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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Wheels & Tires HaveMazdaSpeed 3 - Wheels & Tires - Have a question about wheels or tires? Need a calculator to figure out offsets? We have them in here


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 Old 06-16-2009, 09:11 AM   #1
 
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Default Less offset - how bad is the torque steer?

I copied this post from another forum. But it explains my concern for changing the offset of the wheels from stock. I am thinking of going with the RFP1's either 17x8 or 17x9 both have the 45 offset. Most likely 235/40/17 wheels.

So my questions are:

1. I am looking for feed back on how much the torque steer and tramlining is affected with this setup. Was it increased noticibly or not?
2. How much traction is gained by going with the wider wheels?
3. Basically are most people going with the 9" wide wheels for performance or looks or both?



"""All these effects consider going to a more positive scrub radius (i.e. the tire is farther out than normal, like when you put on a smaller than stock offset wheel):

1) Torque steer is increased
2) Track width is increased, allowing for slightly less load transfer in corners
3) Steering weight is increased (may not be noticeable, but the power steering pump will be working harder and the fluid may overheat in some situations)
4) increased tramlining feel on rough or grooved pavement
5) increased wheelbearing wear rate
6) increased steering instability when braking

If for some reason the scrub radius is not identical left to right, the vehicle will pull strongly.

That said, McPhearson Strut style suspensions generally benefit from a small amount of negative scrub because of the relatively high amounts of SAI and caster inherent to these suspensions. Also, negative scrub is frequently employed on FWD cars just for the torquesteer reduction.

There is an issue with having 0 scrub as well. Quoting from an online resource:
"If the scrub is zero, the scrubbing action of the contact patch is equal on either side of the pivot point causing the tire to act like a car with a welded differential, inducing a condition called 'squirm'. In a straight line the tire tends to be stable and tracks well. As you turn though, the portion of the contact patch on the outside of the pivot point moves faster than the portion on the inside of the contact patch. Since the scrubbing area is equal on each side of the pivot point, yet the forces are different, the tire tends to fight itself and it becomes 'grabby' causing tire wear to increase and the steering to become unstable."

So in short, going with less offset than stock will give a very small benefit in terms of load transfer (and thus available cornering grip) but will also yield a myriad number of minor issues as listed above ranging from increased tire wear to stability problems. I have found that the tiny increase in grip is almost never enough to outweigh the speed you find from a confidence-inspiring stable handling car so I always stick with as close to OE offset as possible.

Keep in mind, if you do go with a low-offset wheel and want to maximize your benefit, you should utilize a strut-top camber plate type device to alter the SAI and bring your scrub radius back to stock value. This will prevent the negative effects while giving you the benefit (and also you'll have more negative camber for uber cornering)"""
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 Old 06-16-2009, 10:07 PM   #2
 
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after reading your post i feel like a Re-tard, if my hopes and dreams are all wrong. Lucky for me they arnt.

I think what is missed in this quotation from the other forums, is that with the offsets that people with this car will be running, there is almost no way to have "zero scrub". and with that said, if the offsets are run identical left to right, the wider wheels will not effect torque steer due to with change.

with this said, your choices of RPF1s w/ a 45 offset, will widen the track in a usable fashion that will not lessen handling or torque steer. Those symptoms will benefit from a wider trac and wider tires.

good luck with the new wheels when you get them, and thanks for the interesting read.
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 Old 06-17-2009, 02:07 AM   #3
 
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Trader, if you want 235 tires, 8 inch wheels are optimum, you don't want to have 9 inch ones.

Apart from that, all you quote is quite correct, except the part about 0 scrub being bad, which I don't understand and therefore will not comment.

But the effect for a few millimeters change in offset are minimal and you can't feel them. I have 42 winter wheels compared with the stock 55, and there is no noticeable difference.

So enjoy your new wheels/tires.
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 Old 06-23-2009, 12:41 PM   #4
 
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I beg to differ.

If you are like me and feel small nuances in handling characteristics, you WILL notice the difference.

When I changed from the stock setup to RX-8 wheels and 235 width Kumho XS tires, there was a noticeable increase in both tramlining and torque steer. Was it enough to make me regret it? No, but it was enough to be felt. I don't think I'd want to go much further out offset-wise with an 8" wide wheel and 235s. Now, my winter setup (when I was in IL) was a set of 17x7 et44 Ford Fusion wheels with 215 width tires, and even though the offset was a bit lower, it wasn't quite as noticeable (probably because they were stock-width tires that also lacked a lot of the sidewall stiffness that my current summer setup has, mounted on stock-width wheels).

Now, one thing to be aware of is the fact that the MS3 has a negative scrub radius to begin with, so decreasing the positive offset of the wheels effectively moves you more toward zero scrub radius. How much negative scrub radius we have to begin with (a value I'm unsure of) affects how much you're able to deviate before "flipping" the scrub radius to positive (and therefore opening a can of worms handling-dynamic-wise).

All of this is the reasoning behind why I jumped into all of those wheel spacer threads to put in my $0.02, because I want people to understand the possible negative aspects of putting a badass-looking uber-wide crazy-poking wheel/tire setup on their cars.

If I were you, I'd go with the 17x8s.
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 Old 06-23-2009, 12:46 PM   #5
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thanks for the info in this thread...
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 Old 06-23-2009, 02:12 PM   #6
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That why I'm working so hard to run a 17X8 wheel with a +53 offset.
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 Old 06-23-2009, 07:18 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by dbrier View Post
That why I'm working so hard to run a 17X8 wheel with a +53 offset.
we drive a FWD car...whether you stay with the stock offset or not, you're going to be dealing with torque-steer and all kinds of craziness once you're at speed, so despite that possible detriment of going to the extremes of a low offset, I tend to figure the benefits of the increased grip will more than offset the increased detriment of being quicker with my hands...45+mm in my opinion is ideal for looks and performance...no spacers!
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Offset mai mic - beneficii si probleme - Forum HotHatches This thread Refback 05-30-2014 02:47 AM
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