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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection Have a CDFP fuel pump question? Do you want to add Nitrous or Water Injection to your Mazdaspeed 3/6 ? Please come on in!


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 Old 11-14-2017, 12:44 PM   #1
 
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Default Power limit on RON98 (93 in US)?

How much power we can make using just pump fuel?
Im talking forged engine, additional PI injectors, upgraded fuel pump etc - whats the knock/boost/power limit?
Methanol/Ethanol is not really available for me and Im thinking if going PI just for pump fuel will be worth it? Im currently running 450HP crank on RON98 and injectors wont do much more (I need safe margin in a daily car).
Thanks for the advice!
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 Old 01-03-2018, 09:58 AM   #2
 
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What other mods are on this car? Question can't be answered without knowing. You've said nothing about the turbo, intake or exhaust.
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 Old 01-03-2018, 10:11 AM   #3
 
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Any required mods are almost not an issue (Ill do what I have to as long as I wont go bancrupt). Im asking about knock/temperatures/boost limits doable with all required supporting mods (within reason of course). Obviously knock vs temperatures vs boost is the main problem (I think). Im running colder spark plugs, 4" intake, big fmic but BATs are still not great (especially in summer when car is not moving) so Im considering water to air IC, other than that I dont have much more ideas how to handle temperatures and that probably will be the limit when it comes to more boost and more ignition timing. Alcohol would decrease temperatures but I dont want to go that route, pure pump fuel.
Thanks!
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 Old 01-03-2018, 11:16 AM   #4
 
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If you don't list your current setup we cannot help you.

Add meth and BAT's will drop.
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 Old 01-04-2018, 08:23 AM   #5
 
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Im running hpfp, forged engine (8.5:1 compression), huge fmic, 4" intake (short one=hot air), removed egr, de-flapped stock intake manifold, JBR OCC. And tons of drivetrain stuff which is not important here. Currently Im maxed out on injectors duty cycle at 1.5 bar of boost and 450HP crank. Turbo has tons of headroom (EFR 7670) but I dont know how much headroom I have in pump fuel before it starts knocking.
Has anybody checked it on MPS engines? How far we can go WITHOUT alcohol?

Thanks,
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 Old 01-04-2018, 09:25 AM   #6
 
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If you can extract more from this setup it will definitely not be much more. I think around this forum we've seen like 420bhp on pump gas only but on 9.5:1 pistons, in your case the 8.5:1 definitely allow for more but not sure how much more.

In your case a WMI kit will do wonders. I know you said "no alcohol" but a WMI can run on almost any kind of alcohol. I'm using shop cleaning alcohol which is a mix of 70% methanol, 15% ethanol, 12-13% isopropyl alcohol and 1-2% water and some colouring die. I mix this with 40% volume of water and the result is close to 50/50 water/alcohol.

Isopropyl alcohol is pretty expensive here in Europe and I think it's going to be the case for you too judging by the location. 2EUR for half a litre is not practical, but the alcohol mix I'm buying from some hardware store or automotive stores is like 1.5EUR for 900ml.
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 Old 01-04-2018, 09:36 AM   #7
 
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Thank you! Thats what Im afraid of: that 8.5:1 compression wont give me more than ~30HP so it wont be worth the work.
I dont want alcohol (whatever kind) mostly because of:
1) safety (storing another ~30l of flammable fuel in some aftermarket tank/lines/connectors, what about fumes/pressure/temperatures buildups etc)
2) reliability (separate fueling system, standalone ECU doesnt have multiple maps so relying only on knock retard sensor for failsafe)
3) ease of use (buy it, mix it, store it etc)

Im 99% daily driving the car and Im transporting my family in it so I would prefer not to mess around with alcohol...
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 Old 01-04-2018, 01:54 PM   #8
 
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Originally Posted by drozdo View Post
Im 99% daily driving the car and Im transporting my family in it so I would prefer not to mess around with alcohol...
Well, for daily driving I tell you what you have now is perfect.

However, my car is also 100% street driven (I light track it twice a year or so), and the 1 gallon (3.8 litres) tank under the driver fender is not an issue.

A WMI kit is the cheapest way to add octane to the fuel.
Even spraying 100% water may help at least with the heat. Even though using a 30% alcohol mix (which is below the flammable threshold) allows for significantly more timing.

Alcohol vapours are not an issue. The alcohol tank needs to breathe so it's not hermetic, but alcohol vapours are not a problem because they aren't practically there. If any they are blown right away by the moving air.

As for the additional lines carrying potentially flammable fluid - I agree. Yet with careful and thorough maintenance, like every oil change which I guess also in your case occurs every 5000 - maximum 7000kms you can visually inspect the lines and that's all you need.
Personally I think the chances your current PI system to malfunction at some point are equal to the WMI - if all is installed properly. Also, if one fails - doesn't matter which, you'll have the other as a backup in a 600+Nm/450+Hp pull when suddenly at 5000rpm and a lot of boost the AFRs suddenly climb towards 13 instead of 12 or less.

I'm sorry to divert from your initial question on how much one can get on solely pump gas to WMI, but with pump gas (and plenty in your case) the cheapest AND safest way to increase the fuel octane is to add a bit of alcohol.
Also, spraying distilled water alone is a benefit in case you run out of alcohol in a long trip across Europe.

You also mentioned you're on stock manifolds. If the exhaust manifold is stock then at this point that is your limiting factor. Adding more fuel and air will result in more exhaust gasses which will encounter the resistance of the exhaust manifold. Keeping the air and fuel at the same amount and being able to add more timing will also result in more power.

