ECU Load cap shattered!

[fjames]

Originally Posted by manelscout4life by any chance could the factor determining whether or not the load is being clipped have anything to do with some cars being cali spec? I want to go out rite now and see if I am getting load above 200 but the snow right now wont allow that.

Good question to start a discussion. I 'd like to know why some do and some don't, and why it seems to always be 195. I see 197 on my DH sometimes, and I assume it's the same unit as the 195 that people log with their APs and whatever else.

Everyone stock turbo needs to remember that the cold weather is causing a lot of this. Once it warms up, not so much of a problem, at least for some.

[GoSpeed3Go]

maybe we wont see anymore fuk my car threads for awhile now.

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Glad this worked

Yeah dude. Lots of folks have worked on this and provided inputs/data, but I call you out as the "Master" at getting to the bottom of this issue! I'm sure there's more to come as well! Thanks!!!

[Dano]

yes he is! i'm sure Christian will be contacting him soon hahahah

Thanks DJ!

[Realgib3]

Ok, so as I was reading through this thread, started to get a little worried, because I think those who want to use this solution should really work to understand why they should use it.

I can't force anyone to do their homework, but every questioned posed in this thread thus far has already been answered many times. I'm not knocking anyone for asking questions, and I will, as I always have, continue to answer as many questions as I possibly can when I see them posted.

With that said, I feel pretty strongly that this thread should be used to fine tune, and advance a concept that has already been developed and proven effective, through a lot of hard work, and not to question WHY we are doing it in the first place. That has already been answered in 100 different ways.

This is why I vote to make it a pre-requisite for posting in this thread, to do your research, see where we started and why, and to truly understand this fix.

Below are the main threads that really brought this all to fruition.
The amount of knowledge inside is really unbelievable.

The first thread is DJ's and was really the basis for us to begin investigating this issue in the first place.
Car was acting a fool...

I started this next thread to explain another concept to people, which is also a good read, but from mid page 3 on, it starts to really get into the load clipping issue, and is what brought about our most recent thread.
Full Control of Load in Each Gear???

Finally, I started this thread to show how my car was affected by the first experiments on our MAF/ fuel scaling. This test was originally proposed by DJ, and the logs that followed proved everything we had been speculating about, and are THE reason that we have reached this incredible new solution.
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...cs-wtfs-48313/

Originally Posted by Frequentflyer Can't believe I'm hitting 200+ with my mods, but it has been cold here so that could be the factor. My AFR's seem like they're OK though, so I don't think I'll mess with this breakthrough quite yet.

EDIT: THE STATEMENT BELOW NEEDED TO BE IN BOLD
What everyone needs to realize is that you can hit the clipping point no matter what your mods are. I am 100% stock, and the load clipping held me back a LOT.

Since the calc. load is just that, a Calculation, you could hit the clipping point a 2psi if you scaled the MAF up enough. It's all in the way the ecu sees your load, not your mods or the amount of power you are putting down.

As far as your AFR's not being dramatically affected, it is most likely that you are not overshooting the clipping point by much, so the throttle closing up is doing a descent job of keeping AFR's in line. Other's, that were WAY past the clipping point are the ones who saw the most dramatic AFR action. Also, it is good for everyone to know that RAISING your MAF tables is what brings this clipping phenomenon out in the first place.

Raise MAF tables to combat lean AFR @ wot, MAF curve goes up, so calc load goes up, so you hit the clipping point at lower and lower actual load/ boost levels.

Originally Posted by dread What is the load cap. My calculated load goes over 200 frequently and I am only stage 1+. I assume this is only worth it for people that are more heavily modified. There are definately tables that we don't have access to. I hope cobb opens them up soon. Congrats on the work around though, I hope the dyno demonstrates their effectiveness.

