AccessPORT and AccessTUNER Beta Support for World Market Turbo Mazda3/6 + New PURE Boost OTS Maps!

[lilred]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Dammit I am the tl;dr king! Didn't you know that? Are you implying ms3blackmica is also guilty of this disease?

Shortest post ever? Lol

tapafuck

[ms3blackmica]

he said he wanted to focus on strictly speed and perfomrance and it was messing up some functions of the site

[yomyster67]

Anyone know why after switching to the new map I would get tons of low kr, and some spikes over 2.1? I have never had kr of anything but zero til this new map. Coincidence?

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by yomyster67 Anyone know why after switching to the new map I would get tons of low kr, and some spikes over 2.1? I have never had kr of anything but zero til this new map. Coincidence?

The reason is because you don't have a pro/e-tune.

[iammike]

I'm all for those trying to understand the OTS map. For some people, like me, who just recently got their MS3 and are still dumping on the mods, getting a custom tune from one of the forum guru's every time I change something just isn't feasible.

My plan is to wait until I get to a certain point then go for the custom tune. Until then, OTS it is for me.

[Tokay444]

Never seen kr?!? Do you not drive the car? At all?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by yomyster67 Anyone know why after switching to the new map I would get tons of low kr, and some spikes over 2.1? I have never had kr of anything but zero til this new map. Coincidence?

I'm speculating, but it may have to do with a lack of learned trims. It could also be that you weren't hitting boost targets in the past.

I haven't looked @ the new maps much, but hear that target afr's are also a bit more lean.

[ASHMS3]

They are, they target 11.6 AFR at WOT. I loaded one up to check it out, not horrible but my car hates a straight boost tune. I'm targeting 17.5 and getting spikes close to 20. Same thing when I tried to tune per Bucker's guide. My only fix was to lower load targets to achievable levels.

[yomyster67]

I'm almost to 100 miles on the new map and I'm going to do more logs.

For the pro tune comment, would it be worth it given the mods I have? See signature.

I'm almost to 100 miles on the new map and I'm going to do more logs.

For the pro tune comment, would it be worth it given the mods I have? See signature.

[ASHMS3]

Originally Posted by yomyster67 I'm almost to 100 miles on the new map and I'm going to do more logs. For the pro tune comment, would it be worth it given the mods I have? See signature. I'm almost to 100 miles on the new map and I'm going to do more logs. For the pro tune comment, would it be worth it given the mods I have? See signature.

Someone who knows how to tune is always going to be able to squeeze more out than OTS, but if you plan to mod further then I would wait. Most of the e-tuners offer tweaks to your tune if you get new parts for a fee. Example, PERM tune costs 200, but if you get a new part and need a tweak, the tweak is 50.

[yomyster67]

More parts soon lol

[minger]

Originally Posted by ASHMS3 They are, they target 11.6 AFR at WOT. I loaded one up to check it out, not horrible but my car hates a straight boost tune. I'm targeting 17.5 and getting spikes close to 20. Same thing when I tried to tune per Bucker's guide. My only fix was to lower load targets to achievable levels.

O.O

What does your WGDC look like?

[ASHMS3]

I am using the WGDC from my hybrid tune right now, I am starting from scratch to see if I can make straight boost tuning work for me. When I was trying to boost tune per Bucker's guide I had my WGDC down to around 35 in the spool up area(3-4k) and still logged around 60 until I lowered my load targets and gave up on boost tuning. I had zeroed out the underboost side of all my dynamics tables and no change.It was frustrating as hell. But, I found that if I lowered my requested load tables to around 1.85 I didn't get the massive spike. Like I said though I am going to give it another go and see if I have more luck this time. Because after the spike the boost curve is nice and flat. So maybe fucking with my WGDC will work this time.

[minger]

Originally Posted by ASHMS3 I am using the WGDC from my hybrid tune right now, I am starting from scratch to see if I can make straight boost tuning work for me. When I was trying to boost tune per Bucker's guide I had my WGDC down to around 35 in the spool up area(3-4k) and still logged around 60 until I lowered my load targets and gave up on boost tuning. I had zeroed out the underboost side of all my dynamics tables and no change.It was frustrating as hell. But, I found that if I lowered my requested load tables to around 1.85 I didn't get the massive spike. Like I said though I am going to give it another go and see if I have more luck this time. Because after the spike the boost curve is nice and flat. So maybe fucking with my WGDC will work this time.

