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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Fuel, Nitrous & Water Injection Have a CDFP fuel pump question? Do you want to add Nitrous or Water Injection to your Mazdaspeed 3/6 ? Please come on in!


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 Old 10-06-2011, 12:58 PM   #1
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Default Upgraded ITFP Options!!!!!!!!!

so i realize that the stock ITFP is good for more whp then our HPFP can even use but theres been a few failures as of late and im looking into replacing it with something a little better with as little modification as possible.

here are some past threads from people like Whooosh and ATE Baller who did "drop in" walbro 255's which diddent really end up being drop in at all.


heres the voltage tests

in-tank fuel pump voltage tests - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum

stock FP flow data

in tank OEM fuel pump flow data - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum

how to for swapping ITFP with the walbro

In Tank Fuel Pump Upgrade How-to - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum



IMO the dual walbro setup that @socks had and the single upgrades that people like @JumpingJackson have are completely unnecessary as far as needing to buy and external regulator and convert to a return style system. we really only need a more RELIABLE pump as our stock one flows more then enough already.

so here are my thoughts so far on the best way i plan about doing this. first of all you need 2 things really to complete this project, a pump, and a regulator.

the walbro GSS-342 is the closest size to our stock pump and even uses the same electrical connector. now the problem with using this pump is that its slightly longer then the stocker so when you go to put the bucket back together you end up squishing the filter on bottom between the pump and the bottom of the bucket. this is obviously not good for flow so we need some other sort of solution.

my next thought was to ditch the sleeve inside the bucket but then realized we need some sort of replacement for the bult in regulator. so i started looking into the regulators that other DI platforms are using and i came across this:

Audi - A3 - 2.0T FSI - Maintenance - OE - Fuel Filter - KMD Tuning




its an external 6.4bar (~92psi) combination regulator and filter that the 2.0 FSI uses. this would be the PERFECT upgrade as it gives us a slight boost in pressure, adds a filter, and has simple/clean connections in and out. the only problem i see right now is the size and whether it would survive being put INSIDE the tank vs outside. if we did need to mount it outside we would just need to run a short length of hose for the return back to the tank (lol there i go eating my words haha, although the return is only for the pressure bled off after 6.4 bar)

@Dano is sending me the SST when hes done with it so i can pull my bucket and do some inspections. im currently trying to find the dimensions of that VW reg/filter but KMD is supposed to call me back. rockauto seems to have some OEM replacements from fram and other stores so i might run by pepboys later and see if i can find one in person to take a look at.

does anyone have any thoughts/comments/questions?
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 Old 10-06-2011, 01:07 PM   #2
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I had the issue in another car of the walbro being too long and squishing the filter, so I cut a hole in the bottom of the plastic fp 'surge can' for the filter to stick thru, and that worked out great. Same model walbro too. Is it possible to try that?
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 Old 10-06-2011, 01:21 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by chimmike View Post
I had the issue in another car of the walbro being too long and squishing the filter, so I cut a hole in the bottom of the plastic fp 'surge can' for the filter to stick thru, and that worked out great. Same model walbro too. Is it possible to try that?
i dont think its possible on the 6's because of the way the venturi system brings fuel back into the bucket to avoid starvation. theres some discussion about this in the links above and it may even be a problem on the 3's too. so you essentially need to keep the bucket as is because its like a mini surge tank for the pump.
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 Old 10-06-2011, 01:26 PM   #4
 
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Subbed for developments.
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 Old 10-06-2011, 01:49 PM   #5

 
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I need to study those linked threads. I need a return style setup to be able to setup an FPR for the secondary injectors.... I have no idea how to do a returnless system with an FPR.


