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 Old 03-10-2011, 09:56 AM   #1
 
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Default No WOT below 3,000 rpms, no part throttle boost?

Guys and Girls,

I could use some help piecing together information on a couple of topics I've read about specific to the MZR platform...

-) My first few questions concerning "no WOT under 3,000 rpm's"...

-Does this suggestion come from the ecu's transition from closed loop to open loop, and if not, what does the 3,000 rpm threshold represent mechanically?
- i.e. if a torque curve is tuned is flat as possible, can someone please explain the difference of tq. coming in @ 2,500 rpms, vs say 3,000 rpm's.
-Is the only solution to this problem non-powder forged internals?

-) My second question is related to "no part throttle boosting"...

Where is this recommendation rooted?

Please forgive me, as this is the first car I've driven whose owner's recommend specific driving styles.

Last edited by rfinkle2; 03-10-2011 at 10:10 AM.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:06 AM   #2
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
Guys and Girls,

I could use some help piecing together information on a couple of topics I've read about specific to the MZR platform...

-) My first few questions concerning "no WOT under 3,000 rpm's"...

-Does this suggestion come from the ecu's transition from closed loop to open loop, and if not, what does the 3,000 rpm threshold represent mechanically?
- i.e. if a torque curve is tuned is flat as possible, can someone please explain the difference of tq. coming in @ 2,500 rpms, vs say 3,000 rpm's.
-Is the only solution to this problem forged internals?

-) My second question is related to "no part throttle boosting"...

Where is this recommendation rooted?

Please forgive me, as this is the first car I've driven whose owner's recommend specific driving styles.
1st topic, well I think people have said that it puts a lot of load on the rods for a longer period of time say at tdc when you have lower engine speeds. I don't know if this is necessarily true. But what i think is there is some resonance in these engines at 2000-3000rpm, and putting extra load on these engines when they are resonating could result in failure.

2nd topic, I part throttle boost all the time.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:06 AM   #3
 
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You don't want to load your engine at such low rpm's. Many of us believe this is why we had issues with popped motors back in the day. This turbo is really too small for our cars, its spools too quickly. That's why most of us play the "no wot until 3000" game.

Also, name another car you've had where you floor it at 2500 in order to accelerate quickly.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:11 AM   #4
 
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IIRC we come stock with forged internals
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:12 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Amazon View Post
You don't want to load your engine at such low rpm's. Many of us believe this is why we had issues with popped motors back in the day. This turbo is really too small for our cars, its spools too quickly. That's why most of us play the "no wot until 3000" game.

Also, name another car you've had where you floor it at 2500 in order to accelerate quickly.
bmw z3 2.8, 2007 mustang gt, just 2 off the top of my head
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:13 AM   #6
 
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Don't be a tard Hams, you don't floor a car like those at 2500 to accelerate quickly.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:17 AM   #7
 
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Originally Posted by ms307nm View Post
IIRC we come stock with forged internals

There is some debate as to whether the type of forging (powder forging) is as strong as forging seen in more robust rods.

Originally Posted by Amazon View Post
You don't want to load your engine at such low rpm's. Many of us believe this is why we had issues with popped motors back in the day. This turbo is really too small for our cars, its spools too quickly. That's why most of us play the "no wot until 3000" game.

Also, name another car you've had where you floor it at 2500 in order to accelerate quickly.
I've had other forced induction cars tuned much differently. I.E. full boost was reached a great deal earlier in the rev band.

I don't need to wot under 3,000 rpms, but I'd like to understand the mechanical aspects of the recommendation.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:18 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Amazon View Post
Don't be a tard Hams, you don't floor a car like those at 2500 to accelerate quickly.
i joke i joke, tried to think of the 2 fastest race cars ive ever driven! lol both are fun but ya its definatly 3,000/3,500 with those too
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:21 AM   #9
 
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bastard!
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:26 AM   #10
 
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I always follow the no wot under 3k rule, and I actually wait til 3.3-3.5k, because I get 2kr pretty regularly if I don't... Don't know if that is related or not.

