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 Old 08-23-2009, 11:47 PM   #1
 
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Default Lowering WGDC

Now that I am starting to up the boost on my custom map and I am holding 16.5 to 17 boost to about 6200 ish I see my wgdc is starting to get fairly high around mid 80's peak.


What can I do to lower this? Should I expect to be able to hold a solid 18 boost until 6k? My load targets are around 1.75 in 3rd+ which seems sort of high for only 16.5 - 17 psi, but I believe it has a lot to do with my wot maf calibration which was off a fair amount.


I think I will be able to hit my target of 18 boost per gear as long as I taper it past 5400/5500 rpm. I do hold about 17 where my wgdc is starting to max out. What can I do to avoid pegging the waste gate at 5k+ rpms?

Car is running I/rp/bpv/cdfp/ meth - d03 nozzle on a 150 psi pump so very little meth.
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 Old 08-24-2009, 11:42 AM   #2
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You could buy a bigger turbo that's actually efficient at 17lbs & 6000rpm.


The reason your WG is so high, is cause your ecu is trying it's best to close the WG to help build more boost.

quick edit, a down pipe and turbo inlet would probably help alot.
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 Old 08-24-2009, 01:30 PM   #3
 
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Does temp have any effect on wgdc? Well, is it safe to assume that all these guys running similar mods and holding 18+ boost at high rpms are pegging the piss out of their WG?



Can is running really strong on 17 and I am happy as is, I guess high wgdc at 18 ish psi is common. I want to keep my current setup as the blown motors all over the place scare me! I feel fairly safe on a well tuned car with cdfp and meth. If I HAVE to, ill see if a inlet helps me out any. I am pretty happy pushing 17 lbs of boost though and the car is running better than ever. It feels pretty quick for 17 lbs.
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 Old 08-24-2009, 01:58 PM   #4
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If your worried about blowing up, tune your boost way down under 3000rpm. Keep it at or under 10-12 psi, and then around 3500 & up give it the full 18psi.

If you want to run 18psi more efficiently, you'll need to upgrade some hardware, like downpipe and inlet.

Downpipe is most critical to turbo efficiency IMO. Here's a quicky math example as to why. The turbine operates on a pressure ratio (just like the compressor), so you'll have a pressure drop across the turbine, from the exh manifold to the downpipe. Let's say your pressure ratio is 4, then if you have 5psi of exh back pressure at your turbine outlet, then you'll have 20psi in your exh manifold. But if you slap a downpipe on, and reduce that back pressure to 3psi (dropped by 2), now your exh mani is only sitting at 12psi (dropped by whopping 8psi!). This greatly helps the VE of the motor, and increases the efficiency of the turbo.

I think a well designed down pipe does wonders for this car.
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 Old 08-24-2009, 02:16 PM   #5
 
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Working on the boost thing now, I am not hitting max load until 3500.

In the past i have held 18 and 19 psi from ots maps on the same set up. I guess my wgdc was simply past its limit. I am trying to keep it around 80-85% max at higher rpms. I dont know what everyone feels is a safe number, but I dont really see more wgdc being a bad thing as long as you are not holding it open 100% all the time.
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 Old 08-24-2009, 02:42 PM   #6
 
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If you allow the throttle to close like stock, it will help this also.

I am seeing 100% wgdc with 16psi at 6k, its gonna have to go lower. mid 80s? fuck i wish mine was only in the mid 80s. Even at 15-16psi its pegged at 100% in the upper rpms.

Without downpipes, or other efficiency mods you are going to have this problem no matter what unless you bring boost WAY WAY WAY down in the upper rpms. IE...the whole fall on its face like it does stock deal. Theres a reason why the car came from the factory like that.

The way I see it, I dont usually drive WOT up that high anyways, so when I do it its a rare thing...i try not to worry about it too much.
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 Old 08-24-2009, 05:08 PM   #7
 
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Cobb recommends staying under 95%, mid 80's isn't something I'd worry about.
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 Old 08-24-2009, 10:01 PM   #8
 
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If you look closely at what I'm going to post here, done tonight, there's some interesting stuff. Look at the load targets and how they compare to the log - through the meat of the powerband, they're very close, but at higher rpm, not so much. The WG compensates slightly, but it could obviously do more if it wanted to. I'm happy with it, just saying there's more going on than we have access to I think. I posted my WG table just to do something, but even though it's a little more conservative than ots, it doesn't matter from my experience.

I'm same as you but with a TMIC. I doubt if you can safely, or maybe any way, get 18 psi at high rpm without stupid high load targets without a dp. If someone let me borrow their car I'd experiment with some 1.9 loads at 6K, but I don't think that'll happen.

Anyhow, here you go ... oh, I included the chart just because I love the shape of the 4th gear boost curve. The log and chart are 4th and a little of 5th. The dip after the shift is over compensation from the Boost Comp Throttle I think, reacting to the spike.









