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 Old 05-30-2017, 12:54 PM   #1
 
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Default Maximizing Grip/Traction vs cost...

Hey guys,

I am still debating on what to do for grip. I've been browsing this and other forums for easily 40-50 hours trying to decide which direction to go. I hate to be redundent, but I haven't found this specific discussion and would like to hear some opinions, or better yet, some real numbers:

1. Do wider tires really improve straight line acceleration on our cars?

This is a huge debate online, and you can find at least 10 different explanations as to why it does or doesn't. Regardless, has anyone run the same tire in both a stock size and an upgraded width and noticed any significant difference in straight line grip?

For example, the Potenza S-04 is available in both the 215/45 and the 245/40 size. Is there a significant difference? (Assuming the wheel is appropriately increased in size as well, 18x7 vs 18x8.5)

Is the cost of $1200-1500 for new wheels worth it if all I care about improving is straight line performance?

Let me clarify. I am perfectly fine with the look of the stock wheels. If I were to buy new wheels, it would ONLY be for the performance improvements. Primarily, the straight line acceleration. Yes, wider tires may help reduce understeer, etc., which is great, but since I'm not racing the car in the foreseeable future, and the car already handles great for spirited DD driving, I mainly want to see improved straight line performance as I add power.

So when I'm ready for new tires, do I just spend the $400-800 on new tires, or do I add in the $1200-1500 wheels to go up to 245/40r18?
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 Old 05-30-2017, 01:50 PM   #2
 
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@MD1032;

You got this.
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 Old 05-30-2017, 02:02 PM   #3
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
Hey guys,

I am still debating on what to do for grip. I've been browsing this and other forums for easily 40-50 hours trying to decide which direction to go. I hate to be redundent, but I haven't found this specific discussion and would like to hear some opinions, or better yet, some real numbers:

1. Do wider tires really improve straight line acceleration on our cars?

This is a huge debate online, and you can find at least 10 different explanations as to why it does or doesn't. Regardless, has anyone run the same tire in both a stock size and an upgraded width and noticed any significant difference in straight line grip?

For example, the Potenza S-04 is available in both the 215/45 and the 245/40 size. Is there a significant difference? (Assuming the wheel is appropriately increased in size as well, 18x7 vs 18x8.5)

Is the cost of $1200-1500 for new wheels worth it if all I care about improving is straight line performance?

Let me clarify. I am perfectly fine with the look of the stock wheels. If I were to buy new wheels, it would ONLY be for the performance improvements. Primarily, the straight line acceleration. Yes, wider tires may help reduce understeer, etc., which is great, but since I'm not racing the car in the foreseeable future, and the car already handles great for spirited DD driving, I mainly want to see improved straight line performance as I add power.

So when I'm ready for new tires, do I just spend the $400-800 on new tires, or do I add in the $1200-1500 wheels to go up to 245/40r18?
First off, I am sorry that you find yourself in the unfortunate position of seeking straight-line grip in a front-wheel-drive macpherson suspension wheel hopping nightmare of a vehicle.

Width will absolutely improve your straight line performance, and I would love to read the supposed "debates" you are apparently reading about this. First you should research what a "contact patch" is. The larger your contact patch is, the more friction your car physically has to transfer power to the road. Personally I would recommend going to a 17" wheel, as 17" tires are cheaper than 18" tires. I would also recommend reducing your front camber to increase your contact patch.

You do not need to spend $1200-1500 on wheels. I bought some cheap 17x9+42 Rotas for about $700 shipped for my Genpu when I had that car and you can go even cheaper...XXR's, ebay wheels.. Personally I would recommend a 17x9.5 or larger, shooting for running a 255 or 265. You will however need to pull/roll the fenders significantly beyond a 9" rim with the Gen1.

You will also need appropriate tires. Street tires are not going to help you. You will want something like a Nitto NT01.
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 Old 05-30-2017, 02:19 PM   #4
 
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Originally Posted by MD1032 View Post
First off, I am sorry that you find yourself in the unfortunate position of seeking straight-line grip in a front-wheel-drive macpherson suspension wheel hopping nightmare of a vehicle.

