OEM toe issue.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 I misread the numbers, my apologies. Was looking at your new front and rear and was thinking I was looking at rear before and after... At any rate, if your toe was at -0.02 degrees before I have a hard time believing that it was causing you tire wear issues. And just so you know, it will CERTAINLY scrub the insides of the tires with a bit of toe-in, unless you're running 0 or positive camber. It's only so much an OEM spec issue in that the OEM ranges are too large (i.e., you can still have an alignment withing the OEM spec range).

The OEM range is ridiculously large and allows for this to happen.

Is this normal tire wear?

[dachtler]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 I misread the numbers, my apologies. Was looking at your new front and rear and was thinking I was looking at rear before and after... At any rate, if your toe was at -0.02 degrees before I have a hard time believing that it was causing you tire wear issues. And just so you know, it will CERTAINLY scrub the insides of the tires with a bit of toe-in, unless you're running 0 or positive camber.

Good point, and the more I think about it, I'm hoping I have not exacerbated the problem. My thinking was that, if I had a bit of toe-in, the action of driving down the road with that would slightly counteract the negative camber, and place the load more on the inside tread and less on the inside shoulder. If there is no toe-in, then you're strictly dealing with the negative camber in a straight line.

I'm going to try driving with this setup for a bit, and then check the tires. If they are wearing faster, I'll go back and have all the toe-in removed from the front, and toe-out removed from the rear.

Thanks very much to everyone for their input.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by Bucker The OEM range is ridiculously large and allows for this to happen. Is this normal tire wear?

I know, which is why I've posted about it in this very thread more than once:

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 This is why I always get a performance alignment on ALL my cars right after I buy them, regardless of whether or not the car is new. Factory "alignments" (if you can actually call the controlled assembly that they do an "alignment") are sketchy, at best, especially on a budget-oriented Mazda...

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 If you're simply going to try and "get it in the green," you're doing it wrong... You should have specific values for your alignment that you're trying to attain. The ranges that are in those machines (and the ranges that are in the FSM, for that matter) are ridiculously large, and you can end up with a pretty shitty alignment if all you're doing is making sure you're "within spec." Do you have any camber correction parts?? If not, I suggest just getting your toe setting set at or very near zero at both ends (I actually run 1/16" toe out in the front to aide turn-in), and having the alignment guys get the front camber/caster as even as possible from left to right using the small amount of "wiggle room" in the front top strut mount bolts.

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 Sorry, but I can't agree with you. As has been pointed out, an alignment that is "in spec" can still be horrible for proper tire wear...

[skawt01]

Sorry to bring this old thread back, but it's better than firing up a new one.

Just had an alignment done at a local dealer who said the rear negative camber issue is w/in spec, and is not adjustable (I didn't know that). So I'm curious if anyone w/ stock suspension is still having this rear tire wear issue due to negative camber.

Seems Mazda designed the car this way, but it's eating my tires on the inside edge. Shit ain't right. It'd be awesome if we all blitzed MazdaUSA w/ this issue and they opened a TSB for it.

[Nliiitend1]

What is your rear toe set at?

Honestly, you should be able to run some pretty aggressive negative rear camber without a ridiculous amount of inside wear if your toe is at or very close to zero...

At any rate, I suggest replacing the rear upper "camber arms" with adjustable SPC arms since that will give you the ability to put your rear camber pretty much wherever you want, and will also give you the ability to fix any from-the-factory cross-camber you might have due to manufacturing and assembly tolerances. As a bonus, you'll get a little more responsive handling from the removal of some of that unwanted rear negative camber.

[skawt01]

Thanks man. My numbers:

Rear: Left
Camber: Actual: -1.7 Before: -1.7
Toe: Actual 0.10 Before: 0.13

Rear: Right
Camber: Actual -2.3 Before: -2.2
Toe: Actual 0.17 Before: -0.20

How do you feel about these numbers, Nliiitend?

Thing is, one can look at the tires and easily deduce that they'll wear unevenly on the inside. The outside edge of the tires aren't even in contact w/ the ground. It's like the stock spec is set for a Formula 1 car.

I'll check out the SPC camber arms, but I'm not excited about altering suspension after some trouble w/ Tein coilovers on my old car.

[Nliiitend1]

I run zero toe in the rear.

Yours could be set way more precisely (at the very least they should be equal from left-to-right so that your car isn't "crab-walking" down the road). Some like to run a very small amount (like 1/16" TOTAL - 1/32" on each side) of toe in...

