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 Old 07-16-2013, 03:26 PM   #1
 
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Default Catastrophic Dyno Results

I took my car to a local "Dyno Day" and was terribly disappointed. Here's the background story:

2 days before the event, I pumped 100 octane race gas to stave off any knock. I also performed a boost leak test morning of; just to ensure everything was OK (I found a leak at the BPV which was remedied). All mods are listed in my signature.


The Result:

I Made 227 WHP and 266WTQ on a dynojet (ambient temp around 70*f). I was too stupid to realize that i should have logged the car while it was on the dyno, so i cant provide those.



To be perfectly honest, i was expecting something in the neighborhood of 280whp and ~300wtq (wishful thinking, i suppose)

My questions:

I understand that all cars are different and OTS maps generally suck, but can cars really vary that much? or can i just assume that my that there is something wrong with my car? will an E-tune (e85) really get me to where i wanna be, which is ~300whp and ~350wqt (and ~80hp gain and ~90wtq) ?


i have logs from a few days before the event. I don't know if they'll be of any use, but ill attach them anyway.
Attached Files
File Type: csv 4th gear pull (3).csv (398.6 KB, 46 views)
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 Old 07-16-2013, 03:35 PM   #2
 
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Hmm... was expecting ZZB..
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 Old 07-16-2013, 03:37 PM   #3
 
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OTS is your problem. Plenty of e-tuners on here, pick one!
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 Old 07-16-2013, 04:39 PM   #4
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Based on the temperatures in that log you my have really heatsoaked your IC and ran into lots of KR. Did you have a bag of ice on it on the dyno? If you get KR you can lose 35-40whp easily. Did you add E-85 as fuel or race fuel?

Also on a flat stretch of road with proper airflow going to the car what does Vdyno say?

The Stg2 S-OTS 93 maps will get you more power than 227whp. You should be around 275-285 whp and around 320 ft lbs if the car is not heatsoaked and everything is in order mechanically like shown in this dyno:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...0413-dyno.jpeg
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 Old 07-16-2013, 04:41 PM   #5
 
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You should have been good for ~250HP/300WTQ based on your mods in 70F, no way 280 on an OTS tune. If I had to guess, your shit was probably heat soaked, ambient temps don't matter when the car is sitting idling for 10 minutes before the pulls. As soon as that intercooler heat soaks and your intake heat soaks there goes 20HP right there. It's good to manage heat soak with ice as those guys are setting the car up and strapping it down. I happen to know that the CPE heat soaks like a mother fucker.

230HP would be about right for a heat soaked car. Your LTFTs look off and you hit some KR at 4300 which should be addressed. Welcome to a turbo car in the summer. I would like to introduce you to my friend Methanol injection.
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 Old 07-16-2013, 04:49 PM   #6
 
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^^Agreed

The tq you were expecting is definitely plausible minimizing heat soak, but realistically speaking, even under perfect conditions, there's only a select few peeps that have gotten close to 300 whp without meth, e85 or any form of supplemental fueling and without being fully bolted. Definitely not saying that it's impossible, but it's extremely unlikely on an OTS map

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 Old 07-16-2013, 05:07 PM   #7
 
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I dyno my car the same day with fully bolted running a 3 gallon mix of E85 and hit 282whp and 322trq.... that was a little surprising low numbers...

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 Old 07-16-2013, 10:10 PM   #8
 
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I'm getting 210whp/232 wtq on VD based on his logs from the day before...

Seems extremely low even for an OTS map.

Needs an etune.
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 Old 07-16-2013, 10:53 PM   #9
 
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OP, you should swing by the Target meet tomorrow night after 9:00 off the Balboa exit on the 118 and let me take a look at your setup.

Was the race gas that you filled up with unleaded? If not, you might have just destroyed your cats. When was the last time you did a compression check?

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 Old 07-16-2013, 11:52 PM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by himurax13 View Post
OP, you should swing by the Target meet tomorrow night after 9:00 off the Balboa exit on the 118 and let me take a look at your setup.

