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 Old 02-21-2012, 03:21 PM   #201
 
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I am a fan of the clutch in/out tables.

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 Old 02-23-2012, 05:52 AM   #202
 
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Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
Did it only happen on your first logs? I'm thinking it has something to do with the engine not being up to temp or the o2 sensor needs to be a certain temp


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I wanted to follow up on this. I've noticed that these lean spike are only happening when ECT is below 180*F....I feel like i'm on to something but thats all I have for now.

Maybe there are ECT fueling comp tables that need to be uncovered?


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 Old 02-23-2012, 06:35 AM   #203
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interesting....more data needed but unfortunately no one logs ECT lol. If you are having the issue its time to add that to the list.
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 Old 02-23-2012, 07:39 AM   #204
 
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
interesting....more data needed but unfortunately no one logs ECT lol. If you are having the issue its time to add that to the list.
@Bucker can you please start logging ECT and let me know if your seeing the same thing.
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 Old 02-23-2012, 08:29 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Dano View Post
interesting....more data needed but unfortunately no one logs ECT lol. If you are having the issue its time to add that to the list.
ECT should really be logged in order to ensure consistency. A cool engine will almost always produce more power, and may prevent knock.

In terms of fueling, cars typically run richer as the ECT cold start enrichment increases as coolant temp gets colder (due to poor atomization of fuel when cold). The DI engines don't seem to be affected by this, quite as much with gas [but with full E85 they do!!!].
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 Old 04-13-2012, 01:47 PM   #206
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So I am now getting this on a gen 1 I am tuning (08 ecu with 2011 motor). His maf is caled (even tried adding more fuel in the spot)

As the turbo spools and at max boost, it will run an afr in the mid 12's, and then drop down to my commanded of 11.83 and hold that the rest of the way, even post shift he has no afr issues.

So, what was the final verdict on fixing this?
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 Old 05-01-2012, 11:27 AM   #207
 
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@G26 is this with regular pump or e85? @atvfreek and I are also having this same problem.

I also have an 08. Afr's were fine on pump, now this is happening once we threw in a couple gallons of e85.
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 Old 05-01-2012, 11:41 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by ckMS3 View Post
@G26 is this with regular pump or e85? @atvfreek and I are also having this same problem.

I also have an 08. Afr's were fine on pump, now this is happening once we threw in a couple gallons of e85.
This is/was happening on straight 93 oct, and it wasn't every log either.
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 Old 05-01-2012, 11:49 AM   #209
 
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This has only happened on @ckMS3's car with e85, it was perfect with 93.

@Bucker did you figure out what your issue ended up being. There is still a couple things I want to try, but we've changed CL transitions, breakpoints and tried scaling the maf with no luck so far.
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 Old 05-01-2012, 12:03 PM   #210
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I'm 99% sure there are phantom trims at work during what we call "open loop", just not the standard STFT / LTFT we're used to.

Here's two logs from when i was doing some 5th port testing on my ms3. Both logs were taken with the EXACT same tune on the car. I never flashed a map. That tune would put me roughly around high to mid 11's with a regular 3 gal e85 mix and no aux fuel.




Now here's a log (again, on the exact same tune), with 1000 cc/min 5th port injector spraying... and cutting off in the higher rpms (this is before i added a pull down resistor to my trigger line on the box. Aux fueling would suddenly shut off due to a garbled trigger signal). Look at the AFR it leans out to when the aux fueling suddenly shuts off.....





Also note how the AFRs during the aux fueling pull weren't appreciably lower than without it.


Why would the AFR lean out to mid 12's when the aux fueling cut off, when i'm running a tune that hits and holds mid 11's without aux fueling? Unless there are trims at play, which i'm now fairly certain there is.





So, with that all said, i think some of the post spool lean issues can be attributed to the maf cal being slightly lean, and relying on the phantom trim to pull it down. I think that, in conjunction with valve over lap (while pressure in int mani >> pressure in exh mani) passing fresh, unburnt oxygen into the exhaust can explain the whole issue.
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 Old 05-01-2012, 12:07 PM   #211
 
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^ what he said lol. Good info, I love this forum.
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 Old 05-01-2012, 12:14 PM   #212
 
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I definitely have to agree there is some phantom stuff going on. Next step is to go old school and make the whole curve rich and see what happens. Lol
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 Old 05-01-2012, 12:15 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by atvfreek View Post
I definitely have to agree there is some phantom stuff going on. Next step is to go old school and make the whole curve rich and see what happens. Lol
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 Old 05-01-2012, 12:27 PM   #214
 
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Just to keep this alive, when I spray nitrous I get pretty significantly different AFR readings sometimes. I know bottle pressure, etc. can play a part but if I have been driving the car on a nitrous tune without spraying for awhile then spray I get leaner AFRs that if I have been spraying a lot.
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Open loop trimming is almost certainly going on.