I too would love to hear an answer regarding the partial throttle boosting though.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:27 AM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by Amazon View Post
You don't want to load your engine at such low rpm's. Many of us believe this is why we had issues with popped motors back in the day. This turbo is really too small for our cars, its spools too quickly. That's why most of us play the "no wot until 3000" game.

Also, name another car you've had where you floor it at 2500 in order to accelerate quickly.
This is what I have read. If you look at a dyno sheet for our car on stock turbo, we make an enormous amount of torque within that range. No wot until 3000 makes sense if you are in a taller gear. I assume it is fine in a lower gear, but you dont want to be going 65 and mash it in 6th. That is more stressful on the engine than if you were to downshift.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:31 AM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by myslow1 View Post
This is what I have read. If you look at a dyno sheet for our car on stock turbo, we make an enormous amount of torque within that range. No wot until 3000 makes sense if you are in a taller gear. I assume it is fine in a lower gear, but you dont want to be going 65 and mash it in 6th. That is more stressful on the engine than if you were to downshift.
Because...? centrifugal force puts less stress on the rods when spinning faster (an educated guess on my part) ?
BUT... that doesn't fit when I look @ Christian's calculated load on the datalogs. The load increases as rpm's increase, @ least in the datalogs.


What is the differentiation between say 250 ft lbs @ 3000 rpms vs 4,000 rpms?

I've searched but cannot find an answer.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:37 AM   #13
 
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if you are in 1st-2nd gear and you floor it at 2500 RPM you move through the RPMS quicker than if you are in 3rd-6th. You have a load on the engine for a longer time... That is what I get out of the whole thing.

I have never read the part throttle boosting though. I do it all the time in town.




I dont think there is a "safe" answer though. If you drive your car like an idiot it isnt going to last.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:41 AM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by Amazon View Post
Also, name another car you've had where you floor it at 2500 in order to accelerate quickly.
My 2000 auto. Protege.

Although I couldn't really pass anything at any RPM at any speed in that car.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:49 AM   #15
 
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if mazda diddnt put a rod shaped like this in our cars it wouldnt be a issue.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:56 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Amazon View Post
Also, name another car you've had where you floor it at 2500 in order to accelerate quickly.
My old APR stage 3 Audi Allroad, had over 300ftlbs @ 2100rpm on race fuel. 6th gear wot on the highway to pass was astounding for a 4400 pound wagon. I miss that tranny, shifted like a dream.Don't miss the boat like pneumatic shocked handling.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:56 AM   #17
 
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The rods are fine, just need to be beefier for such low end torque. Jwilkins and several others are make over double the factory torque on stock rods. Its not necessarily how much you make as it is where you make it at.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 10:58 AM   #18
 
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I have driven customers $100k+ Porsches at WOT under 3k, with less than 10 miles on them. I have also replaced a case on a GT3 RS engine and the next day the customer tracked the car.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:07 AM   #19
 
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Originally Posted by Davy180 View Post
I have driven customers $100k+ Porsches at WOT under 3k, with less than 10 miles on them. I have also replaced a case on a GT3 RS engine and the next day the customer tracked the car.
Cool?
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:09 AM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by Davy180 View Post
I have driven customers $100k+ Porsches at WOT under 3k, with less than 10 miles on them. I have also replaced a case on a GT3 RS engine and the next day the customer tracked the car.
You had to bring in a super car?
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:10 AM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by Davy180 View Post
I have driven customers $100k+ Porsches at WOT under 3k, with less than 10 miles on them. I have also replaced a case on a GT3 RS engine and the next day the customer tracked the car.
lolol was the gt3rs a 11 that was blue and gold?


and i was in 5th at 40mph and about 1400rpms with my 600hp mustang full throttle racing friends all the time.its only mazda that has this problem,i dont see vw's doing it

and if the rods were fine then they wouldnt blow if you went full throttle even at 1krpms.yes some hold up but most dont
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:22 AM   #22
 
