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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection Have a CDFP fuel pump question? Do you want to add Nitrous or Water Injection to your Mazdaspeed 3/6 ? Please come on in!


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 Old 11-29-2011, 08:55 AM   #1
 
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@Realgib3
you said you where working on something for more fuel.
you going to spill the beans on this ??

"you will see soon. I'll get pics up as soon as I get a couple last minute changes made. Also, I fully intend on offering this as a kit once I know this approach will work as perfectly as I hope. Its not cheap but definitely the way to go and Ive done everything I can to make it as 'bolt on' and cross-platform friendly as possible."
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 Old 11-29-2011, 09:08 AM   #2
 
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subbed i want more fuel
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 Old 11-29-2011, 09:09 AM   #3
 
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Fuck the fuel. More pics of his girl....
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 Old 11-29-2011, 09:12 AM   #4
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[elmer fudd puh puh puh puh puh PENIS!/elmer fudd]
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 Old 11-29-2011, 09:12 AM   #5
 
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I must have missed that... now I want that to
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 Old 11-29-2011, 09:38 AM   #6
 
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What we need is no secret. The kit I put together is a full, secondary, PI fuel solution.

I'm on my phone now but I will use this thread to discuss the kit more in depth this evening, and hopefully work with everyone to gauge interest and discuss any changes or options everyone would like for the production kit.

Great things coming though guys!
(Including more pics of Mandy)
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 Old 11-29-2011, 10:03 AM   #7
 
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You got my attention!
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 Old 11-29-2011, 10:08 AM   #8
 
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Originally Posted by Realgib3 View Post
What we need is no secret. The kit I put together is a full, secondary, PI fuel solution.

I'm on my phone now but I will use this thread to discuss the kit more in depth this evening, and hopefully work with everyone to gauge interest and discuss any changes or options everyone would like for the production kit.

Great things coming though guys!
(Including more pics of Mandy)

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That's also why he fits in here. We're all a bunch of filthy, perverted, arrogant, pessimistic, self-righteous assholes who find entertainment at other peoples expense.
What a lovable bunch we are!!
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 Old 12-03-2011, 07:24 AM   #9
 
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2 weeks?
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 Old 12-06-2011, 03:32 PM   #10
 
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Sorry guys I suck at life lol, been a rough couple weeks. I prommmmmise I'll have updates tomorrow. I got some minor toe surgery in the morning then all I'll be doing is sitting at my pc.
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 Old 12-06-2011, 05:14 PM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by Realgib3 View Post
Sorry guys I suck at life lol, been a rough couple weeks. I prommmmmise I'll have updates tomorrow. I got some minor toe surgery in the morning then all I'll be doing is sitting at my pc.
Good luck with your toe! LOL
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 Old 12-06-2011, 05:20 PM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by Realgib3 View Post
Sorry guys I suck at life lol, been a rough couple weeks. I prommmmmise I'll have updates tomorrow. I got some minor toe surgery in the morning then all I'll be doing is sitting at my pc.
Bad case of Toe-lio?

Trust me, I empathize, I have a case of Small Cox.
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 Old 12-06-2011, 05:21 PM   #13
 
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What happened to your big toe were you and mandy doing some kinky shit?
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 Old 12-06-2011, 08:03 PM   #14
 
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BahahahH I love u guys. Yes it was because we were doing some seriously kinky shit... she's tough on me sometimes!
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 Old 12-07-2011, 04:06 PM   #15
 
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Did you thumb her?
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 Old 12-07-2011, 04:10 PM   #16
 
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what's all this then?
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 Old 12-07-2011, 08:10 PM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by Realgib3 View Post
Sorry guys I suck at life lol, been a rough couple weeks. I prommmmmise I'll have updates tomorrow. I got some minor toe surgery in the morning then all I'll be doing is sitting at my pc.
you have 1 hour and 51 minutes before you make yourself a liar....i mean 1 hr and 50 min...clock is ticking
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 Old 12-07-2011, 08:12 PM   #18
 
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Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W View Post
you have 1 hour and 51 minutes before you make yourself a liar....i mean 1 hr and 50 min...clock is ticking
lol damn you arent giving him any leeway at all
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 Old 12-07-2011, 08:18 PM   #19
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platform progress is like crack- i'm no where near needing fuel, yet here I am waiting........................................... .................................................. ............................ whats wrong with me? don't answer
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 Old 12-07-2011, 09:45 PM   #20
 
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2 weekz!
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 Old 12-07-2011, 10:11 PM   #21
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don't sell it to cp-e
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 Old 12-07-2011, 10:16 PM   #22
 
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Good thing Im local
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 Old 12-07-2011, 11:01 PM   #23
 
