JMF gtx3071 dyno... confusing results

[magicka]

Originally Posted by Voltwings on a side note here, does anyone have pics of where the JMF manifold has the Methanol bungs installed? i cant seem to find a pic, @rfinkle2; yours has the bungs right? Thanks.

Stolen from post 181 in the JMF thread.
@MarineMazda;

Also post 191
@khopwood77;

[Voltwings]

Ahh thanks, had been following it originally but i guess those got away from me.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Voltwings on a side note here, does anyone have pics of where the JMF manifold has the Methanol bungs installed? i cant seem to find a pic, @rfinkle2; yours has the bungs right? Thanks.

Photo courtesy of Marinemazda:

[Chimmike]

I don't know if this has been brought up, but have there been any tests with motors who've had mild head porting? We already know stock IM can outflow the stock head, but what about hogging out those exhaust ports (arguably the most severe restriction in the whole system)?

[superskaterxes]

i have mild head porting on the intake side but nothing on the exhaust side fyi

[Celestspeed3]

@MarineMazda; should be tuning his car next weekend. I'd say just it back, relax and wait for the results.

I think his motor has more done to it then Anthony's. All our motor are basically the same so here's what's done to Dan's motor just so everyone knows what they are comparing too.

Full head PNP intake and exhaust
Ceramic coated surfaces (full combustion chamber, piston tops, exhaust ports)
Stock valves with bronze guides
K1 rods
Magnum pistons

The only thing that "may" be a flow restriction is the Steedspeed top mount manifold, with divided T3 flange. But I don't think anyone has pushed this turbo setup on something like this before.

[superskaterxes]

what turbo is he running. and whats he doing for fuel?

[SilverDemon]

OHHH MY GOD!! how does anybody think that port meth injection will work!!!! Talk about fuel pooling and wall wetting!! Jesus, what the fuck are we thinking?!!


Warning....Warning!!!

The previous statement was born completely out of sarcasm and should not be taken serious, unless you believe that batch fire port injection with the injectors aimed directly at the back of the valves will cause problems.

This concludes the emergency broadcast fuel pooling message, If this had been an actual fuel pooling emergency there would have been instructions on how to do it correctly.

[mituc]

Originally Posted by Ziggo This is really confusing to me. Unless the plenum is simply too big for the motor I can't see why power would drop and it certainly does not seem like the plenum is too large. Air velocity is dependent only on the displacement and volumetric efficiency of the motor. Boost increases do not impact the velocity.

Ok, so I've been through the entire thread in the last hours or so, all 5 pages of it.
I've seen you guys talking about boost, air velocity and stuff. But none of you considered the air flow resistance when it comes to such a roughly shaped air duct as these manifolds are. You may get a pretty good amount of the actual boost from the air banging around the IM creating pressure fronts everywhere.
That is the reason why in the link presented at post #13 of this thread the BUSCHUR RACING guys noticed fairly different results with apparently similar IM's (and roughly the same volume) that they've tested.

Personally I'd opt for an OEM like shaped IM. Or, why not, for a ported OEM. Given the engine displacement, from a certain IM volume UP you may only notice additional lag when the turbo starts filling that volume, and not actual air flow. At a specific boost value the air quantity entering the intake ports will be constant no matter what is the volume of the IM (Bernoulli said).

[06Speed6]

On the testing, total or max flow isnt really testable in the real world. You have to do back to back runs in cars with very comparable flow mods and test maf/v vs boost pressure. This upgrade doesnt directly add any power, it just makes it easier to make power so its really an efficiency mod. So a successful test for the jmf IM would be additional maf/v at the same boost pressure or identical maf/v at a lower boost pressure.

Boost is almost worthless as a indicator of power, mass air will get us way closer to something concrete.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 On the testing, total or max flow isnt really testable in the real world. You have to do back to back runs in cars with very comparable flow mods and test maf/v vs boost pressure. This upgrade doesnt directly add any power, it just makes it easier to make power so its really an efficiency mod. So a successful test for the jmf IM would be additional maf/v at the same boost pressure or identical maf/v at a lower boost pressure. Boost is almost worthless as a indicator of power, mass air will get us way closer to something concrete.

