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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection Have a CDFP fuel pump question? Do you want to add Nitrous or Water Injection to your Mazdaspeed 3/6 ? Please come on in!


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 Old 01-10-2011, 04:07 PM   #1
 
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Default Upgraded Fuel Rail Valve Before And After Logs

First Log you can see Injector Duty Cycle hitting %'s as high as 85% @ ~5700 RPM and 11.17 AFR , also note pressures oscillating as the stock 1875 psi valve opens and closes

Second log after 2150 psi valve is installed we see 75% IDC @ ~5700 RPM and 10.88 AFR. Holding right around 2000 psi the entire log. (This was with 1900 PSI commanded in ATR in both before and after logs) As you can see there is obviously alot more available fuel with the higher fuel pressures allowed with the higher pressure relief valve.

Note i just started boost based tuning with Christian@Cobb so these AFR's and timing are commanded to be very conservative while we tune boost. (Car still feels like a bat out of hell compared to before on load based tuning @ 22 psi!) I cant wait till we lean it out and up the timing into the teens Currently running KMD Internals, only change between the logs was the installation of the valve.
Attached Files
File Type: csv BeforeValve.csv (1.9 KB, 95 views)
File Type: csv AfterValve.csv (2.0 KB, 61 views)
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 Old 01-10-2011, 05:58 PM   #2
 
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I have this same valve and i cannot wait to begin testing it.
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 Old 01-10-2011, 06:54 PM   #3
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where did u get your valve?
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 Old 01-10-2011, 08:27 PM   #4
 
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Its a dirty word around these parts.
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 Old 01-10-2011, 08:36 PM   #5
 
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Good shit, awsome research and testing.
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 Old 01-10-2011, 09:35 PM   #6
 
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Yep a very dirty word, we would be called traitors!
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 Old 10-07-2011, 02:52 PM   #7
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Does anything need to be changed after installing this?
Running 1.08 map now
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 Old 10-07-2011, 03:00 PM   #8
 
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Might just have to give him another shot if this pans out as good as it should.
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 Old 10-07-2011, 04:08 PM   #9
 
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I have one and I have stable as hell fuel pressure . All just above 2k
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 Old 10-11-2011, 09:50 AM   #10
 
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What's involved with the install? Easy?

I was trying to locate the stock RV near my CDFP and couldn't find it. Is it internal to the hardline?

I really want to give this a shot if it's a simple bolton/tune away from more power.
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 Old 10-11-2011, 10:51 AM   #11
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It appears that for now increased FP is the best way to buy more injector headroom. Is this valve custom made or off the shelf material made to fit?
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 Old 10-11-2011, 11:00 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
It appears that for now increased FP is the best way to buy more injector headroom. Is this valve custom made or off the shelf material made to fit?
John's valve is a custom made direct OEM replacement. It looks and fits like the OEM valve and can be set to any pressure you want (with in a range.) It is not adjustable once he sets it. He sets it, tests it to make sure it cracks at the proper pressure and then scores it to make sure it holds that setting.

Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
What's involved with the install? Easy?

I was trying to locate the stock RV near my CDFP and couldn't find it. Is it internal to the hardline?
Very straight forward and not technically complicated, but sort of a pain in the ass because of the limited space in the area. The valve comes off the back of the fuel rail (along the block) on the drivers side of the car. Just trace the soft line from the HPFP down to it.
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 Old 10-11-2011, 11:07 AM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by Erich View Post
John's valve is a custom made direct OEM replacement. It looks and fits like the OEM valve and can be set to any pressure you want (with in a range.) It is not adjustable once he sets it. He sets it, tests it to make sure it cracks at the proper pressure and then scores it to make sure it holds that setting.



Very straight forward and not technically complicated, but sort of a pain in the ass because of the limited space in the area. The valve comes off the back of the fuel rail (along the block) on the drivers side of the car. Just trace the soft line from the HPFP down to it.
Nice! So this would be best/easiest to install with an intake manifold swap?

Is 2250 a safe/reliable number to shoot for with this valve?

Thanks!
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 Old 10-11-2011, 11:11 AM   #14
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you cant shoot for anything higher then 2025 without an upgraded FP sensor.

also you dont need to remove anything but the rail guard to swap RV's
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 Old 10-11-2011, 11:16 AM   #15
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I really don't think have the intake manifold out of the way will help much... certainly won't hurt though. Also make it easier to remove the cage at the end of the fuel rail which will make the valve replacement easier.

As of right now the most we can target is ~2050. The reason for this is that the ECU with stock sensor can only see up to ~2073 and requesting anything over that results in the ECU just opening things up full bore (since it thinks it is stuck at 2073) and creating pressures the injectors can't handle (is an assumption, car goes pig rich and bogs.)