As far as this not being worth it for those that are not heavily modified... It is WELL worth it.
Again, I am 100% stock and seeing great things, and I am working on getting dyno'd. I'm within 5 min of one place, but it's not really where I'd like to go so we'll see how it all works out.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Ok, so as I was reading through this thread, started to get a little worried, because I think those who want to use this solution should really work to understand why they should use it. I can't force anyone to do their homework, but every questioned posed in this thread thus far has already been answered many times. I'm not knocking anyone for asking questions, and I will, as I always have, continue to answer as many questions as I possibly can when I see them posted. With that said, I feel pretty strongly that this thread should be used to fine tune, and advance a concept that has already been developed and proven effective, through a lot of hard work, and not to question WHY we are doing it in the first place. That has already been answered in 100 different ways. This is why I vote to make it a pre-requisite for posting in this thread, to do your research, see where we started and why, and to truly understand this fix. Below are the main threads that really brought this all to fruition. The amount of knowledge inside is really unbelievable. The first thread is DJ's and was really the basis for us to begin investigating this issue in the first place. Car was acting a fool... I started this next thread to explain another concept to people, which is also a good read, but from mid page 3 on, it starts to really get into the load clipping issue, and is what brought about our most recent thread. Full Control of Load in Each Gear??? Finally, I started this thread to show how my car was affected by the first experiments on our MAF/ fuel scaling. This test was originally proposed by DJ, and the logs that followed proved everything we had been speculating about, and are THE reason that we have reached this incredible new solution. http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...cs-wtfs-48313/ What everyone needs to realize is that you can hit the clipping point no matter what your mods are. I am 100% stock, and the load clipping held me back a LOT. Since the calc. load is just that, a Calculation, you could hit the clipping point a 2psi if you scaled the MAF up enough. It's all in the way the ecu sees your load, not your mods or the amount of power you are putting down.

Very nicely stated and explained. Thanks for putting the brakes on all the extraneous questions AND providing a link to the threads that provide much needed background before implementing this calibration.

If you have specific questions on implementing this calibration this IS the place to post them. If you are just fishing around, RGs links are the place to start.

You’re a true asset to the forum RG!

[Smoker6]

Thanks for the links. This snuck up on me because I ignored a thread titled "MAF's, AFR's, LOAD CALC's, and WTF's??? " figuring it was just more "omg my car fails" bullshit.

I had been seeing these issues with my load as well (maxing at a bit over 200) so it makes sense. Can't wait to try it out and see what my gt28 can do.

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 Thanks for the links. This snuck up on me because I ignored a thread titled "MAF's, AFR's, LOAD CALC's, and WTF's??? " figuring it was just more "omg my car fails" bullshit. I had been seeing these issues with my load as well (maxing at a bit over 200) so it makes sense. Can't wait to try it out and see what my gt28 can do.

YES!!! We are dying to get a big turbo tester!!! This is where we will know for sure how BIG of a deal this discovery is...

And if anyone feels like IDK...throwing me a big turbo for a good price... I mean I'd be MORE than happy to test!!!

[djuosnteisn]

Hahaha.

Just my opinion, but i don't think this trick will necessarily unlock any power alone. But what i will do is provide the ability to tune for more power reliably and consistently.

Time will tell though!

[Dano]

Ok DJ time for more fuel....Hahahaha

the demand for your ckts is about to go up LOL!

[AFcadet]

So I just wanted to report back that my initial testing is looking quiet successful.

Just as a recap...this is what I did this morning to my map...

I brought my MAF down 5% at 3.67volts and above
brought my fuel down by 7% in all OL tables (just to be safe for the first flash)
brought my TRLx down by 10% (just to be safe for first flash)
Changed the CL Max Load to 1.1 for every table
Changed the CL Max Throttle to 100 for every table
Bumped the OL Ign Tables up 3 rows
Bumped the VVT Tables up 3 rows

Before...I had the same issue with fueling...where I would sometimes get wierd lean spikes...and my OL fueling tables would be from 10.5 tapering up to 11.3 just to hold a flat 11.7 Actual AFR (crazy) in pulls that I didnt have wierd lean spikes

As noted above I brought down all my OL fuel tables by 7%...so my no knock OL tables reads 9.3 across the board. You can see from the attached log...that my WOT AFR is amazing...its pinned right at 10.7 and not moving at all. Now OL PT AFRs need a bit of work...but they are fine for now. Im just amazing that the car is actually holding a flat AFR.

Also to note...my OL transition @ 1.1 load is at 3.61 volts...so very close to the 3.67

I am probably going to lower my MAF by another 5% though...because my load is at 190 @ 19 psi. If I bump up to 19.5 psi i'll probably be running into the load clipping again.