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 Old 08-24-2009, 11:43 PM   #9
 
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Does adjusting wot portion of the maf have any effect on load? I am now at 1.80 load in gears 3rd and 4th and I hold a solid 17 psi which I am happy with. How do you guys feel about my load targets with an intake/rp? Should I be ok holding 17 boost till 6k?


Single 4th gear pulls hold a mid 16 until 5k, but when I am going through the gears it seems to hold about 17. 5th and 6th are still fairly low but will be brought up to 17 psi.
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 Old 08-25-2009, 08:18 AM   #10
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Adjusting the wot portion of the maf has EVERYTHING to do with the calculated load, and will definitely affect the boost you see.

I think, if your cal'd, meaning: your wot afr's match your map afr's, and your logged load somewhat matches your requested load, and your happy with the boost levels your seeing, your done!

If you don't like the boost, or are uncomfortable with it, you can simply dial down your requested load in your gear tables.

Oh and fjames, my loads are upto 2.02 muhahahaha, and i love it.
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 Old 08-25-2009, 12:49 PM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
Adjusting the wot portion of the maf has EVERYTHING to do with the calculated load, and will definitely affect the boost you see.

I think, if your cal'd, meaning: your wot afr's match your map afr's, and your logged load somewhat matches your requested load, and your happy with the boost levels your seeing, your done!

If you don't like the boost, or are uncomfortable with it, you can simply dial down your requested load in your gear tables.

Oh and fjames, my loads are upto 2.02 muhahahaha, and i love it.


Arent you fully bolted on a gt28 or something similar? My wof maf is calibrated and I do hit and hold my afr within .1 ish of target everytime. Why is it that so many people are ignoring wot maf?

I am happy with boost for now, ill continue to work on the curve but will not up load any more.
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 Old 08-25-2009, 01:24 PM   #12
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Yeah i'm running a 3071.

It's not that people are ignoring wot maf, it's just that some don't care whether or not they're afr's match the map, as long as the real life afr's are acceptable. They'll just keep lowering the WOT EQ values (or raising) until they get the desired real world afr ratio they want. It's simply an alternative tuning method.

I like the fact that my wot maf is cal'd though, cause i then know what's in my map is what i'll see in real life. It makes it easier to visualize and tune the vehicle.
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 Old 08-29-2009, 02:15 AM   #13
 
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So these load targets are nothing more than a number? Should I be worried about pushing a low/mid 180 load target with intake/rp? Whats the difference between a car pushing 18 boost at 180 load and a car pushing 18 at a low 170?

I dont like seeing these higher load targets.



edit- I am no longer hitting my load targets in 4th gear, what would cause this?

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 Old 08-29-2009, 05:20 AM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by Meder View Post
So these load targets are nothing more than a number?
These load targets are nothing more than a number to us because we don't know how the ECU calculates load.

Originally Posted by Meder View Post
Should I be worried about pushing a low/mid 180 load target with intake/rp?
no

Originally Posted by Meder View Post
Whats the difference between a car pushing 18 boost at 180 load and a car pushing 18 at a low 170?
short simple answer, volumetric efficiency

Originally Posted by Meder View Post
edit- I am no longer hitting my load targets in 4th gear, what would cause this?
A lot of things. That's a very vague question.
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 Old 08-29-2009, 08:52 AM   #15
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I am running a max of 1.92 load; however, if it is above ~80°F my WGDC goes to 100%. It can achieve this load at more like 80% when it is 60°F ambient.
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 Old 08-29-2009, 12:30 PM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by cld12pk2go View Post
I am running a max of 1.92 load; however, if it is above ~80°F my WGDC goes to 100%. It can achieve this load at more like 80% when it is 60°F ambient.
As for my load targets, wgdc is good, temps are ok for my climate, and I dont see why I would not be able to hit my load in 4th. I did not let the car learn very long and doing some pulls while running around town today it seemed better just by eyeing boost, but we know how that can turn out. If my wgdc is only in the 80's, my temps are all ok and everything checks out, what would be the cause of me not hitting load targets? I was about 85f last night.

3rd and 4th gear log
Attached Files
File Type: csv datalog13.csv (1.3 KB, 4 views)
File Type: csv datalog14.csv (1.4 KB, 3 views)

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 Old 08-29-2009, 01:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Meder View Post
As for my load targets, wgdc is good, temps are ok for my climate, and I dont see why I would not be able to hit my load in 4th. I did not let the car learn very long and doing some pulls while running around town today it seemed better just by eyeing boost, but we know how that can turn out. If my wgdc is only in the 80's, my temps are all ok and everything checks out, what would be the cause of me not hitting load targets? I was about 85f last night.

3rd and 4th gear log
What are your boost targets. It might be that you are at your boost targets and it isn't going over that to reach your load targets.

How these two tables interact is not entirely clear to me.
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 Old 08-29-2009, 01:34 PM   #18
 
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Boost targets starting at 2500 rpm for the last 2 colums.


Code:
16.00	16.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	16.00	13.00	10.00
16.00	16.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	16.00	13.00	10.00
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 Old 08-29-2009, 01:44 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Meder View Post
Boost targets starting at 2500 rpm for the last 2 colums.


