MS3G35's tuning adventure....hipnotic tune FTW

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Upgraded tmic may help with heat soak, but tbh, I would hit it with some meth if you want to put a dent in bat's. Meth will bring your bat's down to 10-30 degrees below ambient temp. With the mods you have, a tmic will not net you much power. Jamese242 hit the nail right on the head.

man idk about you guys but upgrading to my cp-e tmic was night and day....

i never actually logged mass airflow g/s with stock vs cp-e, but i can tell you this...my buddy and i in his z28 run all the time, and i had all the mods in my sig just with the stock intercooler, he would put about 5 car lenghts on me and was only continuing to pull. I was so pissed that i went home, grabbed my cp-e tmic, threw it on, and came back out ready to go (untuned for the tmic) and we were dead even.

The increase in airflow alone made a world of a difference.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica man idk about you guys but upgrading to my cp-e tmic was night and day.... i never actually logged mass airflow g/s with stock vs cp-e, but i can tell you this...my buddy and i in his z28 run all the time, and i had all the mods in my sig just with the stock intercooler, he would put about 5 car lenghts on me and was only continuing to pull. I was so pissed that i went home, grabbed my cp-e tmic, threw it on, and came back out ready to go (untuned for the tmic) and we were dead even. The increase in airflow alone made a world of a difference.

That may be a gen1 vs. gen2 difference as well. With the hood scoop on the gen2, the tmic is very efficient, albeit probably not as efficient as with an upgraded tmic, so your point is well taken.

If you were to spray a d03 / d05 nozzle and 100% meth over your current tune, your bat's would drop about 20-30 degrees below ambient temps and you could pick up even more additional power.

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 That may be a gen1 vs. gen2 difference as well. With the hood scoop on the gen2, the tmic is very efficient, albeit probably not as efficient as with an upgraded tmic, so your point is well taken. If you were to spray a d03 / d05 nozzle and 100% meth over your current tune, your bat's would drop about 20-30 degrees below ambient temps and you could pick up even more additional power.

well the truth is, the gen 1 TMIC has much room for improvement. It leaks a lot of air ! What i had done was take the ducting down, and completely seal it all the way around with some leftover RTV because it is actually 2 peices snapped together. When taking a compressor to it, air just gushes out inbetween where the 2 peices connect. This drove me nuts. Ever since completely sealing off the ducting, my BAT's are golden. Just as good as the pu's !

On average, i am 10~12° higher than ambient temp. I don't plan to spray any meth as its not in my plan to go that far. But as far as the difference goes, i gained at least 20 hp from swapping just the intercooler. I tried this comparisson twice. I was always getting spanked by 5+ cars with stocker, then dead even with the cp-e. It was one of the best mods i ever did. I was just surprised to see the comments about it only gaining ~5hp.

[rfinkle2]

You're experience is not what I typically see, but I don't doubt what you say in the least. I'm just glad to see any Mazdaspeed pick up power.

Have you tried running any e85? If you aren't interested in spraying meth, I'd say e85 is good for another 30 hp or so.

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 You're experience is not what I typically see, but I don't doubt what you say in the least. I'm just glad to see any Mazdaspeed pick up power. Have you tried running any e85? If you aren't interested in spraying meth, I'd say e85 is good for another 30 hp or so.

well thats very nice of you mr. finkle ! giving me motivation to go faster lol

I have not tried e85. I really don't plan on going that route. I am very very very happy with this car the way it is even right now.

i'm still on stock fp internals, and stock exhaust. The last two upgrades i really plan on doing are throwing on a CBE and fp internals and re-tuning at higher boost. I am confident that is going to yeild me being extremely happy !

I am a very interesting guy, i don't get bored easily !!! My car makes me happy every time i drive it even where its at right now

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 If it happens often, we can look into fixing it, but if it is intermittent, I wouldn't worry too much about it (but that is just me). If you are concerned, we can look into it, but I kinda like it when my car afterfires, LOL.