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 Old 10-06-2011, 02:17 PM   #6
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is there anything I can do this weekend while working on mine to aid the cause?
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 Old 10-06-2011, 02:24 PM   #7
 
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Subbed wanna see what the out come for this is
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 Old 10-06-2011, 02:30 PM   #8
 
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Subbed since I will probably do this
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 Old 10-06-2011, 02:38 PM   #9
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if you're going to do port fueling secondary, why not put in a 5+gal fuel cell and run separate lines that way? Doesn't need to be AN, you can make hard lines cheap and run yer own shit.
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 Old 10-06-2011, 03:37 PM   #10
 
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This may work for you guys. We've got an FI 3 on the other forum trying this piece out this weekend. It will be setup for a return style system. Should be a direct bolt-on for us. It could possibly work for the speed3's if isn't much different than the 3 setup. Maybe we can compare some dimensions with @Dano..

SVT FOCUS ! Fuel Pump Replacement 255lph | eBay

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 Old 10-06-2011, 03:59 PM   #11

 
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
is there anything I can do this weekend while working on mine to aid the cause?
Look for a good spot to stick a return hose and measure the stock fuel pump length and OD.

Just FYI, the specs for that 400lph walbro unit state it's OD is 39mm, which, per the thread linked, is the same as stock.

Lots of funny posts in that thread, knowing what we know now 4 years later.


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 Old 10-06-2011, 04:01 PM   #12
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yeah I think Anthony stated its the length that gets ya and prevents a "drop in" install of a 255

I'll get requested info
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 Old 10-06-2011, 06:02 PM   #13

 
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
IMO the dual walbro setup that @socks had and the single upgrades that people like @JumpingJackson have are completely unnecessary as far as needing to buy and external regulator and convert to a return style system. we really only need a more RELIABLE pump as our stock one flows more then enough already.
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 Old 10-06-2011, 06:08 PM   #14

 
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also remember that if you ditch the sleeve in there, you will need to keep the tank level up to keep the bucket level up, or find another way to keep the bucket level up, by maintaining the stock venturi system in the bucket (which comes off the regulator, and sprays fuel on the back side of the door, creating a low pressure zone that sucks fuel into the bucket even when tank levels are low. I used the return on my regulator to the stock feed line, and plumbed that to the venturi nozzle.

good luck PM me if you have any questions
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 Old 10-06-2011, 06:09 PM   #15
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stock dimensions are 38mm for the pump body and 40mm for the sleeve. the walbro is 41mm.

@Dano, take as many freaking picts as you can haha. i dont need like install picts but try and document exactly how the whole thing works. go over where the fuel enters, how it travels through the bucket and pump and regulator, where it returns to the bucket ect. just take picts and point or mark where all of this shit happens so we all can understand how this thing works. one thing i DONT want to do is fuck up the way the pump sucks fuel from the tank (or from the other side in the case of the MS6).

i plan to pretty much use these same picts and take my own when i get the tool from you.

also if you could go over EXACTLY how to use the tool and some tips and tricks that would be awesome. i remember whoosh saying it took some serious force to get that cap off haha. also document how it goes back on and where things need to be aligned. this is all in the service manual but picts and a real persons account is always better.

i have a 314mb searchable pdf of the manual i was going to send you but the biggest free online sender thing i could find has a 300mb limit. find another way for me to get it to ya (or anyone else) and ill send it to u.
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 Old 10-06-2011, 06:16 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by socks View Post
also remember that if you ditch the sleeve in there, you will need to keep the tank level up to keep the bucket level up, or find another way to keep the bucket level up, by maintaining the stock venturi system in the bucket (which comes off the regulator, and sprays fuel on the back side of the door, creating a low pressure zone that sucks fuel into the bucket even when tank levels are low. I used the return on my regulator to the stock feed line, and plumbed that to the venturi nozzle.

good luck PM me if you have any questions

this is exactly why we need to figure out how this shit works and why i have my test mule @Dano to guide us with his shiny red nose haha

cant say i knew any of that stuff above but its def included in that whole "lets understand this bitch before we go and fuck it up" haha
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 Old 10-06-2011, 06:16 PM   #17
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I'll PM you FTP info to upload to my site. I WANT a searchable manual FTW

what is our limit to upload here?
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 Old 10-06-2011, 06:22 PM   #18

 
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
this is exactly why we need to figure out how this shit works and why i have my test mule @Dano to guide us with his shiny red nose haha

cant say i knew any of that stuff above but its def included in that whole "lets understand this bitch before we go and fuck it up" haha
all you had to do is ask :-P i know how all that junk works.

