Ton o' Knock... or None?

[Pedal-Force]

Working on my tune, I've been slowly adding timing and testing, then removing timing where I have somewhat consistent knock.

Two logs attached. 2 minutes after each other (1 is first, obviously). First log no real knock. Second log, hits 6, then a couple cells later goes a touch above 6. My max allowed is up at 10 or 12 (luckily), following Bucker's advice.

I can see I need to lower my boost at higher rpm, since my WG is pegged. Tune is still very much a work in progress. If you see anything else that looks bad let me know. Any help is good help.

Attached the tune as well, for those that want to look. It's for a 2010. Mods are in the sig. Just intake and pump basically.

I mainly want to know what went wrong. Do I need to back way off my timing? Did I hit a big bump? Did I bend a rod?

There was no knock on the drive home, just driving normal. No clutch vibes either.

Thanks for the help.

[fortressofcomfort]

Log 2's boost curve looks ok (18psi til 5k then tapering to 16psi at 6k) but I would say you are just too aggressive with your timing. Trying to hit 9* at 3,500/2.0CL? Not on pump gas I hope. Try more like 5* maybe 6* max.

Also, how are you adjusting it? With the High Throttle/OL tables or are you neutering the ECT vs BAT tables? Something else odd I noted is that, even at 4500rpms and 18psi, your BATs are only 1.8*F higher than your IATs. That's thermodynamically very odd to me at least.

You should probably also lower your Knock Decay Rate A and B. Looks like OTS. Set it to 150.

[Pedal-Force]

Ok. Yeah, this is on 93 octane. How am I able to just keep adding timing, and then suddenly it doesn't work? I'm definitely not trying to push the limits or anything. I'd love to go forged/BT eventually, but right now it's just a DD, that I need to keep being able to drive.

My power in VD also hasn't been going up, so maybe I somehow managed to pass MBT without knocking and I'm running too much timing now?

I'm adjusting it with the High Throttle/OL tables like Bucker recommends. Knocking 2* less, Max 2* more, vertical interpolate up to 1.25 load. Same in the Low Throttle/CL tables.

I don't think I changed the ECT v BAT tables. And yeah, I'm not sure how the BATs are so low compared to IAT. I'm not spraying meth, no upgraded IC, nothing.

Was it maybe a hot spot that pre-ignited in a big way? I've got new colder plugs in the garage, not installed yet. I kinda want to reach the (safe) limit on each hard part before I install something new, so I can see if it actually makes a difference.

I had knock decay at 150 originally, but then read that 300 was better for safety. Any truth to that? I think 600 or something is stock, FYI.

Thanks for the help. I really don't want to vent the block. My fiance would be pissed.

rfinkle2 Forgot to mention another master.

[rfinkle2]

What fuel are you using?

[Pedal-Force]

Exxon 93 octane.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Pedal-Force Exxon 93 octane.

Check your knock retard minimum and max (active) tables and make sure they are correct.

If your power is not increasing, you are teetering on MBT...

Pedal-Force, You are definitely way too far in the 3,000 rpm region on pump gas imo.

Editing, but I'm going to post the base gen2 table I use to start with (it is a blend of all of the ignition tables including max and knocking). I edit one of the tables and copy and paste this table to ALL of the ignition tables in an effort to avoid mistakes.

Feel free to use as a safe base, edit 1 of the tables, and copy and paste the table into all available tables (ALL) even max.

The ecu will still pull timing if it sees knock.

NOTE: NOT ALL ECU's HAVE THE SAME RESOLUTION AS GEN2, SO IF PASSING THROUGH THIS THREAD, PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS TABLE.

GEN2 ONLY!

