BobtailedSnail View Post
i did have a question about that when it comes to tuning...so the plan is to run the DI off the stock ecu/Cobb AP and then the PI with some other management system. I'm assuming that a protuner would be able to tune for both systems as well or would one have to drop the AP and go with two separate managment systems so they could be tuned at the same place? Assuming that it's not gonna be a self tune.
This is all set up for tuning with AP for the DI and another controller for PI and YES any protuner, or any tuner on here (PERM) will easily be able to handle this.

It's very similar to tuning for meth, but you'll have table like in ATR instead of just knobs. Easiest to just think of it that way.

Originally Posted by JacksonMS30 View Post
Will it be possible to use megasquirt as the PI tuning management? Or perhaps a meth controller? If we are doing batch fire after a certain condition is met then tuning shouldn't be to dificult for that.
MS will work perfectly fine. It just wasn't my first option because I'm not really experienced in building one, plus I found some options slightly less expensive.
Meth controller is a no go though. Unless it's the ProFuel controller, which does allow for extra injectors, but you have to get a Standback to run it.

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 Old 12-10-2011, 06:41 PM   #11
 
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This is a going to be a very interested thread. I am currently working on two type of injection system. Try to see which one is more efficient and cheaper to do because it can come out to a lot.
Another thing is too that we haven't seen how port injection will react with direct injection on are cars
I am go to be working with @djuosnteisn to get it to perfections onces am done with base tuning.
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 Old 12-10-2011, 07:49 PM   #12
 
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Yeah I think toyota has done something similar except the DI takes over on high loads and PI on low loads, However I'm glad this will work for with a PERM tune. It's awesome how the owners are stepping up to improve this platform instead of waiting for the major companies to address the real issues. To each his own as the saying goes and it just gives every Mazdaspeed 3/6 unique style because the owners are creating solutions for the problems, just awesome. Big ups to the true innovators of this platform.
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 Old 12-11-2011, 04:51 AM   #13
 
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You mentioned cons of bigger DI injectors. Can you elaborate?
If bigger injectors will be available soon, why go this route? You did mention e85 so maybe that's it.
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 Old 12-11-2011, 10:09 PM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by spnkr21 View Post
You mentioned cons of bigger DI injectors. Can you elaborate?
If bigger injectors will be available soon, why go this route?
How much you think that bigger injectors will cost when there are available? Why spend the extra money just for 20% of more flow. Look at Diesel injectors which cost about $560.00 per injector and that with the core.
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 Old 12-12-2011, 03:30 AM   #15
 
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I think you're right.
This will probably be the cheapest option by a lot.
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 Old 12-12-2011, 03:35 AM   #16
 
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Is there a possibility of running this system using the stock tank and pump? Like t off before it gets to the cdfp? It would be more stress on the pump to keep its pressure but we had a drop in upgrade now right? It would save some time and the headache of setting up a new system. @SPEED6 KILLAH isnt that similar to what you're doing?
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 Old 12-12-2011, 04:10 AM   #17
 
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I just had a thought on port injector control. I'm not an electrical engineer so this may be retarded, but what if we tapped into the signal wire for the stock injectors. Ran that wire to a control box that intercepts the signal. When the conditions are met (could be based off rpm) for the PI to start, the control box would connect the loop to the port injectors allowing them to fire at the same time as the corresponding direct injector.

I'm not to clear on how the injectors work but I think there are only two wires. Anyways, here is a very rough sketch to show kinda what I'm talking about. Please don't make to much fun of me, I am very sensative and my feelings may be hurt beyond repair.
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 Old 12-12-2011, 10:20 AM   #18
 
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Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W View Post
Is there a possibility of running this system using the stock tank and pump? Like t off before it gets to the cdfp? It would be more stress on the pump to keep its pressure but we had a drop in upgrade now right? It would save some time and the headache of setting up a new system. @SPEED6 KILLAH isnt that similar to what you're doing?
Yes its a similar system to what I have. I was think the first inital start up to fill the fuel rail will cause stress on the stock pump but right after that it should be fine. so what I am going to do is try running the stock fuel pump just to see what would happen.

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 Old 12-12-2011, 10:32 AM   #19
 
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This is another system that I would like to try that is also return less.

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 Old 12-12-2011, 12:00 PM   #20
 
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Good old 2jz. The problem with that is that you will not necessarily get even fuel to each cylinder
That is also most likely spraying tons of meth because there is no intercooler
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 Old 12-12-2011, 01:15 PM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by JacksonMS30 View Post
I just had a thought on port injector control. I'm not an electrical engineer so this may be retarded, but what if we tapped into the signal wire for the stock injectors. Ran that wire to a control box that intercepts the signal. When the conditions are met (could be based off rpm) for the PI to start, the control box would connect the loop to the port injectors allowing them to fire at the same time as the corresponding direct injector.

I'm not to clear on how the injectors work but I think there are only two wires. Anyways, here is a very rough sketch to show kinda what I'm talking about. Please don't make to much fun of me, I am very sensative and my feelings may be hurt beyond repair.
The only problem I see with that is that the PI would spray at the same time the as the DI (if i read correctly). Since DI is in the chamber, it doesn't have to worry about spraying when the valves are open, we would just have to worry about the PI injectors not spraying puddles on closed valves. That's the only thing I see.