Code:
16.00	16.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	16.00	13.00	10.00
16.00	16.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	17.50	16.00	13.00	10.00
I would try increasing 3500-5500 to 18.5 and see if you hit your load targets.
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 Old 08-30-2009, 02:00 PM   #20
 
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Here is a log of a 3rd and 4th gear, and then just a single 4th. I seem fine and hold a bit too much boost through out my single gear pull in 4th, but I am unable to hit my load targets when I go through 3rd+4th? I am not sure if boost targets are helping me out here, why would it not hit the load targets when going through the gears? I am also unable to stop the 21 boost spike in 4th gear, my car has been doing this for awhile. Lowering load does not seem to help as it always spikes when I shift. Is this just something that we have to expect due to our small turbo?


I deleted the middle of the log.
Attached Files
File Type: csv datalog16.csv (3.1 KB, 5 views)
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 Old 08-30-2009, 02:11 PM   #21
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AFAIK the boost targets table is used when in closed loop and targeting a specific boost. When in open loop the ecu targets a specific load, and would be reference all the requested load tables. Not sure why your not hitting your targets, but weather and temps play a huge role in it.
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 Old 08-30-2009, 04:36 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Meder View Post
Here is a log of a 3rd and 4th gear, and then just a single 4th. I seem fine and hold a bit too much boost through out my single gear pull in 4th, but I am unable to hit my load targets when I go through 3rd+4th? I am not sure if boost targets are helping me out here, why would it not hit the load targets when going through the gears? I am also unable to stop the 21 boost spike in 4th gear, my car has been doing this for awhile. Lowering load does not seem to help as it always spikes when I shift. Is this just something that we have to expect due to our small turbo?


I deleted the middle of the log.
Post your 3+4th gear TRL table values. Your WGDC isn't at 100%, so your car should be trying to increase it to meet the load target else it is targeting one of the other 2 load tables.

I got my boost spike to stay away via tweaking the WGDC table, my TRL load tables, and my Boost control - Throttle close tables.
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 Old 08-30-2009, 04:51 PM   #23
 
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3rd gear trl

Code:
0.70	0.83	0.97	1.15	1.40	1.57	1.69	1.83	1.83	1.83	1.78	1.74	1.69	1.45	1.25


4th gear trl

Code:
0.70	0.83	0.97	1.15	1.40	1.57	1.69	1.83	1.83	1.83	1.78	1.74	1.69	1.45	1.25


edit - just noticed they are the same.
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 Old 08-30-2009, 05:29 PM   #24
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You can also adjust your "Boost Comp: 3rd Gear A" and "Boost Comp: 4rd Gear A" to 1.00 across the board.

The stock values will aim for lower and drop the boost aim in the 3000-5500 range.


You might also need to make your load dynamics table a little more aggressive. Here is my current one:

Code:
0.25	0.25	0.17	0.12	0.00	-0.12	-0.17	-0.25	-0.25	-0.25	-0.30

It would probably help some to look at your log and see what WGDC you were running and alter your WGDC table to more closely match. You might find that you need to add 5-15% in the higher RPMs as I did.
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 Old 08-30-2009, 05:35 PM   #25
 
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I do hit my targets in other gears, and I do hit my targets in a single gear pull, but I am not hitting them when going through the gears?

If I adjust the load dynamics, wont it screw with everything else that seems to be working? What about boost spikes, if I lower load or wgdc wont it lower my boost in general at those rpms? I only spike when going through the gears for whatever odd reason.
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 Old 08-30-2009, 10:06 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Meder View Post
I do hit my targets in other gears, and I do hit my targets in a single gear pull, but I am not hitting them when going through the gears?

If I adjust the load dynamics, wont it screw with everything else that seems to be working? What about boost spikes, if I lower load or wgdc wont it lower my boost in general at those rpms? I only spike when going through the gears for whatever odd reason.

Not sure about the difference between a single gear vs. several gears. Have you done many logs and see the same behavior repeatedly?


What I would recommend for starters:

Adjust your WGDC based upon a log to what is actually required to achieve your load/boost targets. I had to lower the 2250-3500 and increase 4000-6000 RPMs. This will let your WGDC be close to where it needs to be before the ECU starts to compensate the WGDC with the PI loop (boost or load dynamics tables).

I would also set your boost table - throttle closed to 0.5-1 PSI above whatever boost you want max.

These two will most likely fix your spiking.

I am still playing with the boost and load dynamics tables to see if they can help achieve targets by going more/less aggressive on the PI loop. The one I posted above is what I am currently using and it appears to work fine, but I cannot say it is significantly different functionally than the stock parameters. It certainly hasn't screwed anything up for me.
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It is only holding in the 16's when going through the gears at the top of 4th every log I do. My bov has not been kept very up to date and it has over 25k miles on it. I am thinking maybe I may clean it and oil it up but I am not sure that would have an effect since everything else seems to be on point and it holds and meets its target for a single gear pull.
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