There is data that does not support that theory. Hurt engine or not on Anthony's car, more power was still being made on the same boost pressure but less maf/v when the manifolds were swapped.

I am not sure what conclusive testing could be done to prove it one way or another.

[rfinkle2]

This manifold is becoming as debated as catch can set-ups.

[06Speed6]

Yeah I saw that on Anthonys car, and it doesnt add up. Regardless of parts, I dont believe that you can get more power with less air on the same tune. Plus it didnt show that consistently enough for me, unless there are logs that I missed.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes what turbo is he running. and whats he doing for fuel?

GT3076 /w .82 hotside.

Meth for now. We would need race gas as octane booster since we don't have easy access to E85.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon OHHH MY GOD!! how does anybody think that port meth injection will work!!!! Talk about fuel pooling and wall wetting!! Jesus, what the fuck are we thinking?!! Warning....Warning!!! The previous statement was born completely out of sarcasm and should not be taken serious, unless you believe that batch fire port injection with the injectors aimed directly at the back of the valves will cause problems. This concludes the emergency broadcast fuel pooling message, If this had been an actual fuel pooling emergency there would have been instructions on how to do it correctly.

Lol @ the pooling theory...

I'll tell you guys how much suction just the intake side of these engines have... Phillyb's car sucked several pizza bones in its turbo inlet effortlessly.... One can only imagine the velocity at the runner with the meth nozzle

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Yeah I saw that on Anthonys car, and it doesnt add up. Regardless of parts, I dont believe that you can get more power with less air on the same tune. Plus it didnt show that consistently enough for me, unless there are logs that I missed.

Air velocity could be slower in the JMF, that could be the reason for the reduction in torque, and the lower maf/v. It is the difference between blowing through a straw or a card board tube. In the case of the oem manifold 8 smaller straws vs 4 large tubes in the JMF mani. Just some thoughts since I really have no hard data on velocity through either of the manis.

[MarineMazda]

Well now the the Cat is out of the Bag on my build. Ill post this teaser pic before the Dyno results.



This Manifold Cleans the engine bay up so much it is unbelievable, I was in the middle of mocking up the hot pipe from the turbo when this was taken.

Also @Celestspeed3 completed his first wire tuck on the car

[SilverDemon]

Holy shit dude!!! You need a build thread all your own (unless you already have one). That is a damn sexy ass build you have going on

[atvfreek]

Seriously! That engine bay is pure MZR porn. Good shit man!

[Celestspeed3]

2013 is the year of Canadian Builds. LoL

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by MarineMazda Well now the the Cat is out of the Bag on my build. Ill post this teaser pic before the Dyno results.

It was a bitch tightening the center bolt on the manifold 1/8th of a turn at a time on that work of art. Would've been worse if @MarineMazda; wasn't rubbing my inner thigh for encouragement.

"Dave, do you wanna sleep over? I'll tell Kat to take the guest room..."

@Celestspeed3; actually slept over so who knows what happened.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak It was a bitch tightening the center bolt on the manifold 1/8th of a turn at a time on that work of art. Would've been worse if @MarineMazda; wasn't rubbing my inner thigh for encouragement. "Dave, do you wanna sleep over? I'll tell Kat to take the guest room..."

Here is my weapon of choice when it comes to tightening that center bolt....but don't get me wrong, I would gladly let a smooth talking Canadian whisper sweet nothings in my ear and rub my thigh while I turn a wrench.....

[Ziggo]

Poking around today and decided to take a couple old logs and give the concept of using calculated VE to evaluate parts.

Now I don't know that these numbers are correct in an absolute sense, they could be impacted by the MAFcal or any number of things. These logs were taken on the same day, but the boot temperature was different by 20*F. What is important is that, other than some weirdness caused by the logging rate/errors of the old AP(several lines with identical RPM), they are pretty consistent so we should be able to see the change from swapping parts if they have a significant impact.

[Voltwings]

Bump* updates?