[m4tic]

i think its about time i invest in an AP for myself.... im 65k and have had 0 issues, i have no fear lol

[dread]

I just checked some of my old logs and my load hit 226 and then tapered to 190. The 226 was a spike but I was holding over 200. One thing I have done that some may not have was copy my throttle requested load values into the abs load targets table, which cobb had left stock. I'm sure you guys already tested that though.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by AFcadet So I just wanted to report back that my initial testing is looking quiet successful. Just as a recap...this is what I did this morning to my map... I brought my MAF down 5% at 3.67volts and above brought my fuel down by 7% in all OL tables (just to be safe for the first flash) brought my TRLx down by 10% (just to be safe for first flash) Changed the CL Max Load to 1.1 for every table Changed the CL Max Throttle to 100 for every table Bumped the OL Ign Tables up 3 rows Bumped the VVT Tables up 3 rows Before...I had the same issue with fueling...where I would sometimes get wierd lean spikes...and my OL fueling tables would be from 10.5 tapering up to 11.3 just to hold a flat 11.7 Actual AFR (crazy) in pulls that I didnt have wierd lean spikes As noted above I brought down all my OL fuel tables by 7%...so my no knock OL tables reads 9.3 across the board. You can see from the attached log...that my WOT AFR is amazing...its pinned right at 10.7 and not moving at all. Now OL PT AFRs need a bit of work...but they are fine for now. Im just amazing that the car is actually holding a flat AFR. Also to note...my OL transition @ 1.1 load is at 3.61 volts...so very close to the 3.67 I am probably going to lower my MAF by another 5% though...because my load is at 190 @ 19 psi. If I bump up to 19.5 psi i'll probably be running into the load clipping again.

Great to hear this is helping.

and yep what you describe with having to muck around with your OL/WOT tables is exactly what this will resolve. Well to a point mine is only .5 richer in the meet of the power band.

And I too love the rock solid AFR thru the entire RPM band I have NEVER seen that before!!!!!

[Smoker6]

Yeah I'm running a 21psi map on a gt2871r so I imagine I'm affected. I won't have time until the weekend to play with this though.

[Lex]

You're certainly holding that turbo at bay with the throttle!

Originally Posted by AFcadet So I just wanted to report back that my initial testing is looking quiet successful. Just as a recap...this is what I did this morning to my map... I brought my MAF down 5% at 3.67volts and above brought my fuel down by 7% in all OL tables (just to be safe for the first flash) brought my TRLx down by 10% (just to be safe for first flash) Changed the CL Max Load to 1.1 for every table Changed the CL Max Throttle to 100 for every table Bumped the OL Ign Tables up 3 rows Bumped the VVT Tables up 3 rows Before...I had the same issue with fueling...where I would sometimes get wierd lean spikes...and my OL fueling tables would be from 10.5 tapering up to 11.3 just to hold a flat 11.7 Actual AFR (crazy) in pulls that I didnt have wierd lean spikes As noted above I brought down all my OL fuel tables by 7%...so my no knock OL tables reads 9.3 across the board. You can see from the attached log...that my WOT AFR is amazing...its pinned right at 10.7 and not moving at all. Now OL PT AFRs need a bit of work...but they are fine for now. Im just amazing that the car is actually holding a flat AFR. Also to note...my OL transition @ 1.1 load is at 3.61 volts...so very close to the 3.67 I am probably going to lower my MAF by another 5% though...because my load is at 190 @ 19 psi. If I bump up to 19.5 psi i'll probably be running into the load clipping again.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 Yeah I'm running a 21psi map on a gt2871r so I imagine I'm affected. I won't have time until the weekend to play with this though.

Yeah as Lex says. your throttle is prob like 60. Log load and throttle % and see what it looks like.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by dread ...One thing I have done that some may not have was copy my throttle requested load values into the abs load targets table, which cobb had left stock. I'm sure you guys already tested that though.

This was one of my suspicions as well, but i saw zero correlation in other peoples tunes. I haven't verified it 100% myself though (as i have no car), but i don't think it plays a role in this issue.

