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 Old 09-13-2011, 06:59 AM   #1
 
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Default Post-spool lean condition

Please help. Wacky AFRs

The above is my example of this issue I would like to have addressed. I have a lean spot post-spool up that cannot be influenced by the ATR maps. It is consistently a 13.44 AFR that my car hits for .5 second +- a little bit. I currently target 12.4 AFR, so that is a fairly large disparity.

In an attempt to remedy this, I did try several things with no positive results.

Electronically I altered the MAF curve in the affected area which did nothing to cure it. I also ensured all of my fuel tables were targeting the proper AFR, which they are. My LTFT learning zones max at 150 g/s, and my OL/CL transition happens at 1.25 Load. The shifting tables also seemed to have no effect on this condition.

I also physically inspected and cleaned the MAF and just replaced the MAP with a 3 BAR sensor as well as ensuring every hose clamp is properly tightened and is not leaking.
At this point, it is not necessarily a safety issue, but it is a concern to me. I want to have a spot on AFR curve and to be able to provide one for those that I have helped on their tuning adventures. As of now, I cannot provide this. Please help!

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Last edited by Bucker; 09-13-2011 at 07:40 AM.
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 Old 09-13-2011, 01:05 PM   #2
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I've seen it many times before, and have yet to find a solution. It's not on every car, but only a few. My guess is there's even more fueling tables to be discovered.

Good thread. I have some logs and maps i can post up to help show the issue if needed.
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 Old 09-13-2011, 01:09 PM   #3
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@Bucker keep trying. This is only your 789th thread about your fail tuning. We get it. You're a fail tuner.





































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 Old 09-13-2011, 01:17 PM   #4
 
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had the same issue....maf curve did nothing. wasnt getting any knock either, but i just lowered my target afr from 2500-3500. pretty must just a band aid and it keeps the spike under 12 afr vs 12.5
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 Old 09-14-2011, 06:39 PM   #5
 
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As more supporting information, here are 2 logs I just took. 13.44 AFR is the peak, then it makes its way back to targets.
Attached Files
File Type: csv datalog1.csv (16.7 KB, 39 views)
File Type: csv datalog2.csv (10.9 KB, 5 views)
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 Old 09-14-2011, 06:59 PM   #6
 
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virtual dyno chart
datalog1 = red
datalog2 = blue

virtual dyno correction factor = 0
smoothing factor = 6

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 Old 09-14-2011, 07:07 PM   #7
 
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Lol, @phate

Proves my point about the AFR's though.
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 Old 09-14-2011, 07:53 PM   #8
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i've seen some lean shift but no where near that bad and it is typically IN the spool range.

that looks like some old skool CL exit hang shit.

BTW mention isn't notifying me...guess I need to turn that on in user CP.
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 Old 09-14-2011, 08:20 PM   #9
 
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i just posted about this in the BT 101 thread


Originally Posted by bmorrisj View Post
ok what was the trick to have AFR drop a little faster.. im targeting ~12.1 - 12.2 ... when i hit it (you know 3rd gear around 3k) my AFRs hang around 13.3~13.5 but after a shift it hangs on normally.... but damn i see 2.4 calc load on there!

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 Old 09-14-2011, 08:35 PM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by bmorrisj View Post
i just posted about this in the BT 101 thread
Sucks to see that I am not the only one... 13.44 is not a health WOT and peak load AFR... meh. Hopefully @Cobb Tuning can do something about it.
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 Old 09-14-2011, 09:13 PM   #11
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What do your CL Max throttle tbls look like.?


Tappin
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 Old 09-14-2011, 09:15 PM   #12
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I've tried CL exit delays of 0 and 1, 40, and 80, and 100..... and i even think 150. None made any difference. I've tried CL throttles of 50, 70, and 100.... and i've tried various loads. Again, not many did much.

I think i suggested that Bucker try lowering the max CL break points to 150 (all of the max values), instead of the normal 200.... and i don't think this helped either.


I don't think its a sensor issue either... just some yet-to-be-known logic in the ecu.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 05:37 AM   #13
 
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I actually use all of the LTFT break points and the highest is at 150. All CL max throttles are 100, CL max load is 1.10, CL exit delays are 10/20/20.

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 Old 09-15-2011, 06:52 AM   #14
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you are running E correct? Did it do this on petrol? The cars I am seeing only lean up from say 11.8 to 12.2 maybe 12.4 for only one or two cells and are on 91-93. Perhaps the E is magnifying the leanness due to the different stoich ratio and this is a clue as to what the ECU is targeting.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 07:56 AM   #15
 
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
you are running E correct? Did it do this on petrol? The cars I am seeing only lean up from say 11.8 to 12.2 maybe 12.4 for only one or two cells and are on 91-93. Perhaps the E is magnifying the leanness due to the different stoich ratio and this is a clue as to what the ECU is targeting.
Yeah, I have an e85 mix and that's definitely possible. It did NOT do this until about 2 weeks ago when my ECU got bricked and then reset by Cobb to "factory".