Was the race gas that you filled up with unleaded? If not, you might have just destroyed your cats. When was the last time you did a compression check?

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I pumped unleaded race gas, that im certain of. I have never done a compression check but i probably should. I really hope that my car was only heat soaked.


Here are a couple of 3rd gear logs I gathered tonight.
Attached Files
File Type: csv datalog1.csv (34.6 KB, 17 views)
File Type: csv datalog2.csv (19.4 KB, 4 views)
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 Old 07-17-2013, 03:32 AM   #11
 
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Dirty air filter?

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 Old 07-17-2013, 03:43 AM   #12
 
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Someone obviously stole your turbo.
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 Old 07-17-2013, 06:38 AM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by Elvisrosales88 View Post
I pumped unleaded race gas, that im certain of. I have never done a compression check but i probably should. I really hope that my car was only heat soaked.


Here are a couple of 3rd gear logs I gathered tonight.
The car is running 16 psi and extremely rich. I'm sure that is by design given it is an ots map, but you can't expect to be anywhere near 300 hp with 16 psi and low 11 afr targets.
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 Old 07-17-2013, 06:41 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Elvisrosales88 View Post
I pumped unleaded race gas, that im certain of. I have never done a compression check but i probably should. I really hope that my car was only heat soaked.


Here are a couple of 3rd gear logs I gathered tonight.
The logs look ok - nothing bad there. Your car is flowing well and boost is staying low. Also you are going WOT at 2500 RPM. Go WOT at 3000 RPM and punch the throttle as it will give you a stronger boost response.
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 Old 07-18-2013, 02:18 PM   #15
 
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OP, let me know if you want to swing by and do a compression check. I live near the Nordhoff exit of the 405. Have you done some logs with regular 91 octane and the 91 map?
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 Old 07-22-2013, 09:52 PM   #16
 
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"OTS" should get renamed "OTT" (Only Tll Tuned)
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 Old 07-22-2013, 11:07 PM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by The Nut View Post
"OTS" should get renamed "OTT" (Only Tll Tuned)
Stage 2 maps definitely delivered some butt dyno verifiable results, but getting @atvfreek; to uncork the inner beast is a completely different experience. We had some unseasonably cool temps here tonight, and my car was misbehaving *very* nicely.

I didn't log, but I expect those numbers in my sig would've been appreciably higher/faster. I've only had summer temps to grab logs.

As a side note - this also sorta verifies my thought process on the thermal mass issues with TMIC upgrades. Doesn't soak as fast, but once it's hot, it's going to stay hot. Choose your poison with TMICs.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 06:31 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
The car is running 16 psi and extremely rich. I'm sure that is by design given it is an ots map, but you can't expect to be anywhere near 300 hp with 16 psi and low 11 afr targets.
The car doesn't lose any power running these afrs.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 06:37 AM   #19
 
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
The car doesn't lose any power running these afrs.
This particular car Lex, or the Mazdaspeed on pump gas in general?

I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of ecu tuning, but am not sure that low 11 afr's are ideal for power, even on the ms3.

As a matter of fact, I know you to be a heavy user and advocate of vdyno, and I have plenty of vdyno plots to prove otherwise.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 09:56 AM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by himurax13 View Post
OP, let me know if you want to swing by and do a compression check. I live near the Nordhoff exit of the 405. Have you done some logs with regular 91 octane and the 91 map?
@himurax13; when are you available to do that compression test? It may placebo, but i feel like my car is running like shit.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 10:00 AM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by Elvisrosales88 View Post
@himurax13; when are you available to do that compression test? It may placebo, but i feel like my car is running like shit.
Well there is a weekly Mazda Meet at the Target by the Balboa Exit off the 118 that starts at 9:00 PM every wednesday. If you are going to go, just let me know so I can bring the tester. Please bring the tools you need to change your plugs and a spark plug gap tool.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 11:01 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
This particular car Lex, or the Mazdaspeed on pump gas in general?

I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of ecu tuning, but am not sure that low 11 afr's are ideal for power, even on the ms3.

