ECU Load cap shattered!

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson Well my wastegate works fine and all the lines are plugged in. Heres a picture of the .csv and the graph. I think i need to relog it with less PID's so i get more resolution.

Yes, you need AFR and vehicle speed in the log for sure. At first it looked like a tuning problem with the AFR changing as the throttle closed and increasing power/rpms. However the Load is derived from the rpm/MAF, so those values MUST change for the Load to increase like it did. It now looks to me like you MAY have a funky crank angle sensor/connection. Like I've pointed out before that most of the data cells are generally lagging the root cause.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson ...My blow off valve seems to be working fine....

Sure sounds alot like surge. Is your bov adjustable? Maybe back it off a bit, or try a lighter spring.

[Realgib3]

If it's what I had, it's not surge. It's literally like the car can't decide weather it wants to be in boost or vac and just keeps shooting back and forth between the two on my car, and it only happens when your are slowly letting of the throttle after moderate boost... All I know is I plugged my WG back in two days ago and it hasn't done it once since...

[JumpingJackson]

More logs i took. all done in 5th gear around 65-75 mph

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by JumpingJackson More logs i took. all done in 5th gear around 65-75 mph

In datalog 6, check out row 44. Your cacl load spikes a bit (like before) as you let off the gas and right when you go into vacuum. You're AFR's also plummet from 15.43 to 11.32, which suggests your car is popping into OL there, when it should not. You're calc load seems to spike again in row 100, but there is no big change in AFR's here. I'll let someone else eyeball log 7, as I'm a noob and want to pick up some brews at the store.

[djuosnteisn]

JJ, are you using a bov or bpv?

sorry to keep kicking the valve horse...

[superskaterxes]

jj what r u using to control boost?

[Realgib3]

Just wanna let everyone know that I unplugged my wg again tonight to test this out and I got it to have this exact same issue again... May be coincidence but idk.

[Realgib3]

logged this phenomenon on the way to work this morning so i'll post is up tonight and see if it looks the same as JJ's

[bova]

i notice every time i let off the throttle afr's dip down first before going to 29.xx. My theory on this was that from adding a FMIC you make the path air has to travel longer so you will have a momentary rich spike when the throttle closes. probably not the best explanation, but its early and i can't find the words i'm looking for to explain it, haha.

[Dano]

Is it true that logging direct into ATR gives higher res and is anyone here doing it?

It might help with weeding out these strange anomalies.

My setup will not work and I haven't tried to figure out why...just plugged it in an it didn't work...some sort of dongle driver issue with my Win 7 laptop. It worked with Vista

[RJTSi]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Is it true that logging direct into ATR gives higher res and is anyone here doing it? It might help with weeding out these strange anomalies. My setup will not work and I haven't tried to figure out why...just plugged it in an it didn't work...some sort of dongle driver issue with my Win 7 laptop. It worked with Vista

You can set ATR to log up to 10 samples/sec. however it looks like it only refreshes every .2-.3 sec, which is still better than the .5-.6 sec i get when logging with the AP.

[Realgib3]

Alright here's a log of the "stutter" and then a log of my 4th gear pull, I hit traffic pretty quick so I had to let off around 5500 rpm... o well, can wait to open up the exhaust a little so I can run some real boost though.. and DJ, I need a ckt asap. Since you're bailing for a SB I think you owe it to me jk... but really I want one.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Alright here's a log of the "stutter" and then a log of my 4th gear pull, I hit traffic pretty quick so I had to let off around 5500 rpm... o well, can wait to open up the exhaust a little so I can run some real boost though.. and DJ, I need a ckt asap. Since you're bailing for a SB I think you owe it to me jk... but really I want one.

I'M ALMOST CERTAIN this is due to your engine being flooded for a few seconds when it temporarily goes into OL prematurely. I think this is a side affect of the "load cap fix" in the OP, especially when you set all your CL Max Load tables to 1.1.

Are you using the CL Max Load table values of 1.1 across the board as stated in the .pdf in the OP of this thread?

