LSD Swap out

[justint5387]

Originally Posted by Tomas How about noise and slow speed engagement when locking steering to either side?

No noise at low speed at all, it makes less noise than stock. I used Motul Gear 300 and the tranny shifts better than when I was running MT-90 on stock LSD.

[mrdouble99]

i want to do this so much, since i have destroy my transmission with the oem lsd.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

I got a list of things we need to move forward with this differential. All parties are willing to work together at this point but I need to collect the parts so I can ship them and coordinate this effort.

[Tomas]

I took the liberty of calling wavetrack to find out a minimum production quantity to get it developed. The answer was 30 to 40 units. I am in - although I highly doubt we'll get commitments for that many units.

Good luck.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Correct but right now we are looking at the possibility of modifying existing wavetrac diffs to work with the MS3 components.

[Rokusek]

sub'd

good work meng

[Nataphen]

Subbed for the WaveTrac LSD status. I was actually just PMing Tomas about a WT, and then I read a little further down and saw that it has already been discussed. Everyone with FWD at the road race shop that I worked at seemed to prefer the WT over the Quaife or any other LSD, so I would love to see where we could go with this. What kind of price are we looking at? $800-$1000 is what most of them run.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Retail would be around 1295.00 per Wavetrac

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Here is what is needed:
OEM diff
OEM ring gear
OEM ring gear bolt(s)
OEM diff bearing
OEM axle end/stub axle

[Nataphen]

Someone needs to send that to them? Not sure that I understand.

[Tomas]

I can send all of those components. I have a spare gear box.
But I would really like some assurance that they will actually make it before I send that all out. Like I said, they will only make it if there is interest from at least 30-40 people and I am highly doubtful many people will buy one.

[Nataphen]

I'd buy one if I ever had to open up the trans, but I'm afraid that would be the only time.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Originally Posted by Tomas I can send all of those components. I have a spare gear box. But I would really like some assurance that they will actually make it before I send that all out. Like I said, they will only make it if there is interest from at least 30-40 people and I am highly doubtful many people will buy one.

Like I stated before they are looking for 25 to produce and I told them I will not front that kind of cash because I myself know I wont sell those in less than 5 years. However they did what the parts sent to them to see if they could modify an existing diff on the shelf to suite the MS3. SO its entirely up to you if your game or not. I dont have spare speed3 parts unfortunately.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Tech/Sales@EM Here is what is needed: OEM diff OEM ring gear OEM ring gear bolt(s) OEM diff bearing OEM axle end/stub axle

Ok, took the spare gear box apart today.
Got all components ready to ship except OEM axle end/stud axle - the hell is that? is it pictured in the first post?

[Tech/Sales@EM]

I believe they are asking for the following.

OEM Axleshaft/Driveshaft
OEM Transmission flange

However this car does not use flanges as the axle is female splined ends. Let me check with them tomorrow to confirm.

Thanks bud,

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Axle and intermediary shaft from the diff to the axle inner joint

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Tech/Sales@EM Axle and intermediary shaft from the diff to the axle inner joint

Do you mean the complete axle assembly from the gear box to the knuckle on the passenger side?
Sorry but I don't have that as a spare.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Yeah neither do I. Sold it earlier in 2011

[Tomas]

Wellp.
Guess we'll put this on hold till someone can volunteer one.
Why only the passenger side?

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Any side it doesn't matter. They just need one that connects to the differential

[06Speed6]

This write up is saving my ass, I am tearing into my trans right now.

The gear shift sensors and the nut between them are 27mm. Make sure you have a 27mm wrench to get those bitches off.

[Tomas]

^ adjustable wrench?

[06Speed6]

Yeah thats what I ended up doing, sears doesnt carry 27mm wrenches.

There are also 6 bolts in the bell housing, the 6th is under the fork. I snapped lotsa pics so I may add to this thread.

[Tomas]

Zee OS Gicken is installed.
Combined with a Spec 3+ clutch.

Surprisingly it runs very smooth. Still breaking in clutch. Going to track in 2 weeks. Will post more after that.

[Ziggo]

What about the quaife did you not like?