Width will absolutely improve your straight line performance, and I would love to read the supposed "debates" you are apparently reading about this. First you should research what a "contact patch" is. The larger your contact patch is, the more friction your car physically has to transfer power to the road. Personally I would recommend going to a 17" wheel, as 17" tires are cheaper than 18" tires. I would also recommend reducing your front camber to increase your contact patch.

You do not need to spend $1200-1500 on wheels. I bought some cheap 17x9+42 Rotas for about $700 shipped for my Genpu when I had that car and you can go even cheaper...XXR's, ebay wheels.. Personally I would recommend a 17x9.5 or larger, shooting for running a 255 or 265. You will however need to pull/roll the fenders significantly beyond a 9" rim with the Gen1.

You will also need appropriate tires. Street tires are not going to help you. You will want something like a Nitto NT01.
LOL, love it.

I fully understand this vehicle is NOT designed for straight line performance. But, I would like it to grip better off the line and get as much power to the ground as possible in 1st-3rd.

I do know what a contact patch is, and I've been reading all the debates about how wider tires widen the patch, which makes it shorter front to back, all things being equal. To really increase the surface area of a contact patch, one must have softer compound, lower PSI fill, etc. I haven't formulated my own opinion on this matter. I always believed a wide and short contact patch was better for handling and grip, but there are a lot of variables here.

Here is an example of one such discussion

Originally, I was looking at a 245/45r17 as I thought tires would be noticeably less costly. But after a bunch of comparing, I found it really wasn't that significant, and 245/40r18 has a much larger selection. Plus, I decided I want to keep the smaller sidewalls of the 18s.

I do not have any desire to go wider than 245, and 8.5" wheels seem to be the sweet spot for performance.

As far as the cheaper wheels, that's another topic I've been going back and forth with. If I am to buy new wheels, I'd like them to be light, good quality, and a good well documented fit to our cars. Call me anal, but W/E. Anyways, the Enkei Racing series matches these criteria. I don't care about being unique or standing out from other MS3 owners. I looked at Rotas, Avid.1, and several other "cheap" wheel brands. But I'd rather not, for many reasons. So if I were to replace the wheels, the Enkei seem to be the way to go for good quality light wheels.

As for tire, I'd love to be able to run the NT01, but i'm not running that on the street. This is a DD, and I'm trying to optimize it as a DD. A Potenza S-04, Michelin PSS, or something in that range is likely my best bet. The tire will never see freezing temperatures, but it will see rain.

Again, I have done TONS of research, and I feel the 245/40r18 & Enkei 18x8.5 combo is the best for me. (Haven't decided on exact model or offset yet. (Looking for used, too, so that'll vary it) It will likely require at least a rear fender roll, and possibly spacers depending on the offset. I've been using past info on stickies of various sources to approximate roll/spacer vs wheel width and offset. Even made an excel file to help calculate the options.

So why did I post? I really want specific opinions on wider tires/wheels improving straight line performance. Is it still going to be a tire spinning/hopping pile of ridiculousness? Most likely, but I'd like to make it a bit better!
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 Old 05-30-2017, 02:37 PM   #5
 
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I would love to see someone running 15" in the front with drags, shaved calipers, wheel spacers, fenders rolled and pulled, with the stock back wheels. Possible?


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 Old 05-30-2017, 03:28 PM   #6
 
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If you re getting wider rims thats where you actually getting more with, if you keep it 8.5 thats what pretty much you ll get on low profile tire add an inch give or take over the rim, so if you wanna get "wide" go 17 ×10 if available, so gain a little more tolerance on the fenders and get the 245 tire, you ll see that the same 245 tire will be sitting differently on 10 width than a 8.5. on 35 ratio
And obviously the JBR Trilogy MM kit on the 88 duros will be super helpful on the Hops..other than that is the Whiteline Anti-Lift/Caster Front Control Arm Lower Inner Rear Bushing Mazdaspeed 3 2007-2009 and the significantly more expensive Quaife Limited Slip Differential Mazdaspeed 3 2007-2013..
Get this done and you ll most likely gain the best possible traction on a FWD car

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As a tweak, I did the CS Stage 2 RMM, the Damond PMM and the CS insert in the TMM. I also put the CS rear anti-sway bar on the stiffest setting. Everything else is stock except I put on an inexpensive Drag wheel from Discount Tire with OEM size Pirelli P Zero tires. When I wear these off I will go with the widest tire I can fit on the 18x8.5 wheels that will fit under the fenders.