Interesting. Figured it would be set up to add 10 or 15 to wgdc; mine handles that relatively well. It spikes then cuts?

[ASHMS3]

I took a mini log tonight of spool up and got fuel cut. Max boost of 19.72, I dropped my WGDC to 25% in the spool area and I will see what that does tomorrow. Right now it was around 60. If I don't get much boost in the spool area then I know it worked and can rework my WGDC tables to meet my targets.

[NCZ13]

Reinstalled my PG TIP, and flashed the stg1 cpe nano +TIH map.

Havent gone WOT, but I definitely noticed a difference in part throttle pulls.

Also noticed that on the OTS stg 1 intake 231 map, My idle wasnt raised anymore. But I believe my idle is back to the cobb raised 9xx

[MPS_Fan]

Originally Posted by ASHMS3 I took a mini log tonight of spool up and got fuel cut. Max boost of 19.72, I dropped my WGDC to 25% in the spool area and I will see what that does tomorrow. Right now it was around 60. If I don't get much boost in the spool area then I know it worked and can rework my WGDC tables to meet my targets.

Spool up area on stocker should be till 2500rpm, not from 3000-4000rpm!! you have to reduce WGDC in area before boost spike!
Please post your Ramp limiter and boost comp fine values. Also a screenshot of your WGDC map and a log would be fine.

[ASHMS3]

I dropped it from 2250 to 4K, if this doesn't stop the spike I know I am still being fucked with by load tables and will switch back to my hybrid tune.

[fortressofcomfort]

OK:

I tried the Stage2+SF+TIH 93 v231.ptm on my car.
Another member (who can remain anonymous if they want) loaded up the Stage1+CS+TIH v231.ptm

Driving impressions are no doubt that there is more power, smoothness, and response below turbo spoolup (<2500rpms). This was noted in both maps.

Also, on both maps the WGDC values are set ridiculously low. Both this member and I were hitting about 2psi under targeted from the midrange on up.

So for me, I plugged in my old v210 WGDC values (which are known good values and just a few % low) and put the boost ramp limiter - high limit to 15%. I am now hitting commanded boost everywhere with not a spike in sight.

For him, I did the SAME EXACT THING, but used the old % difference trick e.g. if he is getting 15.0psi @4000rpms with a 45% WGDC, and he should be getting 16.5psi, I do 16.5/15.0*45 = 50%. For him I ADDED a few % since I figured his BEC and boost error ramp limiter - high limit set at 20% were being maxed out already. He just confirmed to me that he is also now hitting commanded boost targets.

Of course I increased the ignition timing for him (baby steps, he's on stock CDFP and 16.5psi) and I from 2500rpms and up. I left the very low values at 2000rpms and below as it seems to really aid in reducing turbo lag (greater EGTs ?).

Some other small notes/changes made to both our v231 maps in the process:
- Cobb set the Fuel Commanded EQ Max Enrichment Allowed up from the old 9.085:1 to 11.0:1. This seems a bit out of whack so I set us both to 10.5:1 in this table ATB.
- Boost Targets are set at 18psi at 2,500rpms. I think this is too much so I lowered to 14psi.
- Ignition tables can be plugged right in from your old map but I recommend leaving the values <2,500rpms at OTS.
- I still applied the Knock Decay Rate A and B, Offset, and RPM(Max) from the ATR cheat sheet.
- Not a single change was needed to any load table now.
- Throttle DBW A, B, C: I still changed all the 80s to 90s.
- Wastegate Dynamics : BEC table... there is a zero value in the -0.15 cell. I changed it to 0.02
- Wastegate Dynamics : WG Duty Boost Error Ramp Limiter - High Limit changed from OTS (10%) to 15%
- Wastegate Tables : WG Duty Cycles were all very low in both our maps. As I pointed out a couple days ago, Cobb is maxing these values out at like 65% @ 6krpms which is too low. I took the WGDCs from my last known good map and used those. I like to leave the values in the WGDCs just a few (3-5%) under what I'm actually achieving in my logs. This allows for wintertime, less boost spikes, and allows the boost controller's fine tuning abilities to bring the WGDC up to where it needs to be.