I read an article a few days ago about the difference I'm do some searching and I'll post the link. It said something about overlap, and crank rotation degree of PI vs DI, IIRC that would inhibit DI and PI injecting simultameously. Just my arm chair engineering two cents lol.

Here is the link: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...e/viewall.html
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 Old 12-12-2011, 02:47 PM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH View Post
How much you think that bigger injectors will cost when there are available? Why spend the extra money just for 20% of more flow. Look at Diesel injectors which cost about $560.00 per injector and that with the core.
You hit the nail on the head.
1. Cost
2. You're still "limited " ~20% more flow
3. E85 compatible
4. Ease of tuning. With bigger DI injector s a. LOT of testing and tuning time and have to go into getting the car running correctly in ALL situations i.e. CL/OL, idle/ light/heavy load.

Great thing about the secondary system is untill u hit the given params to start secondary injection, it's like the system isn't even there
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 Old 12-12-2011, 05:49 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Realgib3 View Post
You hit the nail on the head.
1. Cost
2. You're still "limited " ~20% more flow
3. E85 compatible
4. Ease of tuning. With bigger DI injector s a. LOT of testing and tuning time and have to go into getting the car running correctly in ALL situations i.e. CL/OL, idle/ light/heavy load.

Great thing about the secondary system is untill u hit the given params to start secondary injection, it's like the system isn't even there
Who said a new injector was 500? A brand new stock injector is less then 200 so I can't imagine it would be that much more.

If they r designing an iinjector for us I would hope they would consult us first and know the platform enough to make it e85 compatible.


As far as tuning. Its now only a matter of changing one table in atr. So a 1200 drop in di injector solution would far out weigh even a 600 pi option with all those extra parts.

And who decided we would be limited to only 20%?
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 Old 12-12-2011, 06:39 PM   #24
 
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The only thing that worries me about some very large drop in DISI injectors is what it will do to our idle.

We already run very low InjDC at idle, I wonder if injectors with twice the flow will even be able to fully open for the extremely small the time it would take to properly fuel our motor at 900~1000rpm? I'm not sure if I'm willing to idle at 1500 or 2000 rpm just to stay running with DISI only...
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 Old 12-19-2011, 12:13 AM   #25
 
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Originally Posted by SSinstaller View Post
The only thing that worries me about some very large drop in DISI injectors is what it will do to our idle.

We already run very low InjDC at idle, I wonder if injectors with twice the flow will even be able to fully open for the extremely small the time it would take to properly fuel our motor at 900~1000rpm? I'm not sure if I'm willing to idle at 1500 or 2000 rpm just to stay running with DISI only...
i assume, and this is only my theory, whatever percentage flow the injectors are increased by we can increase the fuel pressure via ap by the same percentage and that would alleviate that issue.

also, do the injectors in a duratec 2.3 mount on the manifold or the head? ive been googling but i cant find a good pic. and if they do, would the manifold fit the mzr head? at any rate, id imagine an OEM FI fuel rail would fit a custom manifold. less parts to make
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 Old 12-19-2011, 06:25 AM   #26
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+1 ^^^^^^^^^

a bump in idle fuel pressure should be plenty to fuel us at idle. DI is a magical thing and i want to take advantage of everything it has to offer.
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 Old 12-19-2011, 08:10 AM   #27

 
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Bumping the fuel pressure at idle is the worst thing you could do if you are having issues with the pulsewidth being too low. That will cause the IDC to go even lower. You would want to reduce the pressure at idle to make the pulsewidth to go up which will also make your injectors more likley to dribble. If the injectors can open and close fast enought and atomization is your issue, then bumping the fuel pressure would be the answer.

I am planning on using a megasquirt, and batch injection based only on the MAF voltage. At X.XXv the secondary system will activate. It will take some time, but I will gradually up the duty cycle on the secondary system while I adjust the MAFCAL in ATR to compensate and keep the AFR fixed, with the goal of reducing the DI IDC to 80% or less. Ideally I would start to blend with both systems IDC still climbing at ~290g/s then at ~325g/s you would see the DI IDC and MAFCAL level off while the supplemental system continues to climb to handle the rest of the needs.


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 Old 12-19-2011, 02:33 PM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W View Post
Good old 2jz. The problem with that is that you will not necessarily get even fuel to each cylinder
That is also most likely spraying tons of meth because there is no intercooler
im going to have to disagree. the fuel will follow the highest flow therefore the cylinders that need it the most will get the most fuel.
same theory as tbi or carbed set ups. even flow is not always best.
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 Old 12-19-2011, 02:52 PM   #29
 
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duratec injectors mount onto the head. whatever you do, I wouldn't utilize the mz3 fuel rail. I'm not sure how much pressure you need to get through the rail, but there have been FI 3's that have got the rail to balloon up from pushing too much pressure through it. Link below is a better option.

Ford Duratec Fuel Rail

@J-Liss has an mz3 that he can swap parts with for testing purposes.
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 Old 12-19-2011, 03:11 PM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by madspd6 View Post
im going to have to disagree. the fuel will follow the highest flow therefore the cylinders that need it the most will get the most fuel.
same theory as tbi or carbed set ups. even flow is not always best.
that...makes sense..hmm lol
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