Look at row 5 compared to row 6...Your APP only increased 2%, and your TPP increased 42%. This caused you to go into boost here, which made your calculated Load jump from 65 to 116, which triggers OL in row 6. Look at your LTFT's and your AFR... you're in OL during this "stutter." I think it's because you go can go into boost quickly on the highway with just part throttle (even on the stock map). This causes your Calc load to spike, and if you have your CL exit delays really low, you'll jump into OL.

So, if you breach your lowest CL Max Calc load table value for longer than what is set in your CL exit delays (and if they're really low, it'll probably trigger OL immediately) you'll be forced into OL, and it stays there for a while, flooding the engine with excess fuel which causes the temporary stutter. Note in our tables there is no such table as "OL/WOT exit delays." This is to prevent the ECU from exiting OL/WOT fuel targets prematurely, and causing a dangerous lean condition.

The other thing is the boost spike (to 14 PSI) that occurred in row 7, despite you letting off the throttle. Perhaps check your BPV/BOV. Regardless, I think you're engine is being flooded by a premature transition into OL, which is triggered by the spike in Calc Load.

EDIT: I just noticed from your WOT pull that you're running a high level of boost (>20PSI). That boost spike may not be due to a problem with your BPV/BOV, but when you hit 14PSI in row 7, this is due to your calc load jumping up to 134. When your car targets higher calc loads (and therefore tq), it demands boost to reach those targets. This could be a combination of your calc load, and your boost targets in higher gears. I'm telling you guys, this is directly related to calc load, and triggering OL prematurely.

[Realgib3]

CL values and all my delays are stock right now... Considering the ONLY time I can get this to happen is when my WG is unplugged, I think it's more of a boost causing a load/fuel increase rather than the other way around... On a positive note, this tune is actually really smooth 99% of the time and I have a LOT of room to work with under the load cap, so when I get my exhaust free'd up(hopefully this weekend) then I'll tune for 23 pounds(any be able to hold it a lot longer) then turn it up to 26 ish once I can get fuel pressure up, and still be under the cap...

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 CL values and all my delays are stock right now... Considering the ONLY time I can get this to happen is when my WG is unplugged, I think it's more of a boost causing a load/fuel increase rather than the other way around... On a positive note, this tune is actually really smooth 99% of the time and I have a LOT of room to work with under the load cap, so when I get my exhaust free'd up(hopefully this weekend) then I'll tune for 23 pounds(any be able to hold it a lot longer) then turn it up to 26 ish once I can get fuel pressure up, and still be under the cap...

Well plug that mofo back in! lol Do you see though how it gets triggered into OL though when your calc load increases? I wasn't talking about the load cap, but your CL Max Load delays, which trigger OL. I think OL prematurely for whatever reason, which is causing excess fuel and causing a slight flooding of the engine. Although your AFR's are not super rich, aren't they very rich for a relatively constant pedal position? Also, your timing gets retarded quite by a large amount when you hit OL. I'm glad that 99% of the time it's good though!

[Realgib3]

I originally had it unplugged for a different test, but then unplugged it again so I could get a log of this issue, since nobody believes it could be wg related. I see exactly what your saying, and what I'm saying is all of my max tables, and exit delays are stock in this map, and I believe it's the wg causing a boost spike, which in turn causes a load spike which needs more fuel and less timing... New wg goes on this weekend with some other goodies, so I can actually tune with the wg connected lol.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 I originally had it unplugged for a different test, but then unplugged it again so I could get a log of this issue, since nobody believes it could be wg related. I see exactly what your saying, and what I'm saying is all of my max tables, and exit delays are stock in this map, and I believe it's the wg causing a boost spike, which in turn causes a load spike which needs more fuel and less timing... New wg goes on this weekend with some other goodies, so I can actually tune with the wg connected lol.

Oh, okay. That makes more sense now. Damn you guys with "mechanical problems" are killing me! lol. Much harder to decipher if it's a tuning issue if something mechanical is off imo. Well it sounds like you'll be in good shape pretty soon!