Nah it only did it once and I was like no shit lol

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica well the truth is, the gen 1 TMIC has much room for improvement. It leaks a lot of air ! What i had done was take the ducting down, and completely seal it all the way around with some leftover RTV because it is actually 2 peices snapped together. When taking a compressor to it, air just gushes out inbetween where the 2 peices connect. This drove me nuts. Ever since completely sealing off the ducting, my BAT's are golden. Just as good as the pu's ! On average, i am 10~12° higher than ambient temp. I don't plan to spray any meth as its not in my plan to go that far. But as far as the difference goes, i gained at least 20 hp from swapping just the intercooler. I tried this comparisson twice. I was always getting spanked by 5+ cars with stocker, then dead even with the cp-e. It was one of the best mods i ever did. I was just surprised to see the comments about it only gaining ~5hp.

Just an example for you. I ran daustin and we were dead even until upper 5th gear I would start to pull away on him and the only difference between us is I have DP and he has TMIC. My friend James jamesr242 had TMIC and DP and we ran and were dead even. So I don't think it's going to make a giant difference at this point. That's why I am focusing a little more on suspension work now and I'll pick up a TMIC later on when I have the free cash. rfinkle2 has been tuning the car amazingly without the TMIC. I am at or even over my goal and I couldn't be more happy! Although I was sad when that BMW M5 kicked my butt, but it's ok cause he had about 100 more hp then me.

[daustin]

Here's my input on the whole stock TMIC versus upgraded TMIC versus FMIC.

For Genone, FMIC is really the most beneficial way to go if you want to upgrade. The ducting under the hood really doesn't provide the most ideal air flow, and as ms3blackmica explained, the ducting leaks a lot of air. There is too much containment under the hood there for heat to soak the intercooler and not ventilate without constant movement of the vehicle. The design of the front bumper is also very open and supporting of air flow through the front end. The upgraded TMIC works so long as you can keep an ample flow of air going to it, but it isn't really ideal for making power.

For Genpu, upgrading the TMIC really provides the same benefits at going for FMIC unless you are going BT at some point or already are. The hood scoop allows for ample flow into the hood for the TMIC to cool effectively as well as it ventilates the heat well in low speed situations. It still heat soaks as any intercooler does, just not as drastically. There are also a lot of runner holes in the duct off of the hood scoop that allow some of that air to bypass the intercooler and ventilate the engine bay. I presume that will allow a bit of a drop in the ambient temperatures which do also directly affect your boost air temperatures.

I think going from stock TMIC to an upgraded TMIC provides different benefits other than just adding raw horsepower. For example, the upgraded TMIC will have a much more flow friendly design of the endtanks and the runners, allowing for a slightly quicker turbo spool and a much less restriction of flow from end to end. What this does in addition to opening up a little more horsepower is shift your powerband and change the path of the power and torque curves ever so slightly. Essentially, you are feeling the effect of the butt dyno when you do the upgrade to the intercooler, but the actual supporting numbers may not be as drastic as you might think.

A FMIC upgrade does provide a very similar upgrade, but you induce a little bit of turbo lag simply because you have more plumbing that the turbo needs to pressurize to boost targets. For the genpu, a FMIC is still very beneficial but it seems that it is not providing the added benefits that outweight just the TMIC upgrade on a K04. The bumper design just doesn't flow nearly as much air directly onto the majority of the intercooler core, thanks to that stupid open tooth smile the car so famously has.

TL;DR

Beating a dead horse in a pointless debate.

[08.5MS3]

I want my new map... :-(

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by 08.5MS3 I want my new map... :-(

Working on maps today.

[08.5MS3]

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica well the truth is, the gen 1 TMIC has much room for improvement. It leaks a lot of air ! What i had done was take the ducting down, and completely seal it all the way around with some leftover RTV because it is actually 2 peices snapped together. When taking a compressor to it, air just gushes out inbetween where the 2 peices connect. This drove me nuts. Ever since completely sealing off the ducting, my BAT's are golden. Just as good as the pu's !

What is this RTV you speak of? Seems like a relatively easy thing to do to direct more airflow over the IC.