25.80	33.00	40.80	51.30	52.40	41.70	43.50	42.20	44.50	50.50	46.70	47.80	39.90	40.20
25.80	33.00	40.80	51.30	52.40	41.70	43.50	42.20	44.50	50.50	46.70	47.80	39.90	40.20
17.30	27.70	30.90	41.30	43.20	36.90	37.30	38.60	42.00	45.00	46.70	47.80	39.90	40.20
14.50	24.30	28.40	36.90	38.70	33.80	34.50	35.00	39.50	39.50	43.60	44.00	39.50	40.20
12.50	22.90	26.50	34.00	36.70	32.00	32.80	32.30	36.50	36.00	40.00	40.00	39.10	40.00
10.50	21.50	24.70	31.10	34.00	30.20	31.00	29.50	33.50	32.50	37.50	36.50	38.70	39.80
8.20	20.60	23.60	28.40	32.50	29.60	29.50	28.00	31.00	30.60	35.10	35.50	37.00	37.00
6.00	19.70	22.50	27.00	29.00	28.90	28.00	26.50	28.50	28.70	32.00	32.00	32.00	32.00
5.10	15.50	20.50	24.50	26.75	27.90	27.00	25.80	26.90	27.40	29.00	29.00	29.00	29.00
4.20	13.25	15.40	20.70	23.35	26.00	26.00	25.00	25.20	26.00	26.00	26.00	26.00	26.00
1.80	11.00	13.19	15.30	18.15	21.00	21.88	22.75	23.00	23.00	23.00	23.00	23.00	23.00
-0.70	8.75	10.97	12.43	15.41	18.40	18.80	19.50	20.50	20.50	20.50	20.50	20.50	20.50
-2.00	6.50	8.76	10.64	13.31	14.00	16.50	17.69	18.78	20.00	20.00	20.00	20.00	20.00
-3.00	5.50	6.87	8.23	12.40	13.00	15.00	16.40	17.60	18.50	18.50	18.50	18.50	18.50
-4.00	4.52	6.28	7.70	11.27	12.00	13.25	15.26	16.76	18.00	18.00	18.00	18.00	18.00
-5.00	3.54	5.69	7.18	10.13	11.50	12.25	13.68	16.00	16.00	16.00	16.50	17.00	17.00
-6.00	2.04	4.30	6.65	9.00	10.00	11.50	12.50	14.00	15.00	15.50	15.50	16.00	16.00
-7.00	0.30	2.40	5.00	8.00	8.50	11.00	11.00	12.50	14.00	14.50	14.75	15.50	15.25
-8.00	-0.70	1.40	3.50	7.00	7.00	9.25	9.50	11.00	13.00	13.50	14.00	15.00	14.50
-9.00	-1.84	0.05	2.00	5.00	5.38	7.50	8.13	9.75	11.75	12.50	13.25	14.50	14.50
-10.00	-2.98	-1.30	0.50	3.00	3.75	5.75	6.75	8.50	10.50	11.50	12.50	14.00	14.50
-11.00	-4.13	-2.65	-1.00	1.00	2.13	4.00	5.38	7.25	9.25	10.50	11.75	13.50	14.50
-12.00	-5.27	-4.00	-2.50	-1.00	0.50	2.25	4.00	6.00	8.00	9.50	11.00	13.00	14.50
-13.00	-6.06	-4.25	-2.75	-1.25	0.25	2.00	3.75	5.75	7.75	9.25	10.75	12.75	14.25
-14.00	-6.85	-4.50	-3.00	-1.50	0.00	1.75	3.50	5.50	7.50	9.00	10.50	12.50	14.00
-15.00	-7.78	-4.75	-3.25	-1.75	-0.25	1.50	3.25	5.25	7.25	8.75	10.25	12.25	13.75
-16.00	-8.62	-5.00	-3.50	-2.00	-0.50	1.25	3.00	5.00	7.00	8.50	10.00	12.00	13.50
-17.00	-9.53	-5.25	-3.75	-2.25	-0.75	1.00	2.75	4.75	6.75	8.25	9.75	11.75	13.25
-18.00	-10.40	-5.50	-4.00	-2.50	-1.00	0.75	2.50	4.50	6.50	8.00	9.50	11.50	13.00
-19.00	-10.83	-5.75	-4.25	-2.75	-1.25	0.50	2.25	4.25	6.25	7.75	9.25	11.25	12.75
-20.00	-11.00	-5.50	-4.00	-2.50	-1.00	0.75	2.50	4.00	6.00	7.50	9.00	11.00	12.50

[Pedal-Force]

Min 500, Max 6700, min load is under 1.35 the whole time for knock active. Min coolant is 158, I've been tuning only above 180 though.

[Keko]

Wtf? The log with no knock has WAY more timing, and the BATs are pretty similar. My brain is fucked.

I can't think of anything except... gas and vibrations? Maybe something came loose during that last run? Was that the only log that had huge knock? Did you do any others after that?

One of the easiest ways to tell it apart from a mechanical issue or the tune, is to flash a OTS map. If there's no knock then something got screwed up with the timing.