Cobb was working on opening up tables to allow us to use a different fuel pressure sensor, but they ran into issues and shelved it for now with no idea of when work on it will resume. So for right now, with the AP we are stuck at 2050 or so.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
you cant shoot for anything higher then 2025 without an upgraded FP sensor.

also you dont need to remove anything but the rail guard to swap RV's
Don't even really need to remove the rail guard. I did all my swaps when I was testing different valves for john with the guard on.
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 Old 10-11-2011, 11:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
Nice! So this would be best/easiest to install with an intake manifold swap?

Is 2250 a safe/reliable number to shoot for with this valve?

Thanks!
Keep in mind that other areas of the fuel system may become a problem as pressure increases. Injectors opening, fuel pump, lines, etc.

A mild increase should be fine ... but too far upstream is uncharted territory and I would not be surprised to see other things needing replacement.
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 Old 10-11-2011, 11:22 AM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by Erich View Post
I really don't think have the intake manifold out of the way will help much... certainly won't hurt though. Also make it easier to remove the cage at the end of the fuel rail which will make the valve replacement easier.

As of right now the most we can target is ~2050. The reason for this is that the ECU with stock sensor can only see up to ~2073 and requesting anything over that results in the ECU just opening things up full bore (since it thinks it is stuck at 2073) and creating pressures the injectors can't handle (is an assumption, car goes pig rich and bogs.)

Cobb was working on opening up tables to allow us to use a different fuel pressure sensor, but they ran into issues and shelved it for now with no idea of when work on it will resume. So for right now, with the AP we are stuck at 2050 or so.



Don't even really need to remove the rail guard. I did all my swaps when I was testing different valves for john with the guard on.
Man, that sucks that they hit a wall there... The gains of another 200 psi would net pretty nice gains on a serious setup.

However, if I'm shooting for a reliable 400-425~ AWHP uncorrected, would the current 2050 and stock sensor suffice? (I'd assume so seeing as how you made much more with that setup right?)

If so I'll just jump on it now. Thanks guys!
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 Old 10-11-2011, 11:22 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Keep in mind that other areas of the fuel system may become a problem as pressure increases. Injectors opening, fuel pump, lines, etc.

A mild increase should be fine ... but too far upstream is uncharted territory and I would not be surprised to see other things needing replacement.

I was running ~2050 with just stage 1 pump internals for 6 months with out seeing issues, so the pressure the AP is capable of right now should be alright with just upgraded pump internals.

I was going to try to put a secondary sensor on and request over 2073 again to get an idea of where fuel pressure was getting to to cause a problem but never got around to it.
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 Old 10-11-2011, 11:27 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
Man, that sucks that they hit a wall there... The gains of another 200 psi would net pretty nice gains on a serious setup.

However, if I'm shooting for a reliable 400-425~ AWHP uncorrected, would the current 2050 and stock sensor suffice? (I'd assume so seeing as how you made much more with that setup right?)

If so I'll just jump on it now. Thanks guys!
Depends on where you are revving to. With my car at 2050PSI we started to see IDC issues at the top of 4th and 5th at around 400-420 HP (estimated, we never dynod this configuration.) But we are also revving to 7300 RPM and didn't start seeing problems until around 6900 or so. So yes I think it may be possible to hit that range in the speed6.
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 Old 10-11-2011, 02:20 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Erich View Post
Depends on where you are revving to. With my car at 2050PSI we started to see IDC issues at the top of 4th and 5th at around 400-420 HP (estimated, we never dynod this configuration.) But we are also revving to 7300 RPM and didn't start seeing problems until around 6900 or so. So yes I think it may be possible to hit that range in the speed6.
So if you ran out of injector at 400-420, what did you do to get another 100whp worth of fuel?
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 Old 10-11-2011, 02:28 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
So if you ran out of injector at 400-420, what did you do to get another 100whp worth of fuel?
An M4 nozzle on each of the ports and an M3 on the cold side of the intercooler all spraying an 80/20 mix of meth.

This provided two benefits:
1) Allowed us to lean out the car more (Realgibs results indicated you may not need the meth to do this, but I like the safety.)
2) Provided supplemental fuel. I know it isn't the most elegant way or the best fuel to use, but I was (still am) hoping there will be solutions for bigger injectors and more fuel pressure that will allow for more with primary fueling system and would prefer not to go through the trouble (or money) of installing a more elegant secondary fueling system when this gets the job done. This required tuning for the meth by modifying the MAF curve.

These two benefits combined gave 25-30% IDC in the high RPMs.

Edit to add: The initial fueling problems we saw were due to the high RPMs and because my power is climbing all the way to redline. The 450-500 range may very well be obtainable on stock fueling at lower RPMs.