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 Old 05-31-2017, 09:35 AM   #8
 
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My buddy is a firm believer in Nitto Neogens for hooking pretty hard for a FWD street tire.

The tire pressure written inside your door is calculated based on the weight of your vehicle and the size of your tire to achieve an even tire wear. If you go wider and keep the same pressure, you will end up with the EXACT SAME contact patch AND you will find that the middle of the tread will wear out faster. You need to lower the pressure to even out the weight distribution in the contact patch. This not only balances the tire wear, but also increases the contact patch size...which means more grip.

In regards to the 17's, smaller rims means taller sidewalls. Taller sidewalls are more forgiving and will absorb more shock loading. This in turn will reduce the frequency of wheel spin. Look how tall the sidewalls are on real drag tires. Watch a slowmo replay of top fuel drag tires leaving the line. That sidewall flex is necessary. For a DD, taller sidewalls make for a more comfortable ride because the sidewalls, again, are more forgiving and absorb more of the bumps. Sidewalls have their own "spring rate" if you will.
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post

The tire pressure written inside your door is calculated based on the weight of your vehicle and the size of your tire to achieve an even tire wear. If you go wider and keep the same pressure, you will end up with the EXACT SAME contact patch AND you will find that the middle of the tread will wear out faster. You need to lower the pressure to even out the weight distribution in the contact patch. This not only balances the tire wear, but also increases the contact patch size...which means more grip.
Kinda true, you actually need to look at the load rating compared to stock, and figure out exactly what PSI for that tire equals the same load rating (two sizes different compounds/structures will be different to get the same load). In general yes, you need to lower it, but it's more useful to know how to get to that number than guessing.
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 Old 06-01-2017, 05:06 AM   #10
 
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What in the world did I just read? I forgot about all the 8 second cars that run 225's. Why don't you do some actual research instead of relying on theories bouncing around in your head?

If you won't even consider putting real tires on your car, of any size, you have no chance of hooking up with any significant level of torque. Your quarter mile times will continue to suck. I'm done here.
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 Old 06-01-2017, 08:14 AM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by manu View Post
If you re getting wider rims thats where you actually getting more with, if you keep it 8.5 thats what pretty much you ll get on low profile tire add an inch give or take over the rim, so if you wanna get "wide" go 17 ×10 if available, so gain a little more tolerance on the fenders and get the 245 tire, you ll see that the same 245 tire will be sitting differently on 10 width than a 8.5. on 35 ratio
And obviously the JBR Trilogy MM kit on the 88 duros will be super helpful on the Hops..other than that is the Whiteline Anti-Lift/Caster Front Control Arm Lower Inner Rear Bushing Mazdaspeed 3 2007-2009 and the significantly more expensive Quaife Limited Slip Differential Mazdaspeed 3 2007-2013..
Get this done and you ll most likely gain the best possible traction on a FWD car

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For the wheels, 8.5" will be 1.5" over stock
For the Tires, 245s are approximately 1.2" Wider than stock. Of course, tread width varies from tire to tire.
Widening the tire further on the stock 7" seems like a waste in terms of grip, as the wheel is just not wide enough to utilize the wider rubber. 8.5" seems to be the perfect compromise, as I get more grip without having to modify the fenders too much or having crazy high poke.

Maxing out on JBR mounts would definitely help the hop, but not give me the DD experience I am looking for. I will likely replace PMM & maybe TMM with Damond or CP-E mounts in the future, especially as my stockers wear out.

LSD & Suspension control arms are above and beyond any near future plans. I appreciate the advice in truly maxing grip in this car. However, I am keeping this DD friendly. I'm looking for improvements, but I'm not going to extremes.

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
My buddy is a firm believer in Nitto Neogens for hooking pretty hard for a FWD street tire.