[djuosnteisn]

I heard through Chris he burned a hole in one of his exhaust valves. Said motor never had KR and AFRs were always mid 11's... so i dunno. Perhaps fifth port and JMF don't play nicely together? I only saw a couple cell phone pics of a few things, but he had two different shops (the dealer and an aftermarket shop) confirm the failure.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Perhaps fifth port and JMF don't play nicely together?.

What would make any difference between the factory mani performing differently then the jmf when it comes to the fifth port injection?

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I heard through Chris he burned a hole in one of his exhaust valves. Said motor never had KR and AFRs were always mid 11's... so i dunno. Perhaps fifth port and JMF don't play nicely together? I only saw a couple cell phone pics of a few things, but he had two different shops (the dealer and an aftermarket shop) confirm the failure.

Was head work ever done? If the valve doesn't seat properly, it won't be able to transfer enough heat into the head and it WILL be destroyed quickly. I would be inclined to say that the manifold is the LAST place you should be looking for the cause of an exhaust valve failure. JMF's manifold has been proven to have much better flow balance between the runners and that's really the only part of an intake manifold that would cause a particular cylinder to have different running conditions than the others. Did he have any way to monitor EGTs?

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I heard through Chris he burned a hole in one of his exhaust valves. Said motor never had KR and AFRs were always mid 11's... so i dunno. Perhaps fifth port and JMF don't play nicely together? I only saw a couple cell phone pics of a few things, but he had two different shops (the dealer and an aftermarket shop) confirm the failure.

And i assume Chris was the guy who dyno'd in this thread? Is it confirmed that the valve was burned at that time and caused the loss of power? Thanks.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I heard through Chris he burned a hole in one of his exhaust valves. Said motor never had KR and AFRs were always mid 11's... so i dunno. Perhaps fifth port and JMF don't play nicely together? I only saw a couple cell phone pics of a few things, but he had two different shops (the dealer and an aftermarket shop) confirm the failure.

i thought he slipped timing?

[Realgib3]

Yeah low power, a burnt up valve/egts through the roof would definitely indicate a timing issue.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon What would make any difference between the factory mani performing differently then the jmf when it comes to the fifth port injection?

No clue. Maybe the t-body turn up pipe or something? I dunno. But there's a big difference between a wet manifold and a dry manifold, or at least i'd assume. One of the benefits of fifth port (at least as i understood) was that it will flow with the air for the most part. So if one cylinder is favored more than another in terms of airflow, at least it'll receive a higher percentage of fifth port fuel.

At this point though, two motors have run both the JMF and fifth port, and 100% of them have blow up. Unless i'm missing anyone... I don't think Dante has his installed yet, does he?

Originally Posted by sidekick Was head work ever done? If the valve doesn't seat properly, it won't be able to transfer enough heat into the head and it WILL be destroyed quickly. I would be inclined to say that the manifold is the LAST place you should be looking for the cause of an exhaust valve failure. JMF's manifold has been proven to have much better flow balance between the runners and that's really the only part of an intake manifold that would cause a particular cylinder to have different running conditions than the others. Did he have any way to monitor EGTs?

No clue on whether or not it had head work. And i agree, the JMF flow test showed only like 10% variation IIRC, or around there. That's why i'm starting to wonder if it's a fuel flow issue.

Originally Posted by Voltwings And i assume Chris was the guy who dyno'd in this thread? Is it confirmed that the valve was burned at that time and caused the loss of power? Thanks.

Na, Chris is BCMurphy the OP. The owner isn't active on the forums. And the car was running fine with stock manifold. These issues started after the JMF was installed, at least that's how i understand it. I never heard of any issues at all before allt his occurred.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes i thought he slipped timing?

I guess those marks on the piston were from a previous issue, where timing did slip. The people who tore the motor down this time verified timing was correct before tearing down.


I don't have all the facts on this situation. My involvement and information is limited.

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Yeah low power, a burnt up valve/egts through the roof would definitely indicate a timing issue.

Actually, a burnt up valve would more likely coincide with lower EGTs. The more you advance spark, the cooler the EGTs will be, and the more heat the combustion chamber will have to deal with (aka, dissipate into the coolant jacket).