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 Old 10-11-2011, 11:45 PM   #22
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Won't work at any RPM. HP requires a certain amount of oxygen and fuel.

Let's say the car makes 400 ft lbs of torque at 4k RPM. That amount of torque requires X amount of fuel. As RPMs rise the fueling window drops out. So look at the inj PW that is required to make that much torque in the lower RPMs. Then see if you have enough fueling window to do this at the RPM you're trying to reach peak hp.

To make 500whp at 6500 RPM you need 400 ft lbs of torque at the wheels. How large is the PW when you are making 400 ft lbs on the dyno? Can that PW be run at 6500 RPM?

The fueling window (intake and compression stroke) is 360 degrees - or 9.23 ms at 6500 RPM.

To make ~350 ft lbs of torque you need around 10 ms PW at ~1800psi.

So the stock fueling limit at 1800psi given this back of the napkin math is ~400- maybe 420whp which is about what you guys found.

If you try to make the power at a lower RPM, you need more torque and more torque needs more fuel and you're up against the fueling ceiling again because the PW needs to be larger.
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 Old 10-12-2011, 04:01 AM   #23
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Cobb estimated our injectors at 420hp at 7200rpm, since our injectors flow X grams at X injection window then you can double the fuel flow by halving rpm which doubles the injection window. Using that ricer math you can basically figure out the limits of the injectors at any rpm.
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 Old 10-12-2011, 05:14 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Won't work at any RPM. HP requires a certain amount of oxygen and fuel.

Let's say the car makes 400 ft lbs of torque at 4k RPM. That amount of torque requires X amount of fuel. As RPMs rise the fueling window drops out. So look at the inj PW that is required to make that much torque in the lower RPMs. Then see if you have enough fueling window to do this at the RPM you're trying to reach peak hp.

To make 500whp at 6500 RPM you need 400 ft lbs of torque at the wheels. How large is the PW when you are making 400 ft lbs on the dyno? Can that PW be run at 6500 RPM?

The fueling window (intake and compression stroke) is 360 degrees - or 9.23 ms at 6500 RPM.

To make ~350 ft lbs of torque you need around 10 ms PW at ~1800psi.

So the stock fueling limit at 1800psi given this back of the napkin math is ~400- maybe 420whp which is about what you guys found.

If you try to make the power at a lower RPM, you need more torque and more torque needs more fuel and you're up against the fueling ceiling again because the PW needs to be larger.

why would you count the compression stroke as part of the fueling window?
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 Old 10-12-2011, 07:39 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
why would you count the compression stroke as part of the fueling window?
Because the ECU fuels during both intake and compression right up to the spark event.
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 Old 10-12-2011, 08:37 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Because the ECU fuels during both intake and compression right up to the spark event.
fml i was thinking compression = power haha
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 Old 10-12-2011, 10:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Won't work at any RPM. HP requires a certain amount of oxygen and fuel.

Let's say the car makes 400 ft lbs of torque at 4k RPM. That amount of torque requires X amount of fuel. As RPMs rise the fueling window drops out. So look at the inj PW that is required to make that much torque in the lower RPMs. Then see if you have enough fueling window to do this at the RPM you're trying to reach peak hp.

To make 500whp at 6500 RPM you need 400 ft lbs of torque at the wheels. How large is the PW when you are making 400 ft lbs on the dyno? Can that PW be run at 6500 RPM?

The fueling window (intake and compression stroke) is 360 degrees - or 9.23 ms at 6500 RPM.

To make ~350 ft lbs of torque you need around 10 ms PW at ~1800psi.

So the stock fueling limit at 1800psi given this back of the napkin math is ~400- maybe 420whp which is about what you guys found.

If you try to make the power at a lower RPM, you need more torque and more torque needs more fuel and you're up against the fueling ceiling again because the PW needs to be larger.
Man I've been having a lot of duh moments lately... must be getting too close to 40 and going geriatric. Less strokes means more energy per stroke which like you said means more fuel per stroke.
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 Old 10-22-2011, 05:00 PM   #28
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I have been contemplating installing mine...just don't know if I will gain anything without having a BT
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 Old 10-26-2011, 04:15 PM   #29
 
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you will gain absolutly nothing from it
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 Old 12-20-2011, 02:19 PM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by oh_yeams6 View Post
I have been contemplating installing mine...just don't know if I will gain anything without having a BT


I am no expert but you should at least get slightly better mpgs with the higher dispersion rate and atomization.
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 Old 12-23-2011, 03:30 AM   #31
 
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No you still won't gain anything because the valve is t what causes you to run at a higher psi. It just allows you to do so
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