EDIT:
The only other change that happened was the ATR update from the BETA ATR we were using.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 08:24 AM   #16
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Man, ask Cobb about the possibility of my ECU theory being possible. That dealer flashes can alter the logic enough to cause this and now you have an "ass shipped" ECU and not one that has been dealer updated.

IDK how Cobb restores the ECUs but this could be a possibility.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 08:32 AM   #17
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Bucker, have you tried a different MAF sensor?
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 Old 09-15-2011, 08:43 AM   #18
 
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
Man, ask Cobb about the possibility of my ECU theory being possible. That dealer flashes can alter the logic enough to cause this and now you have an "ass shipped" ECU and not one that has been dealer updated.

IDK how Cobb restores the ECUs but this could be a possibility.
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You very friendly with any local dealers? It would be very interesting to see if you could get the dealer to flash the lastest and greatest FW they have, load up the same map you are having problems with and see what the result is.

I know that back when I first got the AP, I started out by loading up the "stock" installed, so basically the lastest "stock" flash that Cobb had at the time. I noticed immediately that the car was running a little different that what it was doing before on the truly stock tune. I also know that the previous owner had been to the dealer for updated ECU flashes at least once before I bought it....

@Dano there are quite a few instances that I can think of that support your dealer flash theory.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 09:17 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by BigjohnB20 View Post


@Dano there are quite a few instances that I can think of that support your dealer flash theory.
indeed...I can think of about 5 over the years that support it.

different load caps for different year/flashed ECUs for example.

different CL exit hangs on cars post shift

different lean condition after FFS shifts

the list goes on and it was always dismissed as "oh different setups are different" which is true to a point but I think the dealer flashes could very well have at least some effect on the above situations.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 10:15 AM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Bucker, have you tried a different MAF sensor?
Nope. I really don't think its sensor related though, but I did clean my MAF for the hell of it. No change.

Originally Posted by BigjohnB20 View Post
@Bucker
You very friendly with any local dealers? It would be very interesting to see if you could get the dealer to flash the lastest and greatest FW they have, load up the same map you are having problems with and see what the result is.

I know that back when I first got the AP, I started out by loading up the "stock" installed, so basically the lastest "stock" flash that Cobb had at the time. I noticed immediately that the car was running a little different that what it was doing before on the truly stock tune. I also know that the previous owner had been to the dealer for updated ECU flashes at least once before I bought it....

@Dano there are quite a few instances that I can think of that support your dealer flash theory.
not very friendly, but I want to try and get it in there for that... No idea when I can make it happen though.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 10:22 AM   #21
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rebrick the ecu
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 Old 09-15-2011, 10:24 AM   #22
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Before you get too wrapped up about this, log inj PW. This can give you a good idea of how the ECU commands fueling.

Remember there is a lag between inj PW and AFR being read by the O2.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 11:43 AM   #23
 
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Why don't u try monitoring Long term and short term fuel trims as well, if your car is in open loop they should zero out, if they r correcting then It's still in closed loop and hopefully that will lead u in the right direction.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 11:45 AM   #24
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You are probably correct it is not sensor related, but swapping it out with a known good piece will eliminate one more variable
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 Old 09-15-2011, 11:53 AM   #25
 
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Before you get too wrapped up about this, log inj PW. This can give you a good idea of how the ECU commands fueling.

Remember there is a lag between inj PW and AFR being read by the O2.
Attached. Doesn't seem too crazy although the spike was not as severe this time.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 11:55 AM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by kmac View Post
Why don't u try monitoring Long term and short term fuel trims as well, if your car is in open loop they should zero out, if they r correcting then It's still in closed loop and hopefully that will lead u in the right direction.
It is in OL. I have LTLFTs in all of my logs, and the hit 0 right around where they should.

Originally Posted by phate View Post
You are probably correct it is not sensor related, but swapping it out with a known good piece will eliminate one more variable
Good point. I dont have any other speeds that are local and active on here though.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 11:55 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by kmac View Post
Why don't u try monitoring Long term and short term fuel trims as well, if your car is in open loop they should zero out, if they r correcting then It's still in closed loop and hopefully that will lead u in the right direction.
he has his LTFT breakpoint set to 150 g/s so it will trim in OL to a point. But to be that lean seems to be something else...he would have to go in to OL with a +8% LTFT IIRC target of 12.4 13.5\12.4 = 1.08

interesting thing though in the logs his LTFT is zero from 32 g/s all the way up ...I doubt very seriously his MAF is THAT dialed in. hum...

What does that point to?? ECU is the only hardware that was changed but then he flashed with his old map.