[Realgib3]

Yea, I'm not worried at all since with the wg plugged in it runs absolutely perfectly... just only hits 17 psi due to wg issues, but very soon that will all be taken care of... and yes this car really makes it tough to troubleshoot. Everything that seems like a mech. issue on any other car turns out to be tuning on this... and then when you finally start thinking everything is a tuning issue... it's mechanical. No win, but I love the challenge!

[JumpingJackson]

John @ PTP thinks if i switch to VTA on my BOV it will fix it this issue.

[Realgib3]

Hmmm, I'm running a forge but I'll pull it apart and make sure it's all good in there...

[Dano]

Originally Posted by dougefresh_ I'M ALMOST CERTAIN this is due to your engine being flooded for a few seconds when it temporarily goes into OL prematurely. I think this is a side affect of the "load cap fix" in the OP, especially when you set all your CL Max Load tables to 1.1. Are you using the CL Max Load table values of 1.1 across the board as stated in the .pdf in the OP of this thread?

I know RGs issue isn't fuel b/c he was testing JJs issue but for those who apply either the entire load cap fix or just modify the CL to OL transition, you guys are interpolating your fuel tables around the transition right? If so there should be no stutter related to fueling.

Edit: I have noticed a slight “stumble” when I slowly roll into throttle and pass thru the MAF voltage where I cut my MAF down. This is due to a lean condition where the MAF abruptly drops and the fueling is cut accordingly BUT g/s is actually increasing. It is so slight it doesn't even show up as an AFR change in a log. I have promised to IP my MAF around my transition voltages and post the results but work has kept me too busy to do it.

The reality is, in normal driving I never see the anomaly and it is difficult to reproduce anyway.

[Realgib3]

Yea I remember when I was having that issue as well, and that's gone now since my fueling is more "blended in" This strange though, but if it gets annoying I'll just plug the wg back in and be slow but somehow I don't think it will be annoying enough for me to give up the boost increase lol.

[dougefresh_]

Quick question for you guys. I'm not sure if this is a 'load cap' issue or not.... I don't think so.... Anyways, I flashed a new map that's a bit leaner (from super rich) with some other changes, and my AFR's hit 12.4 in a few spots at WOT. I want to make those a bit richer, but I decided to first re-calibrate my maf, as I had over-scaled 2.5v and up.
Here's my quesiton:
I did the MAF g/s test, but I was able to do it gradually all the way up to where I hit OL. My LTFT's were -5.6 from about 2.3v all the way up to 3.84v (~170g/s). Can I use the -5.6 for my MAF cal all the way up to 3.84v? The helpfile says to just do it to 2.6v or so. I'd appreciate some advice!

[Dano]

scale it all the way to the end. help file is wrong or maybe right, depending on where you stand. I think Cobb knows about the load cap and scaling your MAF up gets you closer to the cap if not over it.

The way to tell if you are hitting the cap is if logged Load flat lines early in a WOT run and doesn't start to fall until the upper RPMs.

You engine is obviously increasing load the entire time in a gradual curve but the ECU can't calc it.

[Blackspeed]

Im pretty sure you can use it if you didnt go into OL. anyways....I thought the help file just said to use the same values that you got close to the 2.3v and apply them all the way to the end

[djuosnteisn]

The reason the helpfile suggest only making adjustments up to that voltage is cause i believe that's where the last LTFT segment stops, or something along those lines.

But by all means you can make MAF adjustments anywhere on the curve. And this is exactly what you should do if your experiencing lean conditions at wot, you should increase the maf curve. This simply tells the ecu that there is more air coming in for that sensor voltage, and that it needs to add more fuel.



It will work perfectly until you do hit a calc load cap. At that point you can increase the maf curve to 1000 and it will make no difference at all.

[Dano]

been so long since I read the file I don't remmember exactly what it said. LOL

back then my ECU didn't do anything I told it to so I threw the help file out the window and started hacking on that bitch on my own.

hahahahaha

amen to what DJ said!