[Pedal-Force]

The logs were back to back basically, after a couple traffic lights to turn around and get back on an entry ramp. No other logs with this tune, but I've been doing 2 or 3 logs each tune while I'm adding timing. Nothing had anything like this. Only 2.5* KR at the most, and I reduced timing in those areas.

[rfinkle2]

Please see my above post.
Pedal-Force, in addition, as load increases, spark advance should decrease, and as rpm's increase, spark advance should increase.

All of your tables do not show this pattern.

[Pedal-Force]

Got it, sorry, didn't see the edit. So we've established I probably have way too much timing, somehow.

How did I manage to get here without knock? If I start with your safer timing values and start increasing by a degree at a time until I get knock and back off, I might just end up in the same place.

I'll definitely back it off, I'm just confused what I did wrong.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Pedal-Force Got it, sorry, didn't see the edit. So we've established I probably have way too much timing, somehow. How did I manage to get here without knock? If I start with your safer timing values and start increasing by a degree at a time until I get knock and back off, I might just end up in the same place. I'll definitely back it off, I'm just confused what I did wrong.

I was speaking to Phate about this once, well, posting back and forth about pump gas quality and he feels that there may be some pump gas that allows for MBT in certain parts of the country.

Please see the following thread as well and note that e85 mixes likely have a slower burn rate than pump gas, so it is likely you are a little too hot in areas of your timing curve.

The E85 and E85 Mix *Ignition Timing* Database
Pedal-Force... My apologies for all of the tags, but wanted to mention.. On average, 2.5 to 3.5 degrees @ 3000 rpm and 1.8-2+ load is still considered a little aggressive on pump gas. (@ least I would be looking for MBT @ in that area)

[cbspd3flip]

Originally Posted by Pedal-Force Exxon 93 octane.

Exxon 93 is shit gas. I through 20 bucks in it with it the one night. Everything went to shit. Started knocking, hesitating, stumbling. Did the usual checks for leaks, etc... Nothing.

Filled up to full with Shell 93 the next day. Problem immediately went away.

Now I wouldn't be saying its shit if this was the first time. I had issues with exxon in the past with my other car, my dad, mom, sister all have had issues with exxon gas in their vehicles.
rfinkle2 I sent you an email, just checking to see if you had received it. Thanks.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by cbspd3flip Exxon 93 is shit gas. I through 20 bucks in it with it the one night. Everything went to shit. Started knocking, hesitating, stumbling. Did the usual checks for leaks, etc... Nothing. Filled up to full with Shell 93 the next day. Problem immediately went away. Now I wouldn't be saying its shit if this was the first time. I had issues with exxon in the past with my other car, my dad, mom, sister all have had issues with exxon gas in their vehicles. rfinkle2 I sent you an email, just checking to see if you had received it. Thanks.

Sending PM.

[Pedal-Force]

I've had better luck with Exxon than Shell (ugh) or BP. It's what I've been tuning with for the last few weeks exclusively. It didn't suddenly turn to shit.

Really though, I doubt any of the big ones have bad gas. I think Exxon, Shell, Chevron, BP, all are good. They're all at least 93 octane.

[cbspd3flip]

Yea I honestly think it might just be the one station here where I am at.

I've had zero issues with Shell 93 and Sunoco 93. Only two fuels I ever use. The exxon was kind of a necessary stop.

[Pedal-Force]

I kinda figured that I'd be making more than 250HP by the time I got anywhere near MBT, if it's even possible on pump gas.

Without meth or DP is that all there is?

I've updated the timing with your suggestions rfinkle2, I've lowered the decay rate to 150.

I'm gonna go make a run real quick and get a couple logs. That way I can at least sleep tonight knowing I didn't bend a rod or something.

[Keko]

rfinkle2 Ok so clearly he is running too much timing. Do you have any insight to how this happened? By that I mean how is the first log running so much more timing than the second log... without knock? The only difference I see is BATs and IAT went up a little in the second log.

This is confusing me because the second log pulled lots of timing and richened up the AFR, and still saw knock, yet the first log is fine

[Pedal-Force]

3 new logs. 2nd one isn't full because I started too early on the ramp and was still turning hard, couldn't keep my foot in it. No real knock though. First log had a little bit on spool. 0.9 around 3k, that's it. Much higher calculated load (2.2) than my logs earlier. They were more like 2, but they were also knocking like crazy (while still making power).

Seems like about 5 less HP, but in VD that's not anything. Down almost 30 torques though.