I've shifted my curve 10% and still hit wot targets.

The same goes for adding UP TO 2.5 gallons of e85 before shit goes haywire (within the open loop trim threshold?).

The gen1 cars are way more sensitive to whatever phantom trimming is going on than gen2 cars.

side note: I like the word phantom.
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 Old 05-01-2012, 01:21 PM   #216
 
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i started going through this thread again and was about to post a question and all these new posts were here when I refreshed haha.
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 Old 05-01-2012, 03:34 PM   #217
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I can also adjust my maf curve, and my wot afr is always perfectly dead on commanded. Hopefully this trimming doesn't decide to just do what it wants lol, that could mean bad news.
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 Old 05-01-2012, 07:44 PM   #218
 
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I can confirm this open loop trip delima
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 Old 02-08-2013, 04:29 AM   #219
 
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Reviving this thread for further info. Was anything else uncovered in regards to post spool lean conditions?
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 Old 02-09-2013, 08:40 AM   #220
 
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I've uncovered a post spool lean condition in 1st and 2nd gears only. All other gears hit target 11.8 consistently. mid 13's in the first two gears. Currently tightening up the maf cal. Anyone have any other ideas?
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 Old 02-12-2013, 11:17 AM   #221
 
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Originally Posted by Mistersix View Post
I've uncovered a post spool lean condition in 1st and 2nd gears only. All other gears hit target 11.8 consistently. mid 13's in the first two gears. Currently tightening up the maf cal. Anyone have any other ideas?
Try ramping up boost slower. This will reduce the load/shock on your engine and allow your fueling to adjust.
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 Old 02-13-2013, 04:09 AM   #222
 
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Via WGDC? I have a TR-8 with 2.5" piping on the K04 so spool is pretty tame already. It does ramp up fast in first and second though.

Or do you mean physically with my throttle input? I was just mashing the throttle in that log as i wanted to see what the loads were.
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 Old 02-13-2013, 05:39 AM   #223
 
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Originally Posted by Mistersix View Post
Via WGDC? I have a TR-8 with 2.5" piping on the K04 so spool is pretty tame already. It does ramp up fast in first and second though.

Or do you mean physically with my throttle input? I was just mashing the throttle in that log as i wanted to see what the loads were.
2.5" piping won't really slow the ko4's spool....i'm running the same size

yeah...regulate that shit via wgdc, load targets and/or boost targets. I always target about 16 psi @ 3k rpm and horizontally interpolate down to 500 rpm (when boost tuning). Load tuning is of course a different story.
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 Old 02-14-2013, 03:09 AM   #224
 
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I'm currently load tuning. I developed a boost tune and ran it for the last year and it did well. Made decent numbers on a stingy mustang dyno and dropped my 0-60 to a 4.8 but i wanted to try my hand at load tuning so i started over. This uncovered the lean 1st and second.

My load targets are already pretty conservative in 1st and 2nd from 3k and down. Its worth a shot though.

And for what its worth. My fmic set up definitely effected spool. Granted i only really notice it when i datalog and got WOT at about 2.7k I can feel and see in the log that it takes longer to reach full boost. But when ripping threw gears it feels about the same as the tmic as far as lag goes.
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 Old 03-20-2013, 05:01 AM   #225
 
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Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
Try ramping up boost slower. This will reduce the load/shock on your engine and allow your fueling to adjust.
So i tried this and no difference. I'm still trying to figure this out. When i do WOT pull for a datalog afr's hit fine. It does its little lean dance when ever in any gear and just getting on a bit. Even in 6th on the highway. I've been watching it and what happens is as soon as it transitions into open loop it hits targeted for a split second, (11.8) then goes lean by about .8-1.0 then settles back down to targeted.

This has me spooked everytime i get on it, even just a little, like merging. When your getting into the throttle for moderate load and moderate boost but your only in each gear for a second or two the afr's are in the mid 12's because there's no time for them to settle before you shift. 1st and 2nd gear are even worse, going into the 13's!

To avoid damage i'm targeting 11.0 to be safe. Its still does the same thing but it only leans out to 11.8-12 now. VD show the same hp/tq as we know afr doesn't effect output to much.