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Ok so here's the deal...
We've all been looking at one "wall" or another will this platform since day one... and the wall we're at now is fueling. Until recently the answer to the fueling wall has been using meth as a secondary fuel source(not what it's intended for). Aside from this option, we've a lways thrown around the thoughts of port injection, bigger injectors, and higher fuel pressure as our options for the future but nothin has come out.
while looking at those three options for aditional fueling, it became an easy decision for me that in the long run, port injection is the way to go. Btw this decision was made AFTER talking with DW and finding out that bigger DI injectors will probably be out in less than a year. We can discuss the cons of that later...
So after a lot of thought and deciding to go PI, we had to decide how to do it obviously
Questions that came up:
1. Stock tank or separate? And if separate, what kind/size?
2. If stock tank, what Fuel pump(s)?
3. Return(less)?
4.sizes for the lines?
5.how to mount and run everything?
6.what fuel rail?
7.what injector(s)?
8.How the fuck do we control it?
9. How universal can it be?
10. Cost and the other 1000000295 questions...

So afterer taking everything into account, here's what we came up with, and what will be running on my car...

Tank-decided on running a fuel cell. Wanted something ~5gal and ended up finding the perfect one at 4gal. The tank mounts perfectly to the "40" split if the back seats on the 3's which allows close to full use of the hatch and you can still get to your spare.

Pump/filter/regulator- from the tank, you'll go though and inline 255 and inline filter in a return style system with a 40-80psi regulator at the rail.

Rail/injectors /manifold - The rail is custom. Money wise it was a no brainer to go that route, plus the injectors line up perfect on the manifold instead if trying to use other rails that almost line up. Injectirs are one part I'm still deciding on, the nice thing about the PI is that this is where our optiins are limitless andnot a lot will need to be modified between injectors other than the harness and obviously tuning. Basically my decision right now is coming down to price and hight of the injectors, but will be around 285cc and 330'sthe but u can go as big as u want. And if u havent caught on this will be direct port in the IM. We can do the work on your stock mani or just send the kit, to be used with an aftermarket one.
Lines /fittings /misc- choice of hose or braided ss lines, AN fittings either way and -6 all around.

Lastly... tuning! It has come down to 2 options. The first is a fuel only controller which, coupled with an rpm signal converter will just use rpm to batch fire the injectie based on voltage or boost. The second is about $50-80 more and brings more complexity, but offers some timing control and has a much nicer software suite to deal with. Both will be voltage or boost based and, if using the voltage, option, will be fairly easy to tune in conjuntion with ATR.

So I dont want pic s up till I'm satisfied with a couple more things and have it tuned but that shod give u all a good idea of what I want to put out. I have tonnnns more details to share but This was all on my phone since I couldn't drive home to my PC today and no internet here. Really wanted to get what I could out to u guys though.

So everyone, questions, comments, concerns??? Please discuss here and we'll get this thing perfect and out to the community.

Thanks for theee patience!

Originally Posted by 802MS3 View Post
don't sell it to cp-e
Fuck no I/we at our shop will be personally handling this one. I'm too close to it to let anything go elsewhere.

Edit:Everything was done with E85 in mind cuz I love it.

Oh and I'll need a Six and a pu to mock a couple things up on
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Last edited by Realgib3; 12-07-2011 at 11:12 PM. Reason: MSF Database - Automerged Doublepost
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 Old 12-08-2011, 03:38 AM   #24
 
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Better late than never lol jk sounds like an awesome kit. I do have some questions though:
I am assuming this will be in addition to the stock fueling system. Am I right in this assumption? Basically add a set amount of fuel this way then fine tune with stock system?

Also, do you have a price range set for this?

Will the tank be in a firewalled container (ie allowed on track)

Are all lines run outside the car?

Thanks again!!!
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 Old 12-08-2011, 03:57 AM   #25
 
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Originally Posted by Realgib3 View Post

Edit:Everything was done with E85 in mind cuz I love it.

Oh and I'll need a Six and a pu to mock a couple things up on
I'm local with my Pu. You got my cell cell number, hit me up.
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 Old 12-08-2011, 06:47 AM   #26
 
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So basically it will be similar to running direct port meth injection? Except with pump gas or e85 instead of meth... Won't you have to figure out a way to control the timing/fire order of the injectors though? Or will it just be dumping fuel when the conditions are met?
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 Old 12-08-2011, 07:31 AM   #27
 
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only thing i dont like about batch fire is your spraying on the back of closed valves, then it opens, dumps a spash of fuel on the hole, or is it happening to fast to be a problem?
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 Old 12-08-2011, 07:56 AM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by rigor View Post
only thing i dont like about batch fire is your spraying on the back of closed valves, then it opens, dumps a spash of fuel on the hole, or is it happening to fast to be a problem?
That was my concern. If that was the case, one injector pre, or directly after the throttle body would probably be more than enough to get the job done.
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 Old 12-08-2011, 10:48 AM   #29
 
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Yay questions! And I'm finally at my computer!!!


Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W View Post
Better late than never lol jk sounds like an awesome kit. I do have some questions though:
I am assuming this will be in addition to the stock fueling system. Am I right in this assumption? Basically add a set amount of fuel this way then fine tune with stock system?

Also, do you have a price range set for this?

Will the tank be in a firewalled container (ie allowed on track)

Are all lines run outside the car?

Thanks again!!!
1. Yes this will be in addition to the stock fueling. I'd like to basically keep the stock system (IDC%) between 65-75%%, while using the auxiliary injectors for the rest. There are a few reasons for this approach, but the two main reasons are A. The pulse width of the DI system will be nice and short/efficient and B. It will allow the stock ECU room to modulate fuel + or - to reach your desired AFR.

2. Price - TBD. Bottom line is, I'm not a company and not in this to make a fortune. I've been in the same shoes everyone else here, and I want to help further the platform. Price will be reasonable and will basically have a few different options.

Opt 1- Fuel system w/1 injector (Assumes you will install injector near TB)
Opt 2- Fuel system w/4 injectors (Assumes you will install injectors in aftermarket IM)
Opt 3- Complete System w/4 Injectors and PnP Stock mani w/weld in inj bungs.

Also, each of these will have the option of normal -6AN hose or SS lines. Tuning will also be optional. We have an amazing group of tuners here and any of them will be able to handle this, obviously their cost. I will also personally offer tunes with the system, which will obviously be an added cost. I charge a competitive price for e-tunes and would certainly charge less if added in with the fuel system.
As far as final price, I have a fairly good idea, but want to gauge the interest level a bit, so I can see if getting certain parts in bulk will be an option. If that's the case, then the price will obviously drop. Just not ready yet to come out with anything definitive.

3. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by firewalled, but tank does meet the standards for most racing and includes safety foam and venting. Also, if you want a different tank, that's always an option. This tank just met all requirements perfectly for fit/finish/function.

4. Lines are run outside the car, basically with the stock lines, for the most part.


So basically it will be similar to running direct port meth injection? Except with pump gas or e85 instead of meth... Won't you have to figure out a way to control the timing/fire order of the injectors though? Or will it just be dumping fuel when the conditions are met?
Very similar to running PI meth... to a point lol.
In fact, when I originally started this, we contacted DO and Aquamist to see if we could just use a modified version of one of their kits...and...no go lol. Basically, even though the Surflo pumps will "handle" gas mixes, nobody will warranty it because of safety reasons AND the pumps cannot handle as much use as we would want/need.
UNLIKE a PI meth system currently available, this will NOT just be dumping fuel. We actually did speak with a company about using a constant flow system, like current meth systems, but designed for gasoline and decided against it. Although the ease of tuning would be great, I just don't think it's the RIGHT option.

Only thing i don't like about batch fire is your spraying on the back of closed valves, then it opens, dumps a splash of fuel on the hole, or is it happening to fast to be a problem?
Among other things... too fast to be a problem. You will never get enough of a "puddle" to have this be an issue.
Much of the issues people run into with larger injectors or secondary injector only happen at idle and low load, which will never be where our secondary fueling is needed.
To be proactive here, the other issues I speak of that we won't have to worry about are: Injector angle in the manifold, size of injectors, spray pattern, etc.

You do however bring up a GREAT benefit to running Direct PI... CLEAN VALVES!

That was my concern. If that was the case, one injector pre, or directly after the throttle body would probably be more than enough to get the job done.
One, big injector will certainly do the trick-ish. I've thought about it a lot and this will most likely be an option. HOWEVER it is NOT my recommendation. When you go this route, you'll run into all the issues we have with current meth setups, the biggest being uneven fuel distribution.
This will obviously be more prevalent in cars running the stock IM, but will still happen even with aftermarket mani's.
IF we had the ability to see afr and knock events PER CYLINDER, like some other platforms, I would feel more comfortable with this, but currently we do not.

OK keep the questions coming! I'm happy to answer anything I can.

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 Old 12-08-2011, 12:12 PM   #30
 
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I'm gonna get the JMF IM when they release one with the ability to add PI. So I will probably be going with OP2. Will there be any cooling effects (similar to meth) by injecting gas through the intake mani? Or would it be possible to run port fuel injection and meth injection at the same time?
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 Old 12-08-2011, 12:22 PM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by JacksonMS30 View Post
I'm gonna get the JMF IM when they release one with the ability to add PI. So I will probably be going with OP2. Will there be any cooling effects (similar to meth) by injecting gas through the intake mani? Or would it be possible to run port fuel injection and meth injection at the same time?
No cooling from port injected gas/E because it's post-BAT sensor, and running meth will most likely have to be done off a second controller.

For an all in one solution, I looked at running a Standback/ProFuel controller because it would be ideal. Problem is it's got waaaay more than we need which makes it insanely cost INeffective.
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 Old 12-08-2011, 10:42 PM   #32
 
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