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I miss the days when I was ignorant and passing people lazily in 6th. I loved the massive low rpm torque! Guess you can't really have that w/o consequence in a 4 banger turbo.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:30 AM   #23
 
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Everybody needs to keep in mind the OP was on shout one day and argued with about 7 people saying that there is absolutely no need to monitor anything if your tuned. Specifically protuned. So hes gonna blow anyways.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:33 AM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by DaleNixon View Post
I miss the days when I was ignorant and passing people lazily in 6th. I loved the massive low rpm torque! Guess you can't really have that w/o consequence in a 4 banger turbo.

Please don't get me wrong, I understand this car could possibly be more fragile @ lower rpm's, but not all 4 cylinder turbo charged engines are subject to these limitations.

That is why I asked what is going on mechanically, and I'm not sure that any of us have figured it out yet.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:39 AM   #25
 
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From my understanding, when you are making more torque at low RPMs, you are putting more stress on the rod and bearings for a longer time. This allows more time for the excess torque to force out oil from between the rod bearing and the crank journals. Over time, this could create excess wear due to the lack of lubrication on the bearing/journal and cause zoom-zoom boom.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:40 AM   #26
 
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I think he meant PTFB....PTFB is almost impossible (to an extent) with a properly regulated EBCS.

With a Bleed type MBC it is very possible. You can hit 22psi at 30% TPS = bad joo joo.

Mainly mid-sized turbo's running big boost and a bleed MBC (they boost to target as fast as possible) have problems with part throttle full boost.

i still don't use more than 7psi or so in traffic part throttle...it isn't good for the car and usually factory maps at higher g/rev load tables are lean. 3200 at 2.5+ g/rev = 12.4-13.5 give or take. You get some bad gas and you could have some big det.


Also you can go WOT in the lower gear whenever you want (1-3). if the rods were that frail they'd give at peak torque rather than "boost loading." I don't know why a Mazda would be any different. I might open the old Pro-tuner and look at the OL/CL fueling triggers. Maybe it has a RPM delay on OL fueling.....nothing i can think of other than it's a wife's tale.
But you NEVER NEVER go WOT in a cruise or OD gear in a FI car that's common sense. downshift or use less than 50% TPS and 10psi to pass.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:41 AM   #27
 
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Originally Posted by letsfightrobbb View Post
Everybody needs to keep in mind the OP was on shout one day and argued with about 7 people saying that there is absolutely no need to monitor anything if your tuned. Specifically protuned. So hes gonna blow anyways.
I never, and I'm sure those other people on the shout that day will agree, said that one doesn't have to monitor anything.

I stated that I will not be monitoring kr every time I go WOT once protuned.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:55 AM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
I never, and I'm sure those other people on the shout that day will agree, said that one doesn't have to monitor anything.

I stated that I will not be monitoring kr every time I go WOT once protuned.


I agree, to a degree. After you get your tune fine tuned and spot on, i dont think you have to monitor KR EVERYTIME you drive your car. During tuning process and maybe at the track. If you get some minor mods and get a tune and leave it that way for a year...just do a log every now and again to make sure everything is still spot on. If you log, log KR..if you are just driving around casually and not logging, i dont feel the need. my 2 cents. . fwiw
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 Old 03-10-2011, 11:58 AM   #29
 
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No one has really proved this no wot @ below 3k shit. There was alot of talk about it when motors were poping couple years back, some statements were said that had some credible evidence, so alot of if just to play it "safe" adapted the dam rule. But its not written in stone. cld12pk2go is running 350+ wtq on his car and he flat out says that he floors it whenever he wants, and zero issues. And hes a fairly smart motherfucker on here.

If it makes you "feel" better than just dont wot before 3 k. Honestly I dont, more than the fact that in the first couple gears, Ill just wheel spin more so whats the point.