Zigatapatalka

[Tomas]

I like the quafe. Just wanted to try the OS gicken.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by Tomas I like the quafe. Just wanted to try the OS gicken.

Indecisive as a teenage virgin indeed.

[Neverlift]

OS Chicken? Giken.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Tomas I like the quafe. Just wanted to try the OS gicken.

Do you like it more? Or less? Or the same?

[Lex]

Interested in the difference between the OS and Quaife and OEM as well. This is something to consider when changing the clutch.

What is the expected lifetime of the stock clutch pack LSD anyways?

[Ziggo]

Stock LSD is geared, not clutch type


Zigatapatalka

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Stock LSD is geared, not clutch type Zigatapatalka

Do you have any further info on this?

[Tomas]

Ok, comparing LSD's.

The quaife is smoother engaging than stock and the OS gicken. It also grabs more on corner exit than stock but it's not a huge difference. I'd say about 20%. The OS Gicken grabs about 40% more than stock. It really does grab more than the quaife and a lot more than stock. It's a great unit for track work. Only detriment is that it is not as smooth as the quaife when starting with the wheel locked all the way in any one direction but it is actually smoother than stock. It will make the inner wheel squeal a little sometimes but it's not that bad.

On the clutch type LSDs it gets a little confusing.

Both the OS Gicken and GKN LSD's can be called clutch based. Both cone clutch type and clutch pack type LSDs have a mechanism of gears to transfer torque to the wheels that consists of 2 side gears and 2 spider gears. Also called sun and planet gear or pinion gears/ carrier. On the cone clutch type LSD the side gears are called cone gears. More on that in a second. The OS Gicken uses spring loaded clutch plates to transfer torque between axles. The GKN (stock) lsd uses cone shaped back sides on the side gears. The back side of these side gears slide on a taper ring which sits against the housing in open mode and will clamp against the tapper ring/housing the higher the torque input. In the case of the GKN lsd the side gears are also spring loaded against each other to mantain a certain amount of preload. The advantage of this is that if one wheel is in the air you will not unlock the other wheel completely as happens with the quaife, or helical gear LSDs. That wavetrac LSD shown in the previous page has a neat mechanism that eliminates this small inconvenience of the quaife. Their web site explains how it works.

This is the OS Gicken super lock LSD. Notice the springs inside the lock timing mechanism and the stack of clutch plates. It also has spider gears inside the lock timing system which engage against the side gears. The side gears are splined on their circumference and the clutch plates that slide on them are grooved on the inside to the same profile.



In the cone clutch GKN lsd you can see the spring for preload, and that the angled back side of the side gears is grooved. The angled back side of these side gears, or cone gears, act as clutch against the tapper ring that sits against the housing.

[Ziggo]

So stock is a cone clutch type? I thought I had heard in multiple places we had a geared LSD. Its why we can get away with running the MT-90/Ford QT transmission oil without a friction modifier.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Ziggo So stock is a cone clutch type? I thought I had heard in multiple places we had a geared LSD. Its why we can get away with running the MT-90/Ford QT transmission oil without a friction modifier.

I've had mt90 in my transmission for 80k, so I hope I've been running the right shit lol. No problems with my trans.

[fredricktsang]

hasn't someone taken apart the stock lsd to find out? Now I'm worried haha, on gkn's website it does say that it's compatible with atf and gear oils...

[Tomas]

I am pretty sure this is what we have.
Clutches are the back sides of the side gears (cones) that clamp onto the tapper ring which sits against the tapered face of the housing.

Super_LSD.pdf

[justint5387]

Yup, not a gear type. It's a cone style clutch diff

[Lex]

Great information Tomas

What kind of life should we expect from one of these stock LSDs? I assume as those cone gears become smooth they will grab less and less.

This is why I have a preference for gear based LSDs.

[Tomas]

Just today I read the first thread of an LSD seemingly giving out. Diagnosis is not conclusive yet but it looks like the cones are done. It's one of the edge autosport MS3 doods.

I think the stock LSDs will last pretty long though. Of course all depends how you use it. If you go to the drag strip every other week end and do burn outs they might obviously not last that long. lol.