[dantes5823]

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica well thats very nice of you mr. finkle ! giving me motivation to go faster lol I have not tried e85. I really don't plan on going that route. I am very very very happy with this car the way it is even right now. i'm still on stock fp internals, and stock exhaust. The last two upgrades i really plan on doing are throwing on a CBE and fp internals and re-tuning at higher boost. I am confident that is going to yeild me being extremely happy ! I am a very interesting guy, i don't get bored easily !!! My car makes me happy every time i drive it even where its at right now

You say that now my friend. But once voltron gets on the sauce youll be more inclined lol.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by 08.5MS3 What is this RTV you speak of? Seems like a relatively easy thing to do to direct more airflow over the IC.

RTV = room temperature vulcanization, fancy for liquid rubber that cures @ room temp.

[MS3G35]

rfinkle2 Can you add my camber arm mod I did yesterday to my tune?

[08.5MS3]

Originally Posted by MS3G35 rfinkle2 Can you add my camber arm mod I did yesterday to my tune?

Which one did you install?

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by 08.5MS3 Which one did you install?

I needed rear cambers since my car is slammed. Looks much better now.

[08.5MS3]

Originally Posted by MS3G35 I needed rear cambers since my car is slammed. Looks much better now.

I understand. What brand did you end up going with?

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by 08.5MS3 I understand. What brand did you end up going with?

they are eibach but they are actually SPC's I opened the box and they say SPC all over the arms.

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by MS3G35 Just an example for you. I ran daustin and we were dead even until upper 5th gear I would start to pull away on him and the only difference between us is I have DP and he has TMIC. My friend James jamesr242 had TMIC and DP and we ran and were dead even. So I don't think it's going to make a giant difference at this point. That's why I am focusing a little more on suspension work now and I'll pick up a TMIC later on when I have the free cash. rfinkle2 has been tuning the car amazingly without the TMIC. I am at or even over my goal and I couldn't be more happy! Although I was sad when that BMW M5 kicked my butt, but it's ok cause he had about 100 more hp then me.

well every car is surely different. My car just went ape shit when the intercooler went on. I would love to put the stock one back one and take a log. Maybe i will lol

Originally Posted by daustin Beating a dead horse in a pointless debate.

everything you said is accurate for sure. I had my reasons for going tmic over fmic which there is no need to explain because it could be debated for years lol but all in all, it was a great upgrade !!

Originally Posted by dantes5823 You say that now my friend. But once voltron gets on the sauce youll be more inclined lol.

lol you are so right ! and i cant wait !!!!

[MS3G35]

Been kinda slow this week. I was busy Monday and Tuesday and last night once I got home from work I just vegged out on the couch. Maybe tonight I can get some logs it's been to long since I have logged.
Hopefully tomorrow I will be picking up a JBR RSB. Then over the weekend I need to get the car inspected and aligned.

[dastpe]

your lack of updating is unnacceptable.

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by dastpe your lack of updating is unnacceptable.

I totally agree lol

[MS3G35]

Rained last night and into today so no logs yet. This evening I am going to go look at a JBR RSB a local guy has for sale. Might pick that up and I might be able to log tonight. Then tomorrow I am detailing the car before daustin cookout. Maybe we can get some good pics tomorrow?

[daustin]

You can always do that at my place too. Up to you since you will probably have the ball and chain on your heels.

[MS3G35]

rfinkle2
Car seems sluggish. Got 3 new maps. We did a VD graph at daustin 's place and I was showing at like 245hpish. I can't seem to reproduce those numbers on my own VD but they are still showing in the 250 range.
As far as I can tell my data logs look great so not sure why this newer map is making the car feel this way. I am also puffing a lot more black smoke while on it. But I know that's just the richer fuel I am running up top.

[rfinkle2]

Boost is a bit low. I'm starting to wonder about the latest version of VD, given I have tried to look @ a few logs in my copy and gotten different #'s too.

BTW, not my intention to make excuses, I just remember your latest map having higher boost / load targets.


This is from the latest map I sent you?

Forgive me, but what DP did you recently install?