With that said, i sincerely don't believe his spark advance was so aggressive that it caused any of these issues. But it's a good point and something that shouldn't be overlooked.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn No clue. Maybe the t-body turn up pipe or something? I dunno. But there's a big difference between a wet manifold and a dry manifold, or at least i'd assume. One of the benefits of fifth port (at least as i understood) was that it will flow with the air for the most part. So if one cylinder is favored more than another in terms of airflow, at least it'll receive a higher percentage of fifth port fuel. At this point though, two motors have run both the JMF and fifth port, and 100% of them have blow up. Unless i'm missing anyone... I don't think Dante has his installed yet, does he? No clue on whether or not it had head work. And i agree, the JMF flow test showed only like 10% variation IIRC, or around there. That's why i'm starting to wonder if it's a fuel flow issue. Na, Chris is BCMurphy the OP. The owner isn't active on the forums. And the car was running fine with stock manifold. These issues started after the JMF was installed, at least that's how i understand it. I never heard of any issues at all before allt his occurred. I guess those marks on the piston were from a previous issue, where timing did slip. The people who tore the motor down this time verified timing was correct before tearing down. I don't have all the facts on this situation. My involvement and information is limited. Actually, a burnt up valve would more likely coincide with lower EGTs. The more you advance spark, the cooler the EGTs will be, and the more heat the combustion chamber will have to deal with (aka, dissipate into the coolant jacket). With that said, i sincerely don't believe his spark advance was so aggressive that it caused any of these issues. But it's a good point and something that shouldn't be overlooked.

for the record my motor diddent blow up, i lifted my head just like the other 5+ people making the same amount of power as me did.


and over advanced spark only decreases EGT's till u hit MBT. after that EGT's will sky rocket.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Dunno. But there's a big difference between a wet manifold and a dry manifold, or at least i'd assume.

I'm assuming the difference is "dry" flows no fuel and "wet" has fuel from 5th port? Would a normal PI manifold count as "wet" since the fuel flows through it, or is it more indicitive of the plenum? Just want to make sure I'm on the same page when all you guys start discussing this.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn At this point though, two motors have run both the JMF and fifth port, and 100% of them have blow up. Unless i'm missing anyone... I don't think Dante has his installed yet, does he? With that said, i sincerely don't believe his spark advance was so aggressive that it caused any of these issues. But it's a good point and something that shouldn't be overlooked.

^^ Can we confirm both cars have blown up from the same issue, and were both cars stock motor? popping a stock block with a BT isnt exactly hard to do.

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by Voltwings I'm assuming the difference is "dry" flows no fuel and "wet" has fuel from 5th port? Would a normal PI manifold count as "wet" since the fuel flows through it, or is it more indicitive of the plenum? Just want to make sure I'm on the same page when all you guys start discussing this.

That is a different setup.

The injectors in a PI manifold/ECU are placed just before the head runners. The mass of air that enters each runner does not affect the mass of fuel that enters as well.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn No clue. Maybe the t-body turn up pipe or something? I dunno. But there's a big difference between a wet manifold and a dry manifold, or at least i'd assume. One of the benefits of fifth port (at least as i understood) was that it will flow with the air for the most part. So if one cylinder is favored more than another in terms of airflow, at least it'll receive a higher percentage of fifth port fuel.

So.....less than 8% is far worse than 23% in terms of flow differential when it comes to fuel distribution from the fifth port?

The OEM manifold is a dry manifold from the beginning, bet yet people have been running multiple meth nozzles and your fifth port with out issue.

From what I understand about this situation is that the car was dynoed approx. 3 months before the JMF manifold was installed. The manifold (JMF) was installed and then re-dynoed at a lower hp. Now it comes to light that the engine from said vehicle had major issues, more than likely long before the manifold was installed. What I have heard is that the engine slipped time, burnt or cracked a valve. Either of which is not caused from any intake manifold.

Please leave your insinuations to your self.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes and over advanced spark only decreases EGT's till u hit MBT. after that EGT's will sky rocket.

Read the below quote:

The other technique is a little more subtle but usable if attention is paid to EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature). Detonation will actually cause EGTs to drop. This behavior has fooled a lot of people because they will watch the EGT and think that it is in a low enough range to be safe, the only reason it is low is because the engine is detonating.