As a matter of fact, I know you to be a heavy user and advocate of vdyno, and I have plenty of vdyno plots to prove otherwise.
Quite a few cars on the dyno in different conditions have shown this to be the case. The AFRs are not the reason for the low power here.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 11:14 AM   #23
 
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Quite a few cars on the dyno in different conditions have shown this to be the case. The AFRs are not the reason for the low power here.
You have my apologies Lex. I see that this is your ots tune and if you note, I was actually trying to defend it in a way.

Anyhow, I'm sure you know why it is the car is disappointing the OP and will explain it to him.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 11:18 AM   #24
 
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OP was your hood open or closed?
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 Old 07-23-2013, 11:21 AM   #25
 
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I think I may be missing something here.

The OP was hoping for closer to 300 hp.

The OP is running an ots tune which on his car was producing ~ 16 psi with relatively rich afr's (imo).

OTS tunes are not going to produce 300 hp, no matter if they are produced by Cobb, Stratified or any other tuner.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 11:54 AM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
I think I may be missing something here.

The OP was hoping for closer to 300 hp.

The OP is running an ots tune which on his car was producing ~ 16 psi with relatively rich afr's (imo).

OTS tunes are not going to produce 300 hp, no matter if they are produced by Cobb, Stratified or any other tuner.
Well he is not going to get 300 HP in California with his mods and 91 Octane Gas unless he goes on a Dyna Pack like Churches Automotive or Tri-Point Engineering. Even then he will need to push a bit more boost than what he has now.



I am fairly certain that I am making close to 100 HP more than the OP with my "Stockish" setup but my tune is a bit more aggressive and I am running the corn.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 12:03 PM   #27
 
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MR. OP! will an E-tune (e85) really get me to where i wanna be, which is ~300whp and ~350wqt (and ~80hp gain and ~90wtq) ?

I dynod at 307//357 with less mods then you, on corn from @Lex; In california also. so YES.

careful with that race gas shit, will eat up your sensors.. Also next time throw 1-1.5gal of E85 for you. Will help way more. I'm pretty sure the low numbers as said by a few people was due to HeatSoak, and KR
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 Old 07-23-2013, 12:57 PM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by ms3rick View Post
MR. OP! will an E-tune (e85) really get me to where i wanna be, which is ~300whp and ~350wqt (and ~80hp gain and ~90wtq) ?

I dynod at 307//357 with less mods then you, on corn from @Lex; In california also. so YES.

careful with that race gas shit, will eat up your sensors.. Also next time throw 1-1.5gal of E85 for you. Will help way more. I'm pretty sure the low numbers as said by a few people was due to HeatSoak, and KR
Race gas shouldn't cause issues unless it is leaded...
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 Old 07-23-2013, 12:58 PM   #29
 
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Originally Posted by Elvisrosales88 View Post
@himurax13; when are you available to do that compression test? It may placebo, but i feel like my car is running like shit.
@Elvisrosales88; it was at this meet months ago that a compression test by @himurax13; found cylinder 4 to have an extremely low compression on my car. We give each other a lot of rousing at this meet, but over-all, we help each other. Come by, get diagnosed, leave with answers, get fixed, be happy.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 01:09 PM   #30
 
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As far as I know race gas + pump gas advance timing values = loss of power. The race gas will burn a lot slower than an equivalent (in octane rating) E mix. That's where the loss of power comes from IMHO.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 01:21 PM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by mituc View Post
As far as I know race gas + pump gas advance timing values = loss of power. The race gas will burn a lot slower than an equivalent (in octane rating) E mix. That's where the loss of power comes from IMHO.
Where did you get that info? A faster burning fuel = less timing advance, a slower burning fuel = more timing advance to burn the same amount of fuel in the same period of time. A proper ignition timing curve for the given fuel should create similar power, if everything else remains equal. "Race gas" generally just means higher octane(100+), but AFAIK, that does not change flame speed, only resistance to detonation. Heat has a large affect on flame speed and E85 cools the combustion chamber quite a bit, which would lead me to believe it will burn at a slower rate and require more ignition advance.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 02:10 PM   #32
 