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed Im pretty sure you can use it if you didnt go into OL. anyways....I thought the help file just said to use the same values that you got close to the 2.3v and apply them all the way to the end

I did that with my very first MAF cal... last value was like 1.03 and I carried it to the end, and was running super rich. There's been a few tweaks to the map (slight boost increase, slightly leaner WOT table). Since there aren't too many volt cells between where I hit OL and the end, I'll try that.

ALSO, for the first time ever... I hit OL at a calc load under 200. OL IS dictated by my MAF g/s and not calc load over 200 for me. I rechecked a bunch of prior logs, and it switches to OL when the g/s hit 170g/s. This is what you guys have been saying all along! Totally my bad. It was just that every time I hit OL before, it was during WOT runs and therefore higher calc loads (in WOT it just happens to be calc load hit 200). But comparing my WOT runs to this "gradual throttle" MAF g/s test, I saw (for the first time) OL occurs at ~170g/s. Today that happened at a calc load of ~147 and ~167 because it was a lighter throttle increase (and loads). So, cacl load has nothing to do with it. I was just fooled by my consistent calc load of 200 because I was always in WOT there when g/s breached 170 g/s.

So, I take back the calc load business = OL, and reiterate, that I was WRONG!! I'm glad I did the MAF test again though up to OL, because that def supports what you guys were saying.

[Dano]

I don't know if I agree with your thinking. There are no tables [in ATR at least] that would indicate that the transition is based on MAF g/s. There are of course many that indicate it is based on Throtle and or load.

[Blackspeed]

So, are the CL table changes you made according to Dano's pdf still working like you thought? I made these changes last night and flashed it, so I just want to make sure.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn The reason the helpfile suggest only making adjustments up to that voltage is cause i believe that's where the last LTFT segment stops, or something along those lines. But by all means you can make MAF adjustments anywhere on the curve. And this is exactly what you should do if your experiencing lean conditions at wot, you should increase the maf curve. This simply tells the ecu that there is more air coming in for that sensor voltage, and that it needs to add more fuel. It will work perfectly until you do hit a calc load cap. At that point you can increase the maf curve to 1000 and it will make no difference at all.

Yeah, I thought scaling the higher end of the MAF would make it richer... I just did the MAF test to see wtf was going on. Check out my attached MAF g/s test though... I'm still getting LTFT's up to 3.83volts (row 59, highlighted). I'm thinking if other people tried doing the MAF test beyond 2.3v (but avoid going WOT like I did), it may shed some light on things. That, or cause mass confusion! lol

Originally Posted by Dano2010 I don't know if I agree with your thinking. There are no tables [in ATR at least] that would indicate that the transition is based on MAF g/s. There are of course many that indicate it is based on Throtle and or load.

I don't think I agree with my thinking either! LOL. Is it time for my dumb ass to throw in the towel, and get a pro-tune?! lol. I crushed the first part of the CPA exam np, but I can't figure this shit out?! Incidentally, the next exam is at the end of the month, and I do not have much time (none really) to work on this... FML

EDIT: Another MAF g/s test that has my LTFT's up to 3.8v attached
PS: I've seen my Calc Load as high as 225

EDIT 2: I just applied the MAF changes, and added 2% more fuel after towards the tail end of the MAF curve. I also made my both my Part throttle/OL fuel tables 1% richer as I was sick of seeing my AFR's jump to the mid 15's at dip in. I know that'll affect fuel economy a bit, but I don't care. I'm not sure how much if any power loss that'll make, but I want to see it it will drop my AFRs at dip in. Thanks for you input, and I hope you can figure out what's going on w/ the LTFT's up to 3.8v. Peace

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by dougefresh_ I just applied the MAF changes, and added 2% more fuel after towards the tail end of the MAF curve. I also made my both my Part throttle/OL fuel tables 1% richer as I was sick of seeing my AFR's jump to the mid 15's at dip in.