I can report that my car is now driving better than ever. Initial VDs are promising, logs are solid, but most importantly, the car just feels more fun. The way Cobb is manipulating the closed loop values and changes to the throttle, part throttle areas, etc, all make the car feel more like a sports car rather than one that just puts a big spike of boost out there at 3,200rpms and then dies off until redline. It actually pulls good from 1,750rpms now, spools up with one linear push, and then as the rpm rise the power increase. Not sure how to explain it. Somehow it seems like torque doesn't just peak at 3,200 rpms anymore and drop like bad stock; it peaks at like 3,500rpms now and drops less quickly, making the car feel more like a little naturally aspirated V8 (with a whistle).

Again, this is not an endorsement of the new maps; I'm merely pointing out that Cobb made changes to them that I have yet to fully understand but that make the car drive noticeably better. If you are an OTS map user, or have a slightly tweaked OTS map, I would suggest downloading the new v231 version, applying you timing and WGDC values from your old map, and seeing what you think. Its free right?

[ms3blackmica]

fortressofcomfort

I thought i typed essays for days....damn!

You should just start your own tuning thread lol

[AndyT]

Ordered my AP which should be with me in a week, i've been here for a while now and learned a lot but i've never read anything on the AP as it wasn't available in the UK. Holy crap is there a lot to read!

I'll start with a stage 2 map but as i have a hybrid turbo (pretty much the same as a BNR1) i'll be trying to find out how to get the most out of it, any pointers to thread welcome.

Will hold off on a e-tune as i'm considering a BT in the near future. Still, i should be very busy at work next week reading up on the AP.

The UK maps are for 98 octane fuel, we don't have any of that, we only have 95, 97 or 99 and all the UK MPS people use 99 but i take it that won't really matter?

[fortressofcomfort]

None of the OTS maps are designed to work with anything but a K04.
But make some changes in ATR and voila you can easily get you stock ECU/boost controller to work with a hybrid/big turbo.
If I was you and haven't self-tuned on the K04 yet (fiddled with ATR), then I would seek out an e-tuner who has experience with alternative turbos.
There's nothing you can't learn in ATR but its a big step going to a different turbo.

[mrmonk7663]

I am questioning whether or not this "pure boost" is some kind of built in logic or the same stuff alot of us have been doing all along...ie zeroing out the load tables. As of right now, after looking over the maps, it appears exactly just that. Load tables have been zeroed and TRX tables have been increased to avoid them coming into play. If this is truly the case, then the "pure boost" is nothing more than marketing. I hope I am wrong and there is some kind of hidden logic that ATR is not revealing because after months and months of suggestions from this forum, and waiting patiently for a release, it appears on the surface that the only real change is to the load tuners advantage and then the addition of the worldwide market. SWAS is a HUGE issue. I fight it every single day. It is a feature that is extremely dangerous, jacks with your tune, causes inconsistency, and it would benefit the community as a whole if the Gen2 could have the SWAS turned off WHILE keeping full use of the power steering. I guess I"ll just have to wait longer

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 I am questioning whether or not this "pure boost" is some kind of built in logic or the same stuff alot of us have been doing all along...ie zeroing out the load tables. As of right now, after looking over the maps, it appears exactly just that. Load tables have been zeroed and TRX tables have been increased to avoid them coming into play. If this is truly the case, then the "pure boost" is nothing more than marketing. I hope I am wrong and there is some kind of hidden logic that ATR is not revealing because after months and months of suggestions from this forum, and waiting patiently for a release, it appears on the surface that the only real change is to the load tuners advantage and then the addition of the worldwide market. SWAS is a HUGE issue. I fight it every single day. It is a feature that is extremely dangerous, jacks with your tune, causes inconsistency, and it would benefit the community as a whole if the Gen2 could have the SWAS turned off WHILE keeping full use of the power steering. I guess I"ll just have to wait longer

It is just an official release thats all...

They marketed it as they "now have control over the wastegate" making us (i am guilty of it) think its some new logic implemented. It isn't

It's just the same method we on msf have been using for a pure boost tune by removing all LEC's and raising TRL tables up high to not let them interfere.