As far as your camber goes, if it were my car I'd do something to correct the cross-camber (either adjustable arms or the cheaper alternative - camber bolts that replace the outermost attachment bolt of the camber arms with a cammed bolt - picture below)



As far as the SPC arms go, they are honestly an OEM-quality piece that was most-likely designed as a collision-repair part (to fix issues that might otherwise require a new rear subframe). They use OEM-style bushings at the attachment points and are no different than the OEM arms other than the fact that they have a very robust threaded end that allows you to lengthen or shorten their effective length.

They aren't the easiest part to install due to some clearance issues with the passenger-side arm, but it's do-able.

[timjs]

All Mazda 3's chew the inside edge of the tires. The rear camber is far negative, and non-adjustable.
We get customers ALL the time that are pissed because they need tires at 20k miles...and that their 10k mile old tires are roaring down the road because the inside tread is so cupped and chopped.

It is what it is.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by timjs All Mazda 3's chew the inside edge of the tires. The rear camber is far negative, and non-adjustable. We get customers ALL the time that are pissed because they need tires at 20k miles...and that their 10k mile old tires are roaring down the road because the inside tread is so cupped and chopped. It is what it is.

Dude, did you even read this thread?

All it usually takes is setting the toe properly to fix the major wear issue...

[timjs]

Im just letting you know what I see on a daily basis, chill out.
Are you trying to tell me that insane camber isnt going to wear the inside thread? Really?

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by timjs Im just letting you know what I see on a daily basis, chill out. Are you trying to tell me that insane camber isnt going to wear the inside thread? Really?

Define "insane camber."

You can easily run ~-2º to -2.5º on these cars with zero toe and not see crazy uneven wear if you follow proper tire rotation intervals and don't spend all of your driving time on straight highway slab.

[timjs]

The rear camber specification on them are what I would consider insane camber. It's almost like it's set up like an autocross car.

Here's what I know. Tire wear is one of the most common complaints on the 3's.

It doesn't MATTER if the tires are perfectly zero'd on toe, and it doesn't matter if the tires are rotated properly, the fact is that almost every set of tires I've ever done on a mazda 3 had excessive inside shoulder wear. Often times the outer shoulder and main tread area have 5 or more 32nds of tread remaining. The rear camber kills tire life on the 3's...plain and simple.

Seriously man, I do this every day. Im not an idiot, so stop arguing. If the damn tires are leaning on their sides, THAT side will wear at an accelerated rate. Camber IS a tire wearing angle, its elementary dude. What is your argument anyways? That setting the toe straight suddenly makes camber a non wearing angle?

[Pu Manchu]

toe causes wear much faster than camber the same way hard accelerating and cornering on your tires causes wear much faster than simply driving down the interstate.

Toe causes your tires to be turned even while you're driving straight, creating more friction.

[timjs]

That's correct. My point remains however.

[Pu Manchu]

I guess all of us with normal rear tire wear must be driving a different car.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by timjs That's correct. My point remains however.

You're exaggerating the amount of uneven wear that is caused by the camber component of the rear wheel alignment. Most of it is due to toe. Is camber a factor? Yes. Is it solely responsible? No. In fact, as I said before, you can get away with a lot of negative camber if you have relatively neutral toe settings and you maintain proper tire rotation intervals. Just because you have static negative camber doesn't mean your dynamic camber is always negative... If you had zero camber do you think your tires would wear perfectly evenly across the tread?? Not if you ever spent any time cornering they wouldn't...

[Nataphen]

Been on this setup for almost 30k miles on Hankook v12s, and it's almost time to change them. I cross rotated all four once at 15k, rotated front to back every 5k, and added a touch more toe out in front to make it -1/16 total. I have no cords showing this time, the tires aren't roaring anymore than when I put them on, and the tread depth is lower on the edges, but still would pass inspection. 30k miles with lots of highway miles, in town miles, backroading, and some drag racing.

Camber will wear tires, but toe is what's killing tires on these cars. If you have a shop that will take their time to make sure that the alignment is exact, roll the car back and forth some to recomp, and get .02 or less thrust angle, then the car will be much more kind to tires.

EDIT: For those wondering, the little bit of +toe in the rear is to compensate for high speed and hard braking deflection. What that means is that when you are going fast or braking hard, the force will push on the tires causing them to toe out some, which results in squirrely nonsense at the back end in those conditions. Toeing in a little helps keep the toe at speed and under braking closer to 0.

[skawt01]

So I wrote MazdaUSA an email via their website and asked in detail about this alignment issue, and if Mazda would be replacing the tires when they wear out prematurely.