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Originally Posted by sidekick View Post
Where did you get that info? A faster burning fuel = less timing advance, a slower burning fuel = more timing advance to burn the same amount of fuel in the same period of time.
This is exactly my point. If you tune for pump gas and then throw in some slower burning fuel (or a fuel that results in less energy per the same amount) this is exactly what happens, you loose power.
With the right timing curve there's actually a power gain from burning the same amount of fuel. Same situation for E mixes, burning a certain amount of ethanol results in less caloric energy than burning the same amount of pump gas. But with proper timing it works better.
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 Old 07-23-2013, 08:56 PM   #33
 
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@himurax13; I'm usually at that meet every Wednesday. I'll show up and take the tools.



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 Old 07-23-2013, 09:55 PM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by Elvisrosales88 View Post
@himurax13; I'm usually at that meet every Wednesday. I'll show up and take the tools.



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I might take advantage of this too and check my new engines' health.
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 Old 07-25-2013, 11:35 AM   #35
 
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So last night I went to meet and with the help of @himurax13; i got a compression test. Everything seems to be in order (aside from some poorly gaped spark plugs which were corrected). I ran two 4th gear logs. I noticed that on the first log i have KR > 2.0 and really high BATS (~50* above ambient). Can someone check these logs for me?

BTW Vdyno numbers are still very low. WTF?
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 Old 07-25-2013, 11:53 AM   #36
 
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Originally Posted by Elvisrosales88 View Post
So last night I went to meet and with the help of @himurax13; i got a compression test. Everything seems to be in order (aside from some poorly gaped spark plugs which were corrected). I ran two 4th gear logs. I noticed that on the first log i have KR > 2.0 and really high BATS (~50* above ambient). Can someone check these logs for me?

BTW Vdyno numbers are still very low. WTF?
That knock is occurring for an extended period of time. Are you running 91 octane with the 93 Octane Map?

Also, you need to add Injector Duty Cycle and Intake Valve Adv to your logging list.

What did the VDyno read at?
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 Old 07-25-2013, 01:10 PM   #37
 
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Originally Posted by himurax13 View Post
That knock is occurring for an extended period of time. Are you running 91 octane with the 93 Octane Map?

Also, you need to add Injector Duty Cycle and Intake Valve Adv to your logging list.

What did the VDyno read at?

No I changed the map back to 91 Octane.

I Vdynoed at 199hp/256lbs and 234hp/263lbs for data log 1 and 2 respectively.

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 Old 07-25-2013, 03:05 PM   #38
 
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I've never seen +10% LTFTs on one of @Lex;'s JBR specific maps, they are usually spot on - maybe it's something to do with your CAI getting turbulence? I'm grasping here, but I don't see too many people running them.

That 2nd log doesn't really look all that bad for the apparently shitty fuel and the persistent KR in the meat of your torque production, but you're certainly not making good power. You might need meth to get this sorted.
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 Old 07-25-2013, 03:26 PM   #39
 
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Originally Posted by JgamB View Post
I've never seen +10% LTFTs on one of @Lex;'s JBR specific maps, they are usually spot on - maybe it's something to do with your CAI getting turbulence? I'm grasping here, but I don't see too many people running them.

That 2nd log doesn't really look all that bad for the apparently shitty fuel and the persistent KR in the meat of your torque production, but you're certainly not making good power. You might need meth to get this sorted.
I had +10% LTFTs with the JBR/Stratified Map but I was using a CS SRI. It actually caused me to overboost to almost 21 PSI and I was making close to 300 HP on the VDyno.
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 Old 07-25-2013, 05:04 PM   #40
 
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Originally Posted by himurax13 View Post
I had +10% LTFTs with the JBR/Stratified Map but I was using a CS SRI. It actually caused me to overboost to almost 21 PSI and I was making close to 300 HP on the VDyno.
Lol - I meant with the Powerpath intakes / appropriate MAF housing diameter.
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