Its just an official release of "pure boost tune" OTS maps. They've just done the work of making it a pure boost tune from the start.

[fortressofcomfort]

True, "PURE BOOST" is marketing hype, but clearly on the map I was looking at there are differences on the closed loop side. For someone like me who started with a OTS map and applied "tweaks" (boost/timing/etc) on top of it, almost all on the open loop side, I see their closed loop changes to fueling and transition a welcome addition.

I'm sure you more hard core tuners have changed every value in every cell in every table. But I would have to believe that most of us other self-tuners try to make the LEAST amount of changes to an OTS map as possible to make it run like we want That being said, the new v231 maps are a better starting point and I'm not just talking about OL/WOT and load tables. Take the fueling tables for example; there is not a single fueling table Cobb didn't change for v231 and since I never messed around with the fueling values where calculated load < 1.25, I am happy to accept their new closed loop low load values. I pulled down 36mpg yesterday even with a bit of stop and go traffic, my highest ever on my 85 mile round trip to the Conowingo Dam. It could be coincidence, it might not be. But it would be somewhat hard to believe its coincidence.

[iammike]

My MPG seem to be trending higher as well with the untouched Stage 2 CS 93.


Sent from the Mars Curiosity Rover

[mrmonk7663]

fortressofcomfort For an OTS map it certainly gives the user a much nicer "Base" to build upon, and for someone who will always be OTS with only perhaps tweaking boost, the map is great and will help quite a bit. But for the tuners, like you said, not so much

[fredricktsang]

as a ots map though, it does feel smoother, but as others have said the whole boost thing isn't a revolutionary change. I have been just tweaking ots maps, little here and there with timing, fueling boost, so it's been a plus for me until I get the car to a point where I want to get it tuned.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 fortressofcomfort For an OTS map it certainly gives the user a much nicer "Base" to build upon, and for someone who will always be OTS with only perhaps tweaking boost, the map is great and will help quite a bit. But for the tuners, like you said, not so much

Bingo, this is what I'm trying to say (although it takes me 10 paragraphs to say what you said in 1 paragraph).

Users of straight OTS maps and users of OTS maps with a few changes to just a few tables should start using the v231 maps (based on what I'm seeing on both a stage1 Corksport map and a stage2 Cobb SF map, both 93 octane). I would go so far as to say to the crowd that makes just a small number of changes to the OTS map, to start fresh with a new v231 map and re-apply their tweaks where they make sense (for example, there is no reason anymore to adjust anything under the Load Tables or the Wastegate Dynamics Load Based stuff; they have been essentially turned off; also try leaving the Closed Loop tables at OTS as I think this lends the map to its more drivable, responsive, efficient operation). This way they will pick up on the number of improvements Cobb has made to the closed loop operation, low load fueling, low load ignition timing, low load DBW Throttle A/B/C, and other CL to OL transition points they made to these new maps (again I'm basing THESE changes on two particular maps I've seen; they are two very popular maps but nonetheless I am basing it on 2 maps out of hundreds).

Users of custom high-end tuner maps should not fret as there is nothing new FOR THEM in these new maps and probably little, if any, reason to change anything.

When writing essays, remember your audience lol.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by 12speed Ok so I'm a bit of a noob but I've been doing research. Unfortunally I didnt before i spend money. I got a Cobb SRI, TIP, TP and AP on their way. Now, I know I should be careful because I dont have internals. I saw that the TP can cause some boost issues. My question is, can I run this mods with a stage 1 or safe mode? OR should I stay away from the TP until I get internals?Thanks

Did anyone actually answer this question? I'll take a stab at it.

The reality is that any one of those hardware changes can cause you to exceed your CDFPs limits.

FOR THE MOST PART, the level you can push your car to, if the stock CDFP is the weak link, is based mostly on boost. Pushing Boost Targets and more importantly, the actual achieved boost level (from your logs), too high is the fastest way to reach your CDFPs limits.

Now that the APs default maps are the v231 maps, you will have no load targets to "save you" if you exceed the CDFPs capabilities. Fret not though because there are still a couple other safeguards in place so the chances of going ZZB are low if you are careful and methodical about your buildup.