Their response: "We are not technically trained, and any technical issue should be brought to the dealer...", which I already did, and they say the alignment they did is w/in spec. So it seems we're stuck w/ this funky tire-chomping alignment unless we install aftermarket camber arms? Seems like our best option.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by skawt01 So I wrote MazdaUSA an email via their website and asked in detail about this alignment issue, and if Mazda would be replacing the tires when they wear out prematurely. Their response: "We are not technically trained, and any technical issue should be brought to the dealer...", which I already did, and they say the alignment they did is w/in spec. So it seems we're stuck w/ this funky tire-chomping alignment unless we install aftermarket camber arms? Seems like our best option.

I e-mailed them once and got the same answer.

What if the dealership isn't technically trained? LOL

[adlpb]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 What if the dealership isnt't technically trained?

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 You're exaggerating the amount of uneven wear that is caused by the camber component of the rear wheel alignment. Most of it is due to toe. Is camber a factor? Yes. Is it solely responsible? No. In fact, as I said before, you can get away with a lot of negative camber if you have relatively neutral toe settings and you maintain proper tire rotation intervals. Just because you have static negative camber doesn't mean your dynamic camber is always negative... If you had zero camber do you think your tires would wear perfectly evenly across the tread?? Not if you ever spent any time cornering they wouldn't...

I had serious rear inner tire wear with -3 degrees of camber and no toe issues.


Tapadatass

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by silvapain I had serious rear inner tire wear with -3 degrees of camber and no toe issues. Tapadatass

-3° is what I would definitely call "excessive," and I wouldn't expect you to have anywhere near "normal" wear with that kind of camber.

I ran between -2° and -2.5° for a long time (through 2 sets of tires and two different suspension setups) on my second Focus before I got around to installing camber correction parts, and while I observed more-frequent-than-most-would-perform (~2.5-3K mile) tire rotation intervals, I didn't have problems when my toe was zeroed out.

Half of a degree doesn't sound like much, but it can make a pretty big difference depending on the camber curve of the suspension geometry...

[kylec_2003]

My issue on inner tire wear isn't on the rear but on the front. My front just eat the inner wall but I can't complain to much. Made it about 18k on the stockers driving like an asshole on curvy back roads to work everyday. All 4 have cords showing now so its time for the winter set.

[VR10Speed]

My 2010 speed has this issue at 8k miles. I am going to print this entire thread out and take it to the dealer and see if they will warranty new tires and a good alignment.

[Harobmx87]

my stock tires did that at 11k and swapped em for 235/40/18 v12's
alignment was done and just noticed my v12's are also starting to wear like this now at 27-28k.
i think i'll do my own alignment at work soon. i work at a tire shop so w/e. i need tires every 12-15 months

[10m3]

Originally Posted by 9900rpm Nate, my MS3 has the same problem. Inside of the tires wear a lot worst than the rest. I ended up getting that Firestone lifetime alignment thing for $150 or something. About to bring it back again. The right rear wheel looks funny for some reason. Top of the wheel (12 o'clock) looks to be pushed in more than the back left wheel. Could be from doing too many burnouts with the E brake up. <------ like in this picture.

I did the same thing. My tires are wearing on the inside pretty bad. The dealer says the car has a lot of negative camber for handling purposes and all gen2 speeds wear the same way. I then went to firestone and bought the lifetime alignment and had it aligned. They found nothing wrong with the alignment. The technician told me it was the camber and can not be adjsuted cuz the camber arms are not adjsutable. The solution is to buy a set for the rear and the front and adjust it to minimum camber within factory specs that way you get more life out of your tires without sacrificing handling. I will start with the rear ones for now. They are about $180 for the rear set.

Originally Posted by 9900rpm Nate, my MS3 has the same problem. Inside of the tires wear a lot worst than the rest. I ended up getting that Firestone lifetime alignment thing for $150 or something. About to bring it back again. The right rear wheel looks funny for some reason. Top of the wheel (12 o'clock) looks to be pushed in more than the back left wheel. Could be from doing too many burnouts with the E brake up. <------ like in this picture.

I did the same thing. My tires are wearing on the inside pretty bad. The dealer says the car has a lot of negative camber for handling purposes and all gen2 speeds wear in the same way. I then went to firestone and bought the lifetime alignment and had it aligned. They found nothing wrong with the alignment. The technician told me it was the camber and can not be adjsuted cuz the camber arms are not adjsutable. The solution is to buy a set for the rear and the front and adjust it to minimum camber within factory specs that way you get more life out of your tires without sacrificing handling. I will start with the rear ones for now. They are about $180 for the rear set.

[Nliiitend1]

What are your toe settings?