Does anybody have any insight? The wot log below was the newly flashed 11.0 afr map but doesn't show the lean thing. I'll get one to post today. FWIW, i have pretty much all the bolt ons including a 3bar map sensor, fp internals and all the breather mods.
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 Old 03-25-2013, 06:50 AM   #226
 
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Originally Posted by Mistersix View Post
So i tried this and no difference. I'm still trying to figure this out. When i do WOT pull for a datalog afr's hit fine. It does its little lean dance when ever in any gear and just getting on a bit. Even in 6th on the highway. I've been watching it and what happens is as soon as it transitions into open loop it hits targeted for a split second, (11.8) then goes lean by about .8-1.0 then settles back down to targeted.

This has me spooked everytime i get on it, even just a little, like merging. When your getting into the throttle for moderate load and moderate boost but your only in each gear for a second or two the afr's are in the mid 12's because there's no time for them to settle before you shift. 1st and 2nd gear are even worse, going into the 13's!

To avoid damage i'm targeting 11.0 to be safe. Its still does the same thing but it only leans out to 11.8-12 now. VD show the same hp/tq as we know afr doesn't effect output to much.

Does anybody have any insight? The wot log below was the newly flashed 11.0 afr map but doesn't show the lean thing. I'll get one to post today. FWIW, i have pretty much all the bolt ons including a 3bar map sensor, fp internals and all the breather mods.
I don't see any lean issues with the log you posted....only lean spot is at low boost/low load before you hit full boost. I would suggest you pull back on boost/load targets at 3k rpm as your hitting 23 psi and that could cause you some ZZB.
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 Old 08-11-2013, 05:39 PM   #227
 
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I started to have this problem out of the blue, its really strange, it doesn't appear to be MAF Cal related. It goes pig rich during spool then leans to about 12.2 - 12.4 for a sort while then comes back to 11.9 where I'm targeting. Its almost like the ECU is being too aggressive trying to lean out the rich condition...
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 Old 05-11-2014, 08:50 PM   #228
 
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Sorry to bump an old thread, but has anyone had any success fixing this recently? I am running across this issue also.

EDIT: I fixed the issue by lowering the closed loop afr targets at loads below the OL transition to the afr that I wanted at open loop.

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 Old 05-18-2014, 12:53 PM   #229
 
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I've never found a fix for it. I've just live with it. Other car's I've tuned don't seem to have this problem. But mine sure does.
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 Old 05-18-2014, 01:59 PM   #230
 
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Drop the CL exit delays to 5 Mistersix and see if that fixes things.

In the longer gears, the ecu has more time to correct, in the short gears, not so much.

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 Old 03-31-2016, 07:34 PM   #231
 
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Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
I wanted to follow up on this. I've noticed that these lean spike are only happening when ECT is below 180*F....I feel like i'm on to something but thats all I have for now.

Maybe there are ECT fueling comp tables that need to be uncovered?


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For sure there is a ECT based fueling table which is not yet uncovered. I can tell you this after I had cooling problems due to head lifting and the ECT pegged to 116 *C . You can see in the attached logs that ECU is adding a lot of fuel during overheating. My Lambda target was ~0.82 ( 12.0 AFR).
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File Type: csv datalog6.csv (14.5 KB, 0 views)
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 Old 04-03-2016, 05:57 AM   #232
 
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Originally Posted by Bucker View Post
Please help. Wacky AFRs

The above is my example of this issue I would like to have addressed. I have a lean spot post-spool up that cannot be influenced by the ATR maps. It is consistently a 13.44 AFR that my car hits for .5 second +- a little bit. I currently target 12.4 AFR, so that is a fairly large disparity.

In an attempt to remedy this, I did try several things with no positive results.

Electronically I altered the MAF curve in the affected area which did nothing to cure it. I also ensured all of my fuel tables were targeting the proper AFR, which they are. My LTFT learning zones max at 150 g/s, and my OL/CL transition happens at 1.25 Load. The shifting tables also seemed to have no effect on this condition.

I also physically inspected and cleaned the MAF and just replaced the MAP with a 3 BAR sensor as well as ensuring every hose clamp is properly tightened and is not leaking.
At this point, it is not necessarily a safety issue, but it is a concern to me. I want to have a spot on AFR curve and to be able to provide one for those that I have helped on their tuning adventures. As of now, I cannot provide this. Please help!

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I don't wanna continue the dispute started in the "VVT Tuning" thread ,but try to reduce the VVT advance during spool-up and see if the AFRs will lower. If my theory is correct it should alievate the spool/ post-spool AFR leaning
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 Old 06-19-2017, 04:32 AM   #233
 
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Sorry for the thread revival but has a solution to this post lean spike been found?