The tire pressure written inside your door is calculated based on the weight of your vehicle and the size of your tire to achieve an even tire wear. If you go wider and keep the same pressure, you will end up with the EXACT SAME contact patch AND you will find that the middle of the tread will wear out faster. You need to lower the pressure to even out the weight distribution in the contact patch. This not only balances the tire wear, but also increases the contact patch size...which means more grip.

In regards to the 17's, smaller rims means taller sidewalls. Taller sidewalls are more forgiving and will absorb more shock loading. This in turn will reduce the frequency of wheel spin. Look how tall the sidewalls are on real drag tires. Watch a slowmo replay of top fuel drag tires leaving the line. That sidewall flex is necessary. For a DD, taller sidewalls make for a more comfortable ride because the sidewalls, again, are more forgiving and absorb more of the bumps. Sidewalls have their own "spring rate" if you will.
Very interesting info! Didn't realize smaller wheels would improve wheel hop, but it makes sense. I was considering 245/45r17s before, which gives about 12% more sidewall. If that helped with hop, it'd be great! Though it may reduce handling due to more flex. Everything is a tradeoff, after all! I will look at slow motion drag videos to check that out.
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Mods Awaitting Install: Redline Leather Center Armrest & Handbrake Boot
Future Mods: Injector Seals | Built Block & BNR S3v2 if ZZB
Removed Mods: JBR 70A RMM | Koni STR.T Orange Shocks

Last edited by Carskick; 06-01-2017 at 08:14 AM. Reason: MSF Database - Automerged Doublepost
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 Old 06-01-2017, 08:23 AM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by MD1032 View Post
What in the world did I just read? I forgot about all the 8 second cars that run 225's. Why don't you do some actual research instead of relying on theories bouncing around in your head?

If you won't even consider putting real tires on your car, of any size, you have no chance of hooking up with any significant level of torque. Your quarter mile times will continue to suck. I'm done here.
Not sure where this came from, but OK.

So If I'm not putting 12" Wheels and drag radials on my car, then shame on me.

I'm trying to make my DD faster and more fun, seeking advice as such. I'm not trying to make an 8 second MS3, which is asinine in it's own right. As you pointed out, it's a FWD wheel hopping mess. But that doesn't mean I want to throw it out and buy a muscle car with 395s on the rear. I'm trying to make my practical Japanese hatch more fun.

I believe that wider tires increase grip, but I've been finding a lot of justifications of how that's now so. Hence why I came here with my questions. If I just went with the "theories bouncing around in my heads", I would have just gone with wider tires give more grip, as it makes more sense to me. All my questions are based on information I've found in various places all over the web. Which, as we know, is all 100% accurate.

So assuming I will NOT be putting R type or drag tires on my car, will wider noticeably help with grip? Should I go 17 vs 18" wheels with the same diameter tire? These are the details I'm trying to figure out. And all of your help is much appreciated!
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 Old 06-01-2017, 08:33 AM   #13
 
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I'm running a 225/40/18 continental extreme contact sport on stock wheels and they hook excellent. With my old falken tires id spin through 2nd and into 3rd the new tires hold even in 2nd with no spin and I'm fbo with freektune on 93


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 Old 06-01-2017, 09:35 AM   #14
 
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OP needs to stop caring, and start racing.
Too many fucks have been given in this thread.
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 Old 06-01-2017, 10:06 AM   #15
 
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Originally Posted by zenit View Post
OP needs to stop caring, and start racing.
Too many fucks have been given in this thread.
LOL. Not sure if you referring to the fact I'm DD'ing my car and not racing it, or the fact that I'm researching my decisions and asking for opinions before a pull any triggers.

Either way, forums are for asking questions and sharing information. No partisipation is required if my goals don't alighn with yours.

Anyways, I did some reaserach the Continental ExtremeCotnact Sports recommended above, and they look like a very good option on the PF01's I was considering if I went 17".

On Tire Rack:
Enkei Racing PF01 17x8.5 +40
Conteinental ExtremeContact Sport 245/45ZR17
Mounted, Balanced & Shipped for under $2,000

No spacers should be required, just a minor fender roll and good to go!