[FreeFlyFreak]

All you fuckers complaining of inside tire wear need to stop bitching and start going around corners faster.

48K miles, 1 blown engine, 3 sets of tires, 5 sets of struts/shocks, $1500 worth of speeding tickets, 0 alignments other than mk1 eyeball and shoving the camber to "max minus" with my hand........ Even tire wear, 'cept the odd front to rear rotation needed. Priceless.

Drive it like you stole it! ;-p and save your alignment money for tires, brakes and gas.

[duappleganger]

I'm noob with this shit but I read the whole thread and if I'm understanding it correctly it seems like toe in/out and negative camber by themselves are not necessarily bad but the spec values they are set to on this car combine to fuck things up.

I had the issue with inside tire wear mainly on my front wheels. Is the camber on the front wheels also set excessively negative? If that's the case Ill buy adjustable camber arms for front and rear.

[Nliiitend1]

Well first of all there are no "adjustable arms" for the front of the MS3. The only way to get true camber adjustment in the front is to install camber plates such as Kmacs or the new Corksport plates (some of the Taiwanese coilovers have camber plate options as well).

And no, most people only install camber adjustment parts for the front because thye're trying to add negative camber, not remove it.

I certainly wouldn't call the OEM camber values in the front on an MS3 overly aggressive.

[BLK_MS3]

Just rotated my tires at 22,500 miles. They are just about done on the insides. Sucks, as the middles have a decent amount of tread left. I say, 1000 more miles and that's it...came on fast.

[MS3G35]

18K on my stockers and they are shot...beyond shot. The fronts wore really bad on the outside of the tires and the rear wore really bad on the inside of the tires. The worst is the rear. Rotated the tires every 6k miles. Still plenty of tread in the middle of the tires. I'm in a bind because I can't afford new tires. I had to just put tires on the wife's car. Waiting for my W-2's to come in so I can get new tires and an alignment. Hope these can hold out till then.

[3mazdaspeed]

Just lowered the car with some BC's and put on some JBR camber arms which are not adjustable on the car, and I am searching all over Germany for a place that will do custom specs for my alignment. Found one place but it was like 100 EURO. Getting tired of the car pulling to the left. I still have my stockers also and they are still good at 25k miles except its probably because I have separate tires for winter.

[Scoobs]

Originally Posted by indianaryan I posted about this before, but I can't find it now. Don't know what happened to it. Here's a pic of my tires after 23,224 miles. When I had new tires put on and an alignment done (I got the lifetime alignment), The toe on the front left tire was 0.22 degrees and the front right tire was -0.23 degrees. Now they're at .10 and .09. According to Firestone the range is -.09 to .28. I thought it was a little strange that both front tires had so much wear on the inside edge, but both were completely opposite from each other.

These look like my front tires, I think most MS3 don't have the right alignment. I'm getting 2 new tires this summer, I'm killing the last 2 Dunlops this summer.

[SLOWHATCH]

@Nliiitend1

Can you point me to where I can find the proper cam bolts mentioned earlier in this thread?

Looks like these work but look different vs the typical cam bolts I've seen.

http://parts.arlingtonmazda.com/prod...252d66ZB).html

[Nliiitend1]

Specialty Products 81310 SPC Alignment Components for Ford Focus

*Disclaimer - I've never installed (nor been involved in the installation of) these bolts on an MS3 or Mazda 3. I had them on both of my Focuses, and never really had a problem with them. There is a thread somewhere here on MSF that was started by a guy that says he put them on his MS3. I have no reason to think they wouldn't work, seeing as how they replace the outer camber arm bolt (which is the same part on both the C170 Focus and C1-based MZ3/MS3).

[robry]

I went through the same thing at 9000miles with my local dealership, they claimed it was within specs from mazda and I drive like an asshole. needless to say I haven't been back since.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by robry I went through the same thing at 9000miles with my local dealership, they claimed it was within specs from mazda and I drive like an asshole. needless to say I haven't been back since.

I love it when car manufacturers tout the power and handling prowess of a car in all of their advertising / advertising literature, and then tell you shouldn't drive it hard. LOL.

[robry]

yeah at this point I will just replace the OE tires with new ones OR sell my kidney and buy a set of wheels like you have finkle

[SWAY]

Originally Posted by Scoobs These look like my front tires, I think most MS3 don't have the right alignment. I'm getting 2 new tires this summer, I'm killing the last 2 Dunlops this summer.

Im at 14k miles and mine are the exact same but im starting to show thread. Im fixing to order a set of wheels and go get realigned hopefully not to mazda specs either.

~ Sent from my GNexus running Cm9~