Just an FYI, this not only worked, but I'm now hitting my OL/WOT fuel targets 1 row BEFORE my FT's zero out. I have NEVER seen that before. Also, I'm no longer a bit lean at dip in right before WOT.... the transition from OL/Part throttle to OL/WOT is smoother with no "AFR Lag." And my idle AFRs are more stable to boot, probably due to the MAF adjustment.

I'm pretty psyched about this!!

EDIT:Where it's a bit lean and says "what you said about shift issue here" was meant for Forzda, lol. I wanted to post this over here though in case you guys wanted to try it, or hit OL a row before your FT's zero. I think there may be other tuning applications here, but I gotta get some work done!
EDIT: Came up with another half-baked "theory" that explains why this worked.

[FreeFlyFreak]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Welcome to the club of...........
Thinking you have stuff figured out with the ECU.........
and then realizing you have nothing figured out and almost everything you thought you had figured... was BS.

There are many members of that club here me included.

[Dano]

exactly,

I think there are actually two "flashable" areas within the ECU and IT swaps them out randomly. So you get one tuned the way you want...it works great for a few runs then WHAM! ECU goes skitzo and swaps to the other one. you tune that one and ...well, you get the pic

hahahahahaha

[Smoker6]

Very nice. And you were incredulous that I (partially) blamed the part throttle OL tables. :P (directed at doug mind you)

[Dano]

hahahaha

all I know now is my shit is running FAST & safe due to the changes in post #1.

I don't have enough experience to say much more than that.

If I was a dick about this in the past...I am truely sorry LOL

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 exactly, I think there are actually two "flashable" areas within the ECU and IT swaps them out randomly. So you get one tuned the way you want...it works great for a few runs then WHAM! ECU goes skitzo and swaps to the other one. you tune that one and ...well, you get the pic hahahahahaha

Yeah dude, I dunno anymore. I'm just gonna save up, get my fuel pump, ic, and then a pro-tune. This thing is a waste of my time. I never had any 'load cap' issues though... ever. I was just trying to make sense of things. You should check out that log above though.. you can see that I have her in OL before WOT, and the AFR transition is much smoother.

Originally Posted by Smoker6 Very nice. And you were incredulous that I (partially) blamed the part throttle OL tables. :P (directed at doug mind you)

Now I thought we were both tossing that idea around Senor Smoke! lol

All I know is that I'm fucked now. We went out for a while earlier, and I did some WOT pulls in the process... including a full 2-3 to redline. I was looking forward to the checking out the logs, but when I pulled in, I saw the screen was all black. I was like, Hmmm the cord must've popped out. Well, it didn't. My AP SHIT THE BED TONIGHT!! For no good reason. It won't turn on when I plug it into my laptop. It just happened between my last stop to grab a few brews, and home. I'm glad those first logs look healthy, because I'm driving now until Cobb fixes this thing.
Oh, and I saw a decent accident in my rear view mirror on the way home, two cars behind me at a red light. Some moron switched lanes right into this dude pretty hard. I was on the gas getting the FO before more idiots piled in, lol.

Bummed about the AP though, and more so that the great WOT pull data that was on there

[ToledoSpeed3]

Originally Posted by dougefresh_ ...I was looking forward to the checking out the logs, but when I pulled in, I saw the screen was all black. I was like, Hmmm the cord must've popped out. Well, it didn't. My AP SHIT THE BED TONIGHT!! For no good reason. It won't turn on when I plug it into my laptop. It just happened between my last stop to grab a few brews, and home. I'm glad those first logs look healthy, because I'm driving now until Cobb fixes this thing. Oh, and I saw a decent accident in my rear view mirror on the way home, two cars behind me at a red light. Some moron switched lanes right into this dude pretty hard. I was on the gas getting the FO before more idiots piled in, lol. Bummed about the AP though, and more so that the great WOT pull data that was on there

This sucks man...keep us posted on what you find out about this.

[FORZDA 1]

Hey Douge,
Here are a few logs I just took on the map I sent you. You can run the comparisons on these vs your logs/map and see the differences. I REALLY like this map and have no plans to make any changes until the BNR turbo and DNP go in.