If anyone thinks this is not a good setup for my goals, please let me know. Otherwise I'll pull the trigger around the end of the month.
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 Old 06-01-2017, 10:50 AM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
LOL. Not sure if you referring to the fact I'm DD'ing my car and not racing it, or the fact that I'm researching my decisions and asking for opinions before a pull any triggers.



Either way, forums are for asking questions and sharing information. No partisipation is required if my goals don't alighn with yours.



Anyways, I did some reaserach the Continental ExtremeCotnact Sports recommended above, and they look like a very good option on the PF01's I was considering if I went 17".



On Tire Rack:

Enkei Racing PF01 17x8.5 +40

Conteinental ExtremeContact Sport 245/45ZR17

Mounted, Balanced & Shipped for under $2,000



No spacers should be required, just a minor fender roll and good to go!



If anyone thinks this is not a good setup for my goals, please let me know. Otherwise I'll pull the trigger around the end of the month.


Up to you on swapping wheel size but with those tires you won't need to or go bigger had 2 friends run these on the dragon last month also they did great one had stock wheels the other had 18x8 both with the 225/40/18


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 Old 06-01-2017, 11:19 AM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
Enkei Racing PF01 17x8.5 +40
Conteinental ExtremeContact Sport 245/45ZR17
Mounted, Balanced & Shipped for under $2,000

No spacers should be required, just a minor fender roll and good to go!
You're going to be herra frush. Good chance you'll need more than a "minor roll" in the rear. You're going to poke an extra half inch more than my setup and I'm almost flush.

Also, I will rub if my lowering springs are in, and I have any kind of load in the rear. i.e. Two adults or my tools for a Nator meet.

I daily on CS lowering springs up front, and OEM in the rear. There's enough sidewall to fill in the gap on my 235/45s that the eye can't immediately tell the difference.

I believe you've said previously you have no intentions of lowering your car, but your tire will be sitting underneath the fender. Just know you'll have to be careful with hauling stuff.
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 Old 06-01-2017, 01:04 PM   #18

 
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So much "science" talk, so little science. Friction doesn't care about contact patch one bit. The formula literally has no variable or input for contact area. The reason smaller widths have less grip is because of unit loading across the surface, and/or mechanical adhesion.

Wider (side/side) contact patch gets both adhesion increase (the strength of which is based on area) and reduces unit loading on the rubber.

And gawdamnit OP, don't you see wider tires getting better 60's at the drag strip?
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 Old 06-01-2017, 04:42 PM   #19
 
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We aren't talking about friction, we're talking about grip, which is a function of friction, contact patch, and how much lateral force is applied to said patch.

Friction is a function of the interaction between two materials and the force pushing them together.

To increase friction, your option here is to get softer rubber.
To increase grip beyond increasing friction, your option is to increase contact patch by getting wider tires AND reducing tire pressure by some amount to achieve even tire wear. It was also mentioned previously to reduce your front camber to increase your contact patch. Preferably 0 camber, or close to it, with the wheels straight.
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 Old 06-03-2017, 12:00 PM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
We aren't talking about friction, we're talking about grip, which is a function of friction, contact patch, and how much lateral force is applied to said patch.

Friction is a function of the interaction between two materials and the force pushing them together.

To increase friction, your option here is to get softer rubber.
To increase grip beyond increasing friction, your option is to increase contact patch by getting wider tires AND reducing tire pressure by some amount to achieve even tire wear. It was also mentioned previously to reduce your front camber to increase your contact patch. Preferably 0 camber, or close to it, with the wheels straight.
So this makes the most sense to me. Friction is only part of the equation, which is why I think so many "scientists" think that wider tires don't help. We're after grip, which has far more functions than just friction.

Everyone agrees softer rubber helps, but some people require convincing that wider is better. Widening and reducing tire pressure, and having a fairly neutral camber seems like it would provide the largest contact patch. And from what I understand, a wider contact patch of the same area dissipates heat better, and I would think is better for forward grip.

Going to 17" wheels that have more flex in the sidewalls to help with wheel hop. It may hinder handling slightly, but I don't think it will be much...
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