And that's with much lower IAT (only 73 tonight, more like 100-110 earlier from sitting in traffic before the runs).

Ugh, tuning is complicated.

Apparently remembering to attach things is also complicated.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Pedal-Force 3 new logs. 2nd one isn't full because I started too early on the ramp and was still turning hard, couldn't keep my foot in it. No real knock though. First log had a little bit on spool. 0.9 around 3k, that's it. Much higher calculated load (2.2) than my logs earlier. They were more like 2, but they were also knocking like crazy (while still making power). Seems like about 5 less HP, but in VD that's not anything. Down almost 30 torques though. And that's with much lower IAT (only 73 tonight, more like 100-110 earlier from sitting in traffic before the runs). Ugh, tuning is complicated. Apparently remembering to attach things is also complicated.

That timing map I sent you is only a base. I'm not surprised you lost some power.

Add a * @ a time, while monitoring VD.

Keko, @ this point, I can only speculate that the fuel quality in his area is very good, OR, there are stray values / values that are in load cells where timing was not ultra aggressive.

[Pedal-Force]

K. I'll start adding a degree at a time. VD bounces around a lot with air temp and stuff, how do you correct for that? Basically, how do I make sure I don't end up in the same place again? And should I put in the colder plugs?

Watch VD as well as knock this time I guess? Watch if power stops increasing? Why did one log and the ones before do fine and then suddenly tons of knock? Hot spot or something?

Thanks for your help.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[punkwrock]

Originally Posted by cbspd3flip Exxon 93 is shit gas. I through 20 bucks in it with it the one night. Everything went to shit. Started knocking, hesitating, stumbling. Did the usual checks for leaks, etc... Nothing. Filled up to full with Shell 93 the next day. Problem immediately went away. Now I wouldn't be saying its shit if this was the first time. I had issues with exxon in the past with my other car, my dad, mom, sister all have had issues with exxon gas in their vehicles. rfinkle2 I sent you an email, just checking to see if you had received it. Thanks.

My recent knock post i had filled with esso which is exxon i believe.....Loads of knock. Filled up at Petro-Canada next and problem went away.

[Pedal-Force]

Originally Posted by punkwrock My recent knock post i had filled with esso which is exxon i believe.....Loads of knock. Filled up at Petro-Canada next and problem went away.

Except all my tuning lately has been with Exxon from same station. Those two logs were the same gas exactly. The gas didn't suddenly turn to shit. I doubt any high quality gas is measurably different than another anyway. Some hate Exxon, some BP, some Shell.

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[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Pedal-Force K. I'll start adding a degree at a time. VD bounces around a lot with air temp and stuff, how do you correct for that? Basically, how do I make sure I don't end up in the same place again? And should I put in the colder plugs? Watch VD as well as knock this time I guess? Watch if power stops increasing? Why did one log and the ones before do fine and then suddenly tons of knock? Hot spot or something? Thanks for your help. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

On any given day, log the current map you are running and insert the log into VD. That will give you your current power on that day @ those temps and conditions.

Have a map ready that is a little more aggressive than the one you are currently running.

Flash that map and if the 2nd map creates more power than the first, you should be OK.

(assuming afr's are close and the logging is done on a very flat road / preferably the same stretch of road).

[cbspd3flip]

Originally Posted by Pedal-Force Except all my tuning lately has been with Exxon from same station. Those two logs were the same gas exactly. The gas didn't suddenly turn to shit. I doubt any high quality gas is measurably different than another anyway. Some hate Exxon, some BP, some Shell. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

We don't care if that's what you been using. Good for you that you have luck with exxon. We are just simply stating our misfortune with exxon brand gas.

It is very possible that the station received bad gas in between your fill ups.

[Pedal-Force]

Originally Posted by cbspd3flip We don't care if that's what you been using. Good for you that you have luck with exxon. We are just simply stating our misfortune with exxon brand gas. It is very possible that the station received bad gas in between your fill ups.

If you don't care that I've had good luck with Exxon what makes you think that I care that you've had bad luck?

Edit: also, there's no fill up between those logs. They're back to back.

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[ASHMS3]

I would make some adjustments to WGDC, seems like you are spiking close to 20 on spool up, then dropping to about 17.5, then jumping back up to 18.5. Not a huge deal, but power delivery will feel alot better if you can get that dialed in. As far as your knock, try a gallon of E, if it's available to you. If your knock goes away, it is real. If it doesn't, it's road or bay noise. I think you would benefit from a test pipe personally, you can find them on Amazon and E-bay for just under $100.