From: Engine Basics: Detonation and Pre-Ignition by Allen W. Cline

Spark advance beyond MBT, and even detonation, will force more of the heat energy from the combustion into the combustion chamber itself, and less out the exhaust. Even though peak combustion chamber temperatures are higher, more of that thermal energy is absorbed than exhausted.

[dantes5823]

@djuosnteisn; my jmf has been installed since the week it came out.

Sooooo pppuurrttyyyy

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Voltwings I'm assuming the difference is "dry" flows no fuel and "wet" has fuel from 5th port? Would a normal PI manifold count as "wet" since the fuel flows through it, or is it more indicitive of the plenum? Just want to make sure I'm on the same page when all you guys start discussing this.

Wet manifolds are those that are intended for an air/fuel mix to flow through them, like that on a carbureted vehicle. Dry means just air, no fuel, flows through the IM.

Originally Posted by SilverDemon So.....less than 8% is far worse than 23% in terms of flow differential when it comes to fuel distribution from the fifth port? The OEM manifold is a dry manifold from the beginning, bet yet people have been running multiple meth nozzles and your fifth port with out issue. From what I understand about this situation is that the car was dynoed approx. 3 months before the JMF manifold was installed. The manifold (JMF) was installed and then re-dynoed at a lower hp. Now it comes to light that the engine from said vehicle had major issues, more than likely long before the manifold was installed. What I have heard is that the engine slipped time, burnt or cracked a valve. Either of which is not caused from any intake manifold. Please leave your insinuations to your self.

Easy Scott. I hate how defensive you get about this shit. God forbid i try to discuss something that could be a valid concern.

And your comments in red make me kinda laugh... considering Anthony's motor fits that description just as well. Yet Anthony's was still good enough to be the poster child of why everyone should have this manifold... right?


I'm not attacking the manifold. I'm not attacking your family. I'm not attacking you, or your design, or you time and energy invested, or JMF, or any of that goddamn shit.

I'm simply trying to discuss something that could become an issue. Somebody asked for an update, and i gave him one. Said the motor burned up a valve. The guys car ran great on the stock manifold for several months, at a damn respectable power level (high 400's on only a 71mm compressor wheel). He won the Street Unit dyno competition, and i never heard a peep from him. One thing changes, and all the sudden a valve melts.

If trying to flow fuel through the manifold is the cause of the problem, it's something that should be noted so nobody else makes the same mistake. That's the whole purpose of this discussion.... whether or not that could be the problem.

Originally Posted by dantes5823 @djuosnteisn; my jmf has been installed since the week it came out. Sooooo pppuurrttyyyy

This. This is an awesome addition to the conversation.

Your car has been running great for the past several weeks. How much boost have you been running? And how high have you dialed up the fifth port? Are you still running Gerry's R4 map?

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn At this point though, two motors have run both the JMF and fifth port, and 100% of them have blow up. Unless i'm missing anyone...

This is what I am not suppose to take offense at? Am I missing someone that is running the 5th port and the JMF mani that has not blown up?

[dantes5823]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn This. This is an awesome addition to the conversation. Your car has been running great for the past several weeks. How much boost have you been running? And how high have you dialed up the fifth port? Are you still running Gerry's R4 map?

She's been running great really. Hit the dyno once like a few weeks back and only made 434whp and same torque. Vd was just a bit shy of that as well. Swapped to a tr10 and htp 4" intake and vd seems to love it. My head must hate me lol.

And yup, since install we uploaded gerry's map on the controller and its never been opened up again. And boost has been a bit up and down. When i dyno'd i was at 30psi. Power gains from 26 were garbage. So up until like 2 weeks ago i was at like 24 psi so. As of late ive been running 27. For some reason my boost likes to upward taper on an mbc. Spools to 25 and climbs to 27 at mid range and holds till redline.

As far as timing goes since i know someones bound to ask is 17 at redline. I have 0 kr at that boost level on just 93. I pump eth when i feel like being froggy or when i think im gonna dyno( will dyno this week because free power pulls).