In your case, I would go ahead and install all your new hardware. There's nothing magic about a test pipe except it can more readily cause boost spikes than the other hardware. But from my experience, as long as the stock DP and 3-way catalyst (first cat) are in place, boost spikes won't be affected much.

After installation of all your hardware (and yes removing the cross brace under the car in order to change out the test pipe is worth every minute and bloodied knuckle), I would load the Stage1+SF+TIH 93 v231.ptm map. Now cruise around at city speeds and less than half throttle for about 25 miles. You need to do this because you have to disconnect and remove the battery in order to install the TIH. Now get your logging setup in your AP and start with 3rd gear logs. Start small, say 2500rpms to 4500rpms. Then upload your log to your pc and check the HPFP actual values. If all looks good (1600+ psi through the run), then do another log from 2500rpms to 5500rpms. Check it. Finally do a full 2500rpm to 6500rpm run. Check it. If all looks good, redo the same three logs but this time in fourth gear (scout out the road first for cops, bumps, dips, and level-ness) and check your logs. When checking HPFP actual, be sure your boost is within what is commanded by no less than 0.5psi. Because if you aren't getting full boost (which many of us including myself are thinking the new v231 maps won't let you achieve) then you need to fix or live with that first.

If ALL of that looks good then you could try the Stage2+SF+TIH 93 v231.ptm but I can imagine for sure you will max out your stock CDFP. Those maps, for starters, run about 2 more psi and also nearly 100psi more injector pressure; both of these items alone will put you stock CDFP into crisis mode in a hurry.

It's all car dependent. There are Gen1s running your mod list on a stock CDFP without issue. Then, there are guys like me who, with only an intake, TIH, and AP set to stage1 threw their stock CDFP into crisis mode within 5 minutes of running. So we, on the other side of your computer monitor, just cannot say how hard you can push it.

So bottom line is twofold: put all your hardware on at once and tune slowly, and b) save up now for some high performance CDFP internals. My guess is you have a 50% chance of running a stage 1 map with those mods and having no CDFP issues but that doesn't mean it won't crap out shortly in a few thousand or even hundred miles.

If you find even the stage1 map is causing CDFP crisis then run safe mode, economy mode, or stage0, it really doesn't matter.

Hope this helps.

[12speed]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Did anyone actually answer this question? I'll take a stab at it. The reality is that any one of those hardware changes can cause you to exceed your CDFPs limits. FOR THE MOST PART, the level you can push your car to, if the stock CDFP is the weak link, is based mostly on boost. Pushing Boost Targets and more importantly, the actual achieved boost level (from your logs), too high is the fastest way to reach your CDFPs limits. Now that the APs default maps are the v231 maps, you will have no load targets to "save you" if you exceed the CDFPs capabilities. Fret not though because there are still a couple other safeguards in place so the chances of going ZZB are low if you are careful and methodical about your buildup. In your case, I would go ahead and install all your new hardware. There's nothing magic about a test pipe except it can more readily cause boost spikes than the other hardware. But from my experience, as long as the stock DP and 3-way catalyst (first cat) are in place, boost spikes won't be affected much. After installation of all your hardware (and yes removing the cross brace under the car in order to change out the test pipe is worth every minute and bloodied knuckle), I would load the Stage1+SF+TIH 93 v231.ptm map. Now cruise around at city speeds and less than half throttle for about 25 miles. You need to do this because you have to disconnect and remove the battery in order to install the TIH. Now get your logging setup in your AP and start with 3rd gear logs. Start small, say 2500rpms to 4500rpms. Then upload your log to your pc and check the HPFP actual values. If all looks good (1600+ psi through the run), then do another log from 2500rpms to 5500rpms. Check it. Finally do a full 2500rpm to 6500rpm run. Check it. If all looks good, redo the same three logs but this time in fourth gear (scout out the road first for cops, bumps, dips, and level-ness) and check your logs. When checking HPFP actual, be sure your boost is within what is commanded by no less than 0.5psi. Because if you aren't getting full boost (which many of us including myself are thinking the new v231 maps won't let you achieve) then you need to fix or live with that first. If ALL of that looks good then you could try the Stage2+SF+TIH 93 v231.ptm but I can imagine for sure you will max out your stock CDFP. Those maps, for starters, run about 2 more psi and also nearly 100psi more injector pressure; both of these items alone will put you stock CDFP into crisis mode in a hurry. It's all car dependent. There are Gen1s running your mod list on a stock CDFP without issue. Then, there are guys like me who, with only an intake, TIH, and AP set to stage1 threw their stock CDFP into crisis mode within 5 minutes of running. So we, on the other side of your computer monitor, just cannot say how hard you can push it. So bottom line is twofold: put all your hardware on at once and tune slowly, and b) save up now for some high performance CDFP internals. My guess is you have a 50% chance of running a stage 1 map with those mods and having no CDFP issues but that doesn't mean it won't crap out shortly in a few thousand or even hundred miles. If you find even the stage1 map is causing CDFP crisis then run safe mode, economy mode, or stage0, it really doesn't matter. Hope this helps.