pm me if you have any direct questions. ill try to keep eyes on this thread

with the way i set it up, i could run the tank dry before starving the engine of fuel. if you dont maintain that venturi, or some other method to keep the bucket full, you'll have to keep the tank above 1/4ish. if you dig around, you'll find thats pretty common with walbro swaps, as those pumps do not like being run dry.
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 Old 10-06-2011, 06:24 PM   #19
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im my experimentation here i really need to see this bucket first hand to see what everything means. i read that whoosh thread twice and im still hung up on some shit haha
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 Old 10-08-2011, 01:41 AM   #20
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Not trying to crap on the thread or anything but the itfp is basically just a lift pump and it doesnt need more than a few psi at the cdfp to work properly. I bet our stock itfp can max the stock fuel lines capacity in the lower pressure ranges so a upgrade pump isnt going to flow a whole lot more unless the fuel lines are also upgraded.

Unless I am way off, I dont see the point of doing a walbro 255 upgrade if you are keeping the stock fuel lines because there is not alot to be gained in flow and I dont think they are more reliable.

Having said that, I would totally rock one if a drop in unit was found.

To add something of use to the thread, I remember someone saying that there is a drop in ford fuel tank basket that may be walbro compatible. I cant remember what car it was from though.
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 Old 10-08-2011, 06:28 AM   #21

 
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Yes, but if one were to setup a return system, and use the stock line as the return...


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 Old 10-08-2011, 07:59 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by 06Speed6 View Post

To add something of use to the thread, I remember someone saying that there is a drop in ford fuel tank basket that may be walbro compatible. I cant remember what car it was from though.
maybe but the top of the assembly is very specialized and has a positioning key built in that locks into the retainer that attaches to the tank top. maybe all fords..cough cough mazdas are the same pump setup.

I'll add pictures to my ITFP replacement thread.

ITFP replacement
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 Old 10-08-2011, 08:36 AM   #23
 
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If I were you guys, I'd wait about 5 weeks before you do any more experimenting with these. Give it time...

It'll be okay...
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 Old 10-08-2011, 12:32 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
maybe but the top of the assembly is very specialized and has a positioning key built in that locks into the retainer that attaches to the tank top. maybe all fords..cough cough mazdas are the same pump setup.

I'll add pictures to my ITFP replacement thread.

ITFP replacement
Considering that half of our parts are stamped Ford, ide say its probably likely that we share the basket with another car. I know we share alot with the fusion.
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 Old 10-08-2011, 02:11 PM   #25
 
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Since the Euro-Focus finally made it across the pond, there should be a few parts shared between that and the MS3 as well.
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 Old 10-08-2011, 02:39 PM   #26
 
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I don't know how unnecessary it is to do a walbro . I was able to pull 440 g/s at 7200 before making out my inj . Before installing the rail valve or spraying the meth. I haven't heard of any that high off meth or upgraded valve or that high of rpm. Plus the factory pump Is probably working very hard and getting hot as hell to supply the fuel and heating the fuel up like crazy . Hot fuel is no good. Especially after the hpfp gets its hands on it . The hpfp is applying tremendous pressure to the fuel heating it up even more . So maybe It's worth it just for keeping it cooler and fuel more dense.
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 Old 10-08-2011, 02:56 PM   #27

 
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thats the benefit of the dual walbros i ran.... two of them had no effort keeping the low pressure system at 80psi, then that made it that much easier for the CDFP.
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 Old 10-08-2011, 04:00 PM   #28
 
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Did you have a build thread of that setup, @socks?
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 Old 10-08-2011, 04:18 PM   #29

 
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yea, i just bumped it. let me grab a link.

Dual Walbro 255lph Pump Install Pictures

oh my, im soooo 2009.
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 Old 10-09-2011, 12:09 AM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by manny View Post
This may work for you guys. We've got an FI 3 on the other forum trying this piece out this weekend. It will be setup for a return style system. Should be a direct bolt-on for us. It could possibly work for the speed3's if isn't much different than the 3 setup. Maybe we can compare some dimensions with @Dano..