My car is doing the same thing with the bigger turbo. Maf curve adjustments have a small effect on it, but not enough to keep the curve smooth. Fuel tables are good. Exit delays are 10/20/20. Targeting 11.8:1, spikes to 12.3-12.75 afr. Only happens as boost reaches full spool around 3600 rpm to about 4500 rpm and then settles down to target.

I've checked for leaks on the intake and exhaust side. Cleaned Maf sensor, and epoxied threads on intake. Not sure if maybe the VE tables can help

Here's the log:
Post Spool Lean Spike.csv
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 Old 06-19-2017, 01:47 PM   #234
 
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Originally Posted by BuddySpeed3 View Post
Sorry for the thread revival but has a solution to this post lean spike been found?

My car is doing the same thing with the bigger turbo. Maf curve adjustments have a small effect on it, but not enough to keep the curve smooth. Fuel tables are good. Exit delays are 10/20/20. Targeting 11.8:1, spikes to 12.3-12.75 afr. Only happens as boost reaches full spool around 3600 rpm to about 4500 rpm and then settles down to target.

I've checked for leaks on the intake and exhaust side. Cleaned Maf sensor, and epoxied threads on intake. Not sure if maybe the VE tables can help

Here's the log:
Attachment 232522
Everything I've seen during my tuning has been that it leans during the CL/OL (Low/High) Ign switch.
(Retarded timing compensated with leaner mix?)
What's your Max Load D table values?
Attached Files
File Type: csv Spool-Lean.csv (3.7 KB, 3 views)
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 Old 06-19-2017, 02:42 PM   #235
 
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Originally Posted by Mazdaspeed3GT View Post
Everything I've seen during my tuning has been that it leans during the CL/OL (Low/High) Ign switch.
(Retarded timing compensated with leaner mix?)
What's your Max Load D table values?
Same for me. I had to make sure that before the transition, the open loop afr was already at the value I wanted the closed loop at. That fixed my issue.
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 Old 06-19-2017, 06:32 PM   #236
 
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Originally Posted by Mazdaspeed3GT View Post
Everything I've seen during my tuning has been that it leans during the CL/OL (Low/High) Ign switch.
(Retarded timing compensated with leaner mix?)
What's your Max Load D table values?
Originally Posted by speed23 View Post
Same for me. I had to make sure that before the transition, the open loop afr was already at the value I wanted the closed loop at. That fixed my issue.
I have all Max Load Tables A-E as follows:
Max Load D.PNG

Here's the map I'm trying to dial my AFR on (All my tables are good lookin):
BNR S4 Maf Cal.ptm

I set my Closed Loop Load Limits A-C to the same values in the Max Load Tables A-E to dial in the maf curve with no OL trims, then raise them back up to 2.6 load once AFR is dialed in. This is when I discovered the lean spike with the bnr s4.

I'm not sure if it's a CL/OL transition issue because in my posted log, the car goes into open loop and hits AFR targets well before the lean spike. I floor it at 2300 rpm, it goes into open loop, hits targets, then spikes lean for about 1k rpm when the turbo spools, then settles back down to target.

I don't know what else to change in the map aside from the Maf curve, but even that doesn't seem to work very well. The curve isn't smooth anymore. I don't remember the K04 having this issue (at least for me).

I thought about making the fuel tables more rich in the rpm region it spikes lean in just to smooth out the spike (as many have done), but I'd rather have it work the way it should! lol

I think my map tables look pretty solid, but as many have said before, there might be uncovered fuel tables that we don't have access to. Any insight on this issue?

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 Old 06-19-2017, 06:44 PM   #237
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Check "Calc Load Max A/B" in Load Tables folder. Make sure they're all 5.00.
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 Old 06-19-2017, 06:47 PM   #238
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Check "Calc Load Max A/B" in Load Tables folder. Make sure they're all 5.00.
Ok thank you, I'll giver a shot and report back
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 Old 06-20-2017, 07:06 AM   #239
 
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My other thought is it happens when bumping up against the boost limits.
I've seen in some of my other logs if I roll into WOT in higher RPMs in 3rd/4th, and the boost gradually reaches target rather than a small overshoot, I'm not seeing the lean spot.

I can't open your map. Are you boost tuning or load tuning?
Let's take a look at your Boost Limits and Boost Targets tables.

My "Calc Load Max A/B" have always been 5
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