That helps a lot man! Im already running the SRI and TIP I'm about to put the test pipe on later. I've had a busy weekend putting coilovers, wheels, intake and TIP. It seems to be running good and pulling much better, the AP comes in on Wednesday and I'll do just that. I would like to run stage 1 but if I max out the cdfp, safe mode will be.
Thanks for the help and I'll give some input when I do my logs on Wednesday.

[iammike]

Has anyone tried to contact Cobb directly to ask why they used such conservative WGDC tables? If not, I'm tempted to shoot them an email. I can't imagine they would just do something so left field without some kind of reason.

[Danwelford]

Originally Posted by AndyT Ordered my AP which should be with me in a week, i've been here for a while now and learned a lot but i've never read anything on the AP as it wasn't available in the UK. Holy crap is there a lot to read! I'll start with a stage 2 map but as i have a hybrid turbo (pretty much the same as a BNR1) i'll be trying to find out how to get the most out of it, any pointers to thread welcome. Will hold off on a e-tune as i'm considering a BT in the near future. Still, i should be very busy at work next week reading up on the AP. The UK maps are for 98 octane fuel, we don't have any of that, we only have 95, 97 or 99 and all the UK MPS people use 99 but i take it that won't really matter?

The only fuel I get in Whitby is 98ron so must be one of the only places in the UK

[dantes5823]

I'm gonna out my money on.... A) its a free map for you to use. B) its meant to work on a worst case scenario. C) they are just generic maps to get you started on until you get a real tune. D) these maps Arnt perfect so why are trying to ask for them to be?

[mrmonk7663]

Does anyone know the reasoning behind changing VVT at 5k rpms from 0 to 8 as Cobb did in the latest OTS maps?

[f-castrillo]

So I have been out of the loop lately, only posting in the "pics of your gen2" and "hot gf/wife" thread lol.

What's the general consensus to all us self-tuners as far as what the new AP/ATR updates bring? Is there anything for us who wish to stay on the hybrid boost/load target strategy?

[mrmonk7663]

Nothing new to self tuners...Cobb simply zeroed out the load tables, which is what many of us have been doing for a long time. TRX is populated to higher values. The biggest change I found for "self tuners" is the fact that 5-6th gears Cobb changed to a value of 1.0 instead of .95, and VVT at 5k is at 8...previously it was at 0. The VVT is what intrigues me, I am looking for the reasoning behind why they increased it to 8 at 5k...I don't know enough about VVT to know what the hell that does and if I should implement it to my map as well. They are many other changes but if you tune your own, then most likely they won't apply...Fueling...Cobb uses stoichiometric values longer than before...etc etc.

[warlord]

I just loaded one of the new v.231 maps. Looks like too much part throttle knock for just an OTS map. I've always had the expected .4-.7 at spool up (3100-3200 rpm's) but this new map has added knock in the 2k-3k range consistantly. I removed 1* timing in the affected areas and have lessened it but can't get it to go away completely. Never had knock in that rpm range. Why now with the new .v231 map?
datalog1-1 is before the timing reduction. Datalog1-2 is after removing 1*

[mrmonk7663]

They changed the fueling and now carry out the 14.7 AFR longer.

[warlord]

I'm running spicy tune fuel maps which are 14.679 at part throttle and 12.0 at wot. The ots v231 are 14.7/11.6. It doesn't help the knock is still there at part throttle from .5-1.0 load at 2k-3k. Between reducing timing and running a hair richer at part throttle the kr should be gone but it's not.