[Pedal-Force]

Eth is available nearby. The wgdc was better before I moved the timing back, now it's spiking. I'll re dial that after I get the timing figured out I guess.

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[rfinkle2]

Pedal Force, are you self tuning because you want to or because your budget does not allow for a tune @ the moment?

[Pedal-Force]

Want to. I like learning and playing with cars.

[fortressofcomfort]

Also keep in mind the road you log on must be COMPLETELY flat with NO bumps, ruts, etc and your logs MUST be in 4th gear.

In the summer I was able to run about 11.5* at 6k. Not now, since temps and fuel quality have dropped; i've had to lower it to 10*. I highly suggest learning the Ign BAT vs ECT Comp. A + B tables and the Ign BAT vs ECT Comp. - % Used tables. THE MAGIC IS IN THESE TABLE people, not the High Throttle/OL table.

Like Rob said, using Bucker's method of setting Calc Load timing values from 1.75+ is ok, but if you want to extract every hp out of your car then you will need to set it up to vary with Calculated Load. Just look at any of the OTS maps.

If I was you I'd first take the timing values from your OTS map and multiply all the cells (up to say 1.25 CL) until you get to the "good" values that "worked once." This will keep your rpm vs Calc Load factors in place (timing drops as CL increases). Then, as the car begins to have problem, pull back on the timing using the aforementioned companion tables.

Regardless, you are going to have to dial your car in with some safety margin, period. Every gas station, every fill up for that matter, will have you chasing you tail to get the timing. Trust me we've all been down this road before (I got 285whp in VD with big timing #s , now I can't get anywhere near those anymore). These turbo cars are so finicky to the air quality, fuel quality, tune quality, etc.

[Pedal-Force]

Why do logs have to be in fourth gear? I do third with no wheel spin. I don't like the idea of doing 100 or whatever 4th tops out at, so I've always done third.

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[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Pedal-Force Why do logs have to be in fourth gear? I do third with no wheel spin. I don't like the idea of doing 100 or whatever 4th tops out at, so I've always done third. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

They don't have to be in 4th, and I understand your concern; if you want your log perfect, you can't have any wheelspin, bump, or torque steer in 3rd. Once you open up your exhaust side a bit and get a good stage 2 tune on there you'll understand why most of us are laugh at taking logs in 3rd.

4th gear *generally* gets calculated loads up a little further and since the log takes more time, you can see more of what's happening during a given run (there's more "resolutions," or "sample.") The car isn't getting as much airflow in 3rd either Plus cynlider, spark plug, combustion chamber In general, dial in your WGDCS from 5-10% below whats indicated in the log (if boost targets were hit). Tweak your WGDCs then your Boost Error Comp table. You'll have to keep and eye on it periodically thought the winter months:The hotter it is out/more BATs, the less wartegate is neded, the higher the BATS and ECT, the lower your spark advance is which to help advocating

Some folks are just turning their WG Duty Boost Error Ramp Limiter - HIgh LImit from 10-20% or more. I don't like that. IF you have to have the ECU manipulating the wastegate more than 20%, something is wrong, period.

One strategy I was thinking of trying: GO back over all your old logs, I mean all of them. Find out must the most timing you EVER set at at that given IAT. Now if the actual and reported are close and there's no KR, use those values. They will look shy hig

PArt of the problem is just not knowing.. wjy id

There was some standing water in the road today (>5"). I had it in 5th gear, off boost, and drove through them. Thinking I had thought I was home free and buried it. Floored it in 5th gear and by the time I had 80mph/3500rpms/4000rpms I was getting hydroplaned by another small puddle of water which ripped both tires loose and the speedomeder speed up to 130mph. lol.

[Harvey PU]

Originally Posted by Pedal-Force Exxon 93 octane.

try a better gas station

[BT2010speed]

good thing you did that pull in 3rd because if you took that log in 4th ide imagine knock would have been alot higher. I just had a similar issue with KR. I drove around for 2 days in a revision with no KR at all not a blurp. virtual dyno was showing 305whp 345wtq 21.5psi with 10 degrees timing 2 load at 7k and 1 degree at 2500rpms. last night did a log in fourth monitoring boost. get home look it over and bam 4.3kr at 3000 rpms tapering back to 0 by 5200 rpms. and if you bent a rod the KR would no go away and you would have nasty vibrations.