[Dano]

haven't changed that one...well I don't think...so many things to try and so few hours in the day.

[sleeper329]

So i browsed through this quickly. And i see that everyone seems excited about how this could get the AP to achieve the next level that CPE just released their flash for.

So i will be the guy to do what everyone did to CPE. Where are some dyno sheets? What setup is someone running now with this thats holding up? Are they hitting the same types of problems socks has had with the big power?

[AFcadet]

Originally Posted by Lex You're certainly holding that turbo at bay with the throttle!

Its more so my foot thats holding it at bay lol...I just cant get myself to go WOT in 3rd gear below 4000 RPM.

Plus I have my TRLx ramped up so I dont see full load until 4500.

Call me paranoid...but after popping my motor and seeing a lot of problems pointing to the torque of the motor...I really dont want a lot of ft-lb. Hell...I think Race Roots and their turbo is a prime example. You can see they hardly make any torque...but have globs of HP up top. Our motor can take the HP...just not the torque IMO. So Im staying away from the TQ

[superskaterxes]

just to note, its been confirmed that COBB protuners (and christian himself) have already used this same strategy to get past the load wall so this isent just some random tuning strategy that we came up with.


i will also be testing this via dyno and PROtune on tursday morning so i will have results back then. im currently pegging 2.43 load from 3k to redline on only 18psi lol

[Lex]

Originally Posted by sleeper329 So i browsed through this quickly. And i see that everyone seems excited about how this could get the AP to achieve the next level that CPE just released their flash for. So i will be the guy to do what everyone did to CPE. Where are some dyno sheets? What setup is someone running now with this thats holding up? Are they hitting the same types of problems socks has had with the big power?

Time will tell. There's a difference here however. This is a non profit full disclosure discovery that costs nothing for anyone to try. No one is claiming a hp increase, but rather the ability to better control AFRs and tune the motor at higher loads.

[sleeper329]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes just to note, its been confirmed that COBB protuners (and christian himself) have already used this same strategy to get past the load wall so this isent just some random tuning strategy that we came up with. i will also be testing this via dyno and PROtune on tursday morning so i will have results back then. im currently pegging 2.43 load from 3k to redline on only 18psi lol

cool, ive got your thread about it subbed.

I wasnt trying to knock cobb or the ppl who figured this out, just like seeing the proof.

[djuosnteisn]

I thought your post was funny, hahaha.

I want to see proof too man! But this shit literally just got validated over the weekend. Give it at least a LIL bit of time

[Dano]

Originally Posted by sleeper329 So i browsed through this quickly. And i see that everyone seems excited about how this could get the AP to achieve the next level that CPE just released their flash for. So i will be the guy to do what everyone did to CPE. Where are some dyno sheets? What setup is someone running now with this thats holding up? Are they hitting the same types of problems socks has had with the big power?

You may have browsed thru the doc so quickly that you missed the watermark that says DRAFT. Further you apparently missed my statements regarding this is the beginning not the entire solution. And further still, you missed that it was never stated that this calibration was a solution to “the” wall but a probable solution to “a” wall. I think that most guys on here that are having the issues described in all these related threads are running stock turbos so we aren’t touting this as a BT calibration dream come true. It IS in fact, a solution to issues that many do have and is not at all a “power” solution in the purest sense. In time it may prove to ENABLE the safe and consistent production of power.

[rodrigo]

yes, keep it simple for me ...... mechanics are simple.....electronic wizardry though is over my head.

ill ask aaron to translate for me, only he knows how stupid i really am

Originally Posted by Lex Lenny, do a pull in 4th gear and log calculated load along with boost, RPM, AFR, throttle position and we'll see where you stand.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lenny127 yes, keep it simple for me ...... mechanics are simple.....electronic wizardry though is over my head. ill ask aaron to translate for me, only he knows how stupid i really am

its all smoke and mirrors man!!!

[manelscout4life]

well I just went out and did a log to see how much load I was getting and it appears I didnt get over 190's. I have a cali spec speed3 with stage 1 + sf and with dreads latest fix from here.
Rebirth of the wild child

dread how come your getting load over 200?

here is my data log as well on it you can see the throttle plates closing even though I am at WOT.