@Bucker

did you ever rebuild your map from a new base map. moving maps forward through all the changes and cobb revisions can def corrupt it. I have seen it first hand with my maps.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:03 PM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
he has his LTFT breakpoint set to 150 g/s so it will trim in OL to a point. But to be that lean seems to be something else...he would have to go in to OL with a +8% LTFT IIRC target of 12.4 13.5\12.4 = 1.08

interesting thing though in the logs his LTFT is zero from 32 g/s all the way up ...I doubt very seriously his MAF is THAT dialed in. hum...

What does that point to?? ECU is the only hardware that was changed but then he flashed with his old map.

@Bucker

did you ever rebuild your map from a new base map. moving maps forward through all the changes and cobb revisions can def corrupt it. I have seen it first hand with my maps.
Yessir, I sure did after you (I think) suggested it before. Sadly, there was no happy result .
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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:08 PM   #29
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haha yes I suggested it...

so the facts in evidence:

car was fueling correctly at ~12.4 on the same E mix
Then flash went bad and ECU was bricked
Cobb worked magic on same ECU and sent it back
now car starts to fuel correctly then gives up.


well then I am firmly planted in the ECU is the difference camp and back to my "dealer flash" theory.

unless you developed a leak pre turbo and as airflow increases you get leaner.

When you removed the ECU did you thrash your TIP or intake in disgust? or perhaps pull the vacuum port from your BC out of the TIP?
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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:20 PM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
haha yes I suggested it...

so the facts in evidence:

car was fueling correctly at ~12.4 on the same E mix
Then flash went bad and ECU was bricked
Cobb worked magic on same ECU and sent it back
now car starts to fuel correctly then gives up.


well then I am firmly planted in the ECU is the difference camp and back to my "dealer flash" theory.

unless you developed a leak pre turbo and as airflow increases you get leaner.

When you removed the ECU did you thrash your TIP or intake in disgust? or perhaps pull the vacuum port from your BC out of the TIP?
Haha absolutely not. Since this started I have pulled the TIP, Intake, TMIC, Throttlebody, etc. No change. Ill try to get to my dealer next week, but it isnt likely to happen.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:27 PM   #31
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Can I put my bid in for MAF sensor/calibration issue?
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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:29 PM   #32
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You can.... but if his issue is the same i saw, it doesn't helped. I intentionally recal'd the maf so that the fuel trims were pulling like 5% before switching to OL, and nada.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:35 PM   #33
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The airflow in that region looks a little turbulent, and I'm only looking at one log, but the airflow is slightly lower than what I think it should look like. But where it goes turbulent is where you have AFR variation (both lean and rich).

Looking at one log is not conclusive, by any means, but it is suspect.

PS - I still agree the ecu does funny things, we've all seen it, and I could be wrong here
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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:36 PM   #34
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working on a tune now where I have added 6% to the maf and the AF hasn't changed one bit...still remains at 12.2 and I am commanding 11.9. it just won't budge but it is only for 1 second then it falls to target...this is in the spool range 3.7-4.0 vt on a KO4 car.

it was 2% lean so I added 2% = no change
I added another 2% same VT range = no change
added another 2% = nadda

clutch/in out tables to 1.0 = nadda


I gave up since it isn't that bad but bucker needs to do something with those 13.5s and so does bmorris.

edit: I wish I knew WHAT they needed to do LOL
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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:43 PM   #35
 
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in my case how would you explain my afrs going back to normal after shifting?


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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:52 PM   #36
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Can I put my bid in for MAF sensor/calibration issue?
Like @Dano said, I have thrown up to 10% correction on the MAF table with no impact at all in that range.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 12:56 PM   #37
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And it always goes to 13.44, or it just goes lean, in general?

If this is the case, we are effectively saying there is not just a fueling table we don't have access to, but there is a MAF table/MAF modifier/MAF something which we don't have access to...

Edit: I'm a little slow today...maybe this is what you guys were thinking, anway?
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 Old 09-15-2011, 01:20 PM   #38
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
And it always goes to 13.44, or it just goes lean, in general?

If this is the case, we are effectively saying there is not just a fueling table we don't have access to, but there is a MAF table/MAF modifier/MAF something which we don't have access to...

Edit: I'm a little slow today...maybe this is what you guys were thinking, anway?
Yes lol, you are with us now It goes lean in general, but 13.44 is right about the point it peaks at then it settles right back to target. Its bananas. Good think I am sticking with the eth mix, I think, lol.
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 Old 09-15-2011, 01:23 PM   #39
 
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or 13.4 is fine and we're pansies with our 12.4 targets


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 Old 09-15-2011, 01:25 PM   #40
 
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Originally Posted by bmorrisj View Post
or 13.4 is fine and we're pansies with our 12.4 targets


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Honestly, I believe that it is but I don't think there are any gains to really be made by running at that AFR. I would think it would increase BATs unnecessarily. As far as your stuff is concerned, it looks like it is stuck in closed loop. Have you tried to adjust the shifting tables at all yet? Also, what is your final LTFT break point at?
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