One thing is for sure, people are rarely blowing their motors now. So is it better tuning&fueling...or scared people who always keep wot after 3k? Are a mixture of both...who knows...I do think that avoiding unnessary stress on the rods is good if you can help it, you wont see me "floor" it @ 60 mph in 6th gear....but I do believe the No wot below 3k is overrated.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:02 PM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by TheMush View Post
I agree, to a degree. After you get your tune fine tuned and spot on, i dont think you have to monitor KR EVERYTIME you drive your car. During tuning process and maybe at the track. If you get some minor mods and get a tune and leave it that way for a year...just do a log every now and again to make sure everything is still spot on. If you log, log KR..if you are just driving around casually and not logging, i dont feel the need. my 2 cents. . fwiw
I leave it at my original statement. He is retracting what he said in the shout. He didnt just say KR and got blasted by a bunch of us on there. So now hes taking it back. And no tune is flawless. An engine is an engine. Shit happens. let him go WOT thru all the gears with knock and blow because his tune "shouldve" solved it. Nothing perfect.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:08 PM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by letsfightrobbb View Post
I leave it at my original statement. He is retracting what he said in the shout. He didnt just say KR and got blasted by a bunch of us on there. So now hes taking it back. And no tune is flawless. An engine is an engine. Shit happens. let him go WOT thru all the gears with knock and blow because his tune "shouldve" solved it. Nothing perfect.
He's trying to learn, and you're not helping. Who cares what he said in the shout? He's asking for the logic behind the concept. He's not saying that it's ok to go WOT under 3k rpm. He's asking legitimate questions.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:10 PM   #32
 
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Originally Posted by letsfightrobbb View Post
I leave it at my original statement. He is retracting what he said in the shout. He didnt just say KR and got blasted by a bunch of us on there. So now hes taking it back. And no tune is flawless. An engine is an engine. Shit happens. let him go WOT thru all the gears with knock and blow because his tune "shouldve" solved it. Nothing perfect.
I didnt see the chat conversation...but not monitoring anything is pretty dumb, and never logging is dumb. But just going by what he posted there "Im not gonna monitor KR everytime i drive"...i agree with. But i also believe in logging every X amount of time, as you are right, mechanical functionality changes as parts wear etc..which means the tune is now not accurate.

Edit- in addition..i do think its very important to keep very keen on how your car reacts, operates and responds to user input, and never go lazy on that. You can pick up alot of early warnings by listening and feeling your car everytime you drive it.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:13 PM   #33
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
I never, and I'm sure those other people on the shout that day will agree, said that one doesn't have to monitor anything.

I stated that I will not be monitoring kr every time I go WOT once protuned.
Why wouldn't you? What's it hurt? If u were smart you'd datalog every WOT pull you do. Cool if ur protuned so was many other people who blew. Datalog EVERY PULL and check yout figures. How else will u know when ur fuel pressure is under 1600 or ur holding KR up in the 3-5 range under a high rpm? Don't be stupid it isn't that hard to press a god damn button and log your shit
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:21 PM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by AdrenalineRush View Post
Why wouldn't you? What's it hurt? If u were smart you'd datalog every WOT pull you do. Cool if ur protuned so was many other people who blew. Datalog EVERY PULL and check yout figures. How else will u know when ur fuel pressure is under 1600 or ur holding KR up in the 3-5 range under a high rpm? Don't be stupid it isn't that hard to press a god damn button and log your shit
I didn't create this thread to argue. Anyone can monitor whatever they please @ anytime they please.

I am not retracting anything, I had an AFR and boost gauge in all of my other FI cars, and have a boost gauge in this one.