SVT FOCUS ! Fuel Pump Replacement 255lph | eBay

Just some more info here, it seems to be that this svt 255lph pump is a direct fit with no modification on the mz3. If the ms3 is any similar, this should be a very cheap solution to running a proper return style system for you guys.





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 Old 10-09-2011, 10:01 AM   #31
 
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 Old 10-10-2011, 01:10 AM   #32
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Is the basket for the ms3 and ms6 the same as far as fuel pump fitment goes?
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 Old 10-10-2011, 01:33 AM   #33
 
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Skates, almost any in tank "drop in" pump is only good to about 80 psi before the flow just drops off the map. Since the pump can only flow to 80 psi that 92 psi regulator wont be beneficial. You would need a regulator to keep the pressure under about 75psi (always like to leave a safety cushion).
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 Old 10-10-2011, 02:44 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by manny View Post
This may work for you guys. We've got an FI 3 on the other forum trying this piece out this weekend. It will be setup for a return style system. Should be a direct bolt-on for us. It could possibly work for the speed3's if isn't much different than the 3 setup. Maybe we can compare some dimensions with @Dano..

SVT FOCUS ! Fuel Pump Replacement 255lph | eBay
how did this turn out? What is the lph of our OE pump? I thought ours was already 255

wait this is a return style pump...so not a direct replacement unless you are wanting to add a return?

I am confised with all these ITFP threads lol
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 Old 10-10-2011, 04:26 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by 06Speed6 View Post
Is the basket for the ms3 and ms6 the same as far as fuel pump fitment goes?
no idea, as soon as i get my SST we can find out lol

Originally Posted by mtnrunner View Post
Skates, almost any in tank "drop in" pump is only good to about 80 psi before the flow just drops off the map. Since the pump can only flow to 80 psi that 92 psi regulator wont be beneficial. You would need a regulator to keep the pressure under about 75psi (always like to leave a safety cushion).
AFAIK, if you were to just put a walbro in your tank, it would push WAYYYY more then 80 psi through your lines. thats why we need the regulator so help keep pressure down and constant. im more curious to hear marcus's comments on the stock fuel lines. if the stock lines cant handle any more flow then a new pump is worthless. but upping the pressure in the same sized line will always net u more flow.


Originally Posted by Dano View Post
how did this turn out? What is the lph of our OE pump? I thought ours was already 255

wait this is a return style pump...so not a direct replacement unless you are wanting to add a return?

I am confised with all these ITFP threads lol
our OE pump can flow 260 if you up the voltage to 16v, its been tested and the link is in the OP lol.

we DONT want to do a return style system here, we need the simplest solution possible. the whole point of this thread is a more RELIABLE drop in replacement. we already know the ITFP can keep up with more fuel then our total fuel system can even handle (aka ITFP is NOT our weak link for more fueling).
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 Old 10-10-2011, 10:49 PM   #36
 
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
how did this turn out? What is the lph of our OE pump? I thought ours was already 255

wait this is a return style pump...so not a direct replacement unless you are wanting to add a return?

I am confised with all these ITFP threads lol
this is guy I was talking about...so he should be able to clarify

Intank Fuel Pump Solution

from what I understand its a drop-in and doesn't require a return setup but there are advantages to a return setup as well thats probably why there is a lot of talk/confusion about the strategy.
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 Old 10-11-2011, 07:44 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by manny View Post
Just some more info here, it seems to be that this svt 255lph pump is a direct fit with no modification on the mz3. If the ms3 is any similar, this should be a very cheap solution to running a proper return style system for you guys.






maybe some bad news...it looks like you would at least need to replace the electrical connector to the pump. The outlet location may be the same.





but it looks like the inlet area is totally different. Judge for yourself



Dims:

overall length from top of outlet to inlet 112mm or ~ 11Ccm
38mm diameter

I can get the inlet height if anyone cares.

more pics of the entire basket assembly will be posted up in my ITFP replacement thread later.
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