[08.5MS3]

Latest VD sucks! The 3 logs I sent you had very skewed curves and I was at around 250-336 HP. Quite the variance.

I believe he has a cp-e catted pipe!

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Boost is a bit low. I'm starting to wonder about the latest version of VD, given I have tried to look @ a few logs in my copy and gotten different #'s too. BTW, not my intention to make excuses, I just remember your latest map having higher boost / load targets. This is from the latest map I sent you? Forgive me, but what DP did you recently install?

Yeah I have the catted DP and this is the latest map you sent me. Maybe I am just getting use to the car and that's why I feel that way about it.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MS3G35 Yeah I have the catted DP and this is the latest map you sent me. Maybe I am just getting use to the car and that's why I feel that way about it.

I'm going to get your boost back up to targets.

I'll have something for you tomorrow am Chris.

Same for you Jason.

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I'm going to get your boost back up to targets. I'll have something for you tomorrow am Chris. Same for you Jason.

Thanks Rob! I was talking to Doug and he said that the WGDC's seemed kinda high but that could just be the difference between the 12's and the 10/11's I thought.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MS3G35 Thanks Rob! I was talking to Doug and he said that the WGDC's seemed kinda high but that could just be the difference between the 12's and the 10/11's I thought.

There is a definite difference in the amount of wgdc needed to make the equivalent boost levels on the 2010's vs the '11's and '12's.

[daustin]

That makes sense. I was looking over his logs from when he ran out quick during the cookout at my place and we put them onto my laptop and looked over them. I was looking at the WGDC numbers and the boost numbers. It seemed like that WDGC values were staying pretty high and the boost was running just under target for the most part. Other than that, everything looked pretty good. Again though, I hadn't made the thought connection that tuning the '10, '11, and '12 made such differences to try and hold boost targets.

[rfinkle2]

My car is the same way (2010 / boo / hiss)

I have a catless 2012 that I'm working with and am running wgdc in the 20's on his car and hitting 20 psi.

[daustin]

That's interesting that the differences are so substantial and that it seems to be heavily based on the wastegate. To be completely honest, I still haven't flashed that latest map on my car. Everything has been so busy and I'm thinking I might finally do that today at some point.

I'm just loving the Subaru-like sound of my UR exhaust and the little pops between shifts. I think Chris wants one even more now.

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 My car is the same way (2010 / boo / hiss) I have a catless 2012 that I'm working with and am running wgdc in the 20's on his car and hitting 20 psi.

well won't matter much longer for you right?

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by MS3G35 well won't matter much longer for you right?

No. The k04 is going coming out next weekend. If I can make ~350 whp and ~350 wtq across the entire powerband, I'll be very happy.

It should be doable very easily with the gtx2867.

I'd like to make that tq @ 3000 and have 350 hp on tap to 6500 rpm.

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 No. The k04 is going coming out next weekend. If I can make ~350 whp and ~350 wtq across the entire powerband, I'll be very happy. It should be doable very easily with the gtx2867. I'd like to make that tq @ 3000 and have 350 hp on tap to 6500 rpm.

I'm excited to see how it goes not to many people run that turbo. I was thinking of going with the gtx3076r down the line but that won't be for awhile yet.

[daustin]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 No. The k04 is going coming out next weekend. If I can make ~350 whp and ~350 wtq across the entire powerband, I'll be very happy. It should be doable very easily with the gtx2867. I'd like to make that tq @ 3000 and have 350 hp on tap to 6500 rpm.

If you still want a hand at all I might be able to squeeze some time out of my schedule. Let me know when and how you plan to do everything.

[MS3G35]

Originally Posted by daustin If you still want a hand at all I might be able to squeeze some time out of my schedule. Let me know when and how you plan to do everything.

Yeah man, you have done a ton for us so just let us know and we can help if you need it!

[rfinkle2]

I think I should be OK, but appreciate that offer big time. I think NJSPEED3 is going to help me and have done a ton of pre-planning in the hopes of the smoothest install possible.

Again, it means a ton to have you offer your time though (both of you guys).