I feel that this thread has legitimacy.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:28 PM   #35
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WOT at lower RPMS - high torque at lower RPMS - causes more stress on the rods and rotating assembly similarly to lugging an engine. Oil film breaks down more readily in bearings since oil pressure is lower and since piston speed is slower. You run a higher risk of detonating since the mixture is compressed over a longer time period and has time to heat and ignite.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:39 PM   #36
 
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Originally Posted by indianaryan View Post
He's trying to learn, and you're not helping. Who cares what he said in the shout? He's asking for the logic behind the concept. He's not saying that it's ok to go WOT under 3k rpm. He's asking legitimate questions.
+1

Originally Posted by AdrenalineRush View Post
Why wouldn't you? What's it hurt? If u were smart you'd datalog every WOT pull you do. Cool if ur protuned so was many other people who blew. Datalog EVERY PULL and check yout figures. How else will u know when ur fuel pressure is under 1600 or ur holding KR up in the 3-5 range under a high rpm? Don't be stupid it isn't that hard to press a god damn button and log your shit
To each there own. I try to make sure to monitor regularly, but I think that monitoring every pull really takes the fun out of driving... If I'm going to the grocery store or going to dinner w my GF, I'm not going to plug in my AP just so I can get on it... There is being responsible with a car, and then there is overkill IMO.

Oh, and great info wrx fan!
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:42 PM   #37
 
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Originally Posted by Ckmazdaspeed3 View Post
+1



To each there own. I try to make sure to monitor regularly, but I think that monitoring every pull really takes the fun out of driving... If I'm going to the grocery store or going to dinner w my GF, I'm not going to plug in my AP just so I can get on it... There is being responsible with a car, and then there is overkill IMO.

Oh, and great info wrx fan!
+1
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:44 PM   #38
 
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
WOT at lower RPMS - high torque at lower RPMS - causes more stress on the rods and rotating assembly similarly to lugging an engine. Oil film breaks down more readily in bearings since oil pressure is lower and since piston speed is slower. You run a higher risk of detonating since the mixture is compressed over a longer time period and has time to heat and ignite.
What are your thoughts on part throttle boosting?

For the record, I never suggested, not even for a second, that you should not monitor your car. I stated that I would not be logging every time I go wot, and I will also not be watching KR every time I go WOT.

I wish everyone nothing but the best with their cars, even the poster(s) who felt it necessary to interject what he'd like to think that I stated.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:45 PM   #39
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
Guys and Girls,

I could use some help piecing together information on a couple of topics I've read about specific to the MZR platform...

-) My first few questions concerning "no WOT under 3,000 rpm's"...

-Does this suggestion come from the ecu's transition from closed loop to open loop, and if not, what does the 3,000 rpm threshold represent mechanically?
- i.e. if a torque curve is tuned is flat as possible, can someone please explain the difference of tq. coming in @ 2,500 rpms, vs say 3,000 rpm's.
-Is the only solution to this problem non-powder forged internals?

-) My second question is related to "no part throttle boosting"...

Where is this recommendation rooted?

Please forgive me, as this is the first car I've driven whose owner's recommend specific driving styles.
1) this relate directly to the mechanical limitations of the high pressure fuel pump.. At low rpms the pump has issues flowing enough fuel and maintaining fuel pressure. It's not exactly a rule, but a good guideline to follow whenever possible..

2) the ecu's transition from closed loop to open loop isn't very predictable, especially in part throttle situations.. Once this motor is mildly modified it is very easy to get 10+psi of boost at almost any rpm with very little throttle input... 10psi at 2500rpm and 30% throttle input + low fuel pressure and the ECU still targeting AFR's in the high 13's = BOOM.
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 Old 03-10-2011, 12:49 PM   #40
 
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We also have to realize this is a 2.3 4cyl. We can't expect it to make v8 4.6cobra numbers not built. Let's look at it this way if this was a cobra and we were making 320-350 wtq at 3k fine not a problem now if we where trying to make 640-700wtq not built at 3k u would be picking your shit up off the street. It's all relative so making 320-.350 wheel torque at3k not possible stock well it is but not for long. cyl pressures are way to high at that rpm. My personal opinion is if u go bigger turbo u will have less problems. Now we also run into the problem of not having a big power hand now due to the fact of the cams lose power at 6700 so not much of a power band. If u do cams and a big turbo with some springs and retainers to eliminate float and a vct so u can rev I think a stock block could run a great time with a good power band and make some sick power.
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