I am glad that my afrs and fuel pressure look good though

[triplejumper18]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes just to note, its been confirmed that COBB protuners (and christian himself) have already used this same strategy to get past the load wall so this isent just some random tuning strategy that we came up with. i will also be testing this via dyno and PROtune on tursday morning so i will have results back then. im currently pegging 2.43 load from 3k to redline on only 18psi lol

Tim Bailey Protuned my car a couple weeks ago and I ran data logs yesterday which showed a max load of 2.2 at WOT and there's definitely no wall being hit for me. I think he's already adjusting for this issue.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by manelscout4life well I just went out and did a log to see how much load I was getting and it appears I didnt get over 190's. I have a cali spec speed3 with stage 1 + sf and with dreads latest fix from here. Rebirth of the wild child dread how come your getting load over 200? here is my data log as well on it you can see the throttle plates closing even though I am at WOT. I am glad that my afrs and fuel pressure look good though

Well opinions differ but I don't think anyone will think a 13.38 AFR at WOT 17.8 PSI is good. Your load though doesn't appear to be capped to me but the wierd AFR could very well be an indication.

[Realgib3]

Somebody asked for a log to redline, so I got a 3rd gear log today with the same tune as my last log... aka no timing changes, and still scaling fuel a little early.

I have only a couple things to say about this log...

It was down hill so the boost numbers are a little under, and I had to work the throttle quite a bit for some tranction.

Oh yea,, and uhhh.... check out my throttle...all the way to redline...

[Dano]

so your throttle is now more open than before?

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 so your throttle is now more open than before?

A little more open, but definitely doesn't even kinda close at all toward redline...

[manelscout4life]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Well opinions differ but I don't think anyone will think a 13.38 AFR at WOT 17.8 PSI is good. Your load though doesn't appear to be capped to me but the wierd AFR could very well be an indication.

wow i didnt even see that your right though thats definitely not good.

it appears that the the flat shift to 4 did that o well no more flat shifts till I can richen that up a bit.

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by manelscout4life wow i didnt even see that your right though thats definitely not good. it appears that the the flat shift to 4 did that o well no more flat shifts till I can richen that up a bit.

And that, my friend, is a perfect example of why this fix was developed!

BTW... I blew up on a 3-4 no lift shift...

[Lex]

The speed6s - esp early ones seem to not have this cap until ~2.4 load. Mazda released a TSB flash it seems that sets it to 2.0. DJs car is limited to 2.0

Originally Posted by triplejumper18 Tim Bailey Protuned my car a couple weeks ago and I ran data logs yesterday which showed a max load of 2.2 at WOT and there's definitely no wall being hit for me. I think he's already adjusting for this issue.

[dread]

Originally Posted by manelscout4life well I just went out and did a log to see how much load I was getting and it appears I didnt get over 190's. I have a cali spec speed3 with stage 1 + sf and with dreads latest fix from here. Rebirth of the wild child dread how come your getting load over 200? here is my data log as well on it you can see the throttle plates closing even though I am at WOT. I am glad that my afrs and fuel pressure look good though

For one I am requesting loads above 200 in my gear based req. load tables. I have to do to my shitty cobb intake which forced me to make big changes to my MAF curve. Also I pasted the values from the throttle req load tables that you are using into my abs load table. Not sure if that made a difference, but I have never noticed my load capping out at 195.

[manelscout4life]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 And that, my friend, is a perfect example of why this fix was developed! BTW... I blew up on a 3-4 no lift shift...

wow thats not good

so this fix will take care of the afr after the no lift shifts?

i guess i will be doing this fix after all. i will probably give it a few days though so everyone can try out new values and see what works best

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by manelscout4life wow thats not good so this fix will take care of the afr after the no lift shifts? i guess i will be doing this fix after all. i will probably give it a few days though so everyone can try out new values and see what works best

I don't think you were have the calc load capping issue... So i don't think this will fix your afr's. My best guess for your situation would be that your maf table is too low in the higher g/s values (higher volts). Check out where your lean on your logs (while logging maf volts) and adjust the maf table up in that area.

You may also want to play with your OL PT fuel tables and transition delays.