This is what I use as alcohol, you can find it pretty much at any hardware store or car parts store. Not in gas stations though, but on long trips I fill the 1 gallon tank and also keep 4 more litres (two 2l bottles) in the trunk).
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 Old 01-04-2018, 02:28 PM   #9
 
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Awesome, thank you for sharing all this experience, its helpful.
How much of alcohol mix are you using per 100km?
I talked with my tuners and they suggested big (30l) tank in the trunk and an switch to turn the separate ecu for PI injectors so they wouldnt work during normal driving at all. Will the stock ECU handle such variations, like 450HP map on RON98 and added 100-200HP with alcohol being injected? Are such gains even possible? What about AFR targeting and different stoichiometric values for RON98 and alcohol mix?
Maybe aftermarket ecu is the way to go? But I dint know if any reasonable ones are supporting DI and PI at the same time

PS. intake manifold is stock (FoST one from damond will be used for PI), exhaust manifold is custom and nice flowing, its T4 with twin scroll, 3" downpipe and exhaust ending with 2x2.75"

thanks!
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 Old 01-04-2018, 05:01 PM   #10
 
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Nah... that 30 litres tank in the trunk is for heavy diesels (think trucks and big pickups). Having such a big tank in a car like a 3 or 6 is not practical, unless maybe you want to use one of those LPG tanks and replace the spare wheel, which I would not as you never know.

Also, even if some people did it, running all those lines from the trunk back to the front does not look safe. Moreover, considering that the tank needs to breathe, it will breathe out those alcohol vapours in the cabin and this is a no-go for a street driven car, with passengers family and kids in long journeys.

So when driving normally (as you already know this in an MPS in eastern europe meaning nobody will overtake me and I will overtake everyone) I burn 1-1.5 litres of mix at 400-450kms.

If I drive hard (track) a full tank will last about 50-60 kms, but that means that when I'm not braking I'm pretty deep into the acceleration.
With a maximum of 800cc/min nozzle at full pump duty cycle like mine that means 3800/800 = almost 5 minutes of continuous WOT or high PT.
The car does 100-200kmph in like 8 seconds so 5 minutes of WOT means really hard driving for a pretty long time. Once finished your car should be at least as fast, it's heavier and has greater transmission losses but it will have more power and more fuel, while I rely on 12-15% of the fuelling on meth and this will not be entirely your case.

The factory ECU can deal with both the factory DI system and additional PI systems, one or several. In your case you will probably have two, the petrol port injection and the water/meth port injection.

To address the additional fuel in the system the tuner will have to scale the MAF calibration accordingly to how the WMI and port injection are configured to kick in. In my case I've set the WMI to trigger at 13.5PSI and to go full duty cycle at 20PSI, so my MAF calibration is scalled down about 10% starting around 230g/s (that's how much air my engine/turbo flows at 20-ish PSI around 4000-ish RPM), and from like 160g/s to 230g/s I scaled it down progressively from 0 to 10% to address the 13-20PSI interval.

In your case you will have to scale it down even more so that the ECU will command the factory DI injectors to stay open less and inject less fuel. Once the factory DI hits like 90-95% duty cycle (I guess you will have to use the MAF signal for that) you will have to start increasing the port injectors DC progressively to account for the excess of air that the OEM DI will not be able to satisfy.

So these are general guide lines. The actual trigger points and actual scaling factors will be decided by your tuner.
Based on your tuner recommendation of an additional 30l tank only for alcohol I have doubts they know what they're doing. I'm not saying they don't, I'm only saying I have doubts. Once you build the car (if not built already) and all the additional fuelling systems are confirmed to work properly I'd start working with either Stratified or Freektune.
With your exhaust setup, turbo, FoST IM, 4" intake and fuelling if the engine internals support (and pretty much all aftermarket forged internals do support this level of power) you can expect 600+ hp. Basically you can hit and exceed 500bhp with only the factory DI and two medium sized nozzles of water/meth, or break into 600 with multi-port meth (individual nozzles for each cylinder) and some PI controller so synchronize the spraying sequence.

So the 450hp expectation is quite modest, that's where I'm at with stock intake manifold (VCTS and EGR are not deleted!) and stock exhaust manifold and a less capable turbo than yours. Because of the poor intake setup I have to push the turbo at 30-31PSI but fuck it, if it breaks if breaks, I'll buy another one, I only live once so I want those 400+Hp every day in my live.
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Bilstein B12 + CS Camber plates + Eibach camber arms, SSR Type-F, Michelin PSS 225/40/R18, Cobb RMM, StopTech Street Pads + Stoptech Slotted disks, SouthBend ENduro Stage3 clutch, genpu TMM + CS Insert, TheSpeedLine 2X Rear Cross Floor and Rear Middle Lower Strut bars, Tanabe 4 Point Under Brace, Whiteline Bumpsteeer corection kit
JBR Tru-3" + CS CAI Box, SU TMIC, Cobb XLE, NGK LTR7IX, UR v3 catted DP and res TP, Cobb CatBack, GS EBCS, Autotech internals, GTX3071, CS 3.5BAR, Guardian Angel, CoolingMist WMI
SP63 87.5mm 4032 9.5:1 pistons, Manley rods, CA625+ head studs, Clevite AL main bearings, King rod bearings, CP-e safe seals, DCR VVT, Koyorad radiator.
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