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 Old 04-06-2011, 09:56 AM   #441
 
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I actually haven't gone to the trouble to do that yet. My MAF held 11.76 perfectly, and that's what I want to go back to when I get a pump, so I've just left it to make sure that that's where it will stay and I don't have to figure out how to change it back. It just seems like an unnecessary step for my future plans since it's not getting into dangerously lean conditions.
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 Old 04-06-2011, 10:44 AM   #442
 
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Just in case people are wondering about the afr dictated vs. that seen in the exhaust stream (aka actual afr logged vs target afr)

italics below from the ATR helpfile:

This comparison only relates if you have an intake system that is other than stock; if your dictated A/F is 11.0 and you measure 12.0 in the exhaust
stream, then you will want to add (+) grams/sec for the MAF voltage that corresponds for that RPM and load point. The specific adjustment for the above
situation should be multiplying the corresponding MAF flow grams/sec by 1.0909 = 12/11. You should be measuring very close to the same Lambda (A/F
Ratio) in your exhaust stream that you have dictated in your Fuel OL/WOT Commanded EQ (No Knock) table.
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 Old 04-06-2011, 11:02 AM   #443
 
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Originally Posted by Nataphen View Post
I actually haven't gone to the trouble to do that yet. My MAF held 11.76 perfectly, and that's what I want to go back to when I get a pump, so I've just left it to make sure that that's where it will stay and I don't have to figure out how to change it back. It just seems like an unnecessary step for my future plans since it's not getting into dangerously lean conditions.
Looking at your datalog, your AFR jumps from 11.76 to 11.91 to 12.05. I guess we can assume that you're seeing an average of these numbers, which happens to be 11.91? If you're targeting 12, you're within 1% of that. So if I'm understanding correctly, you wouldn't need to adjust your MAF tables at all.

@rfinkle2 thanks for the help on that. I read over that section in the helpfile, and a light bulb turned on in my head. I realized I had more work to do after my MAF calibration.

I'm running on the 93 octane at about 11.3:1 right now, and @Nataphen is right. It really has helped with the fuel pressure. I'm going to lean it more and see how the FP does.
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 Old 04-06-2011, 01:37 PM   #444
 
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So I switched up my map to the 93 oct.
I was debating on whether to try it or not bc almost every station out here has 91, but the philips 66 have 93, but it has 10% ethanol added (so I would guess it is 91 + ethanol = 93?).
I am getting less knock is the good thing. Bad is that I am really maxing out the wgdc, and not hitting nearly as many g/s as before.
These logs are from the OTS map, so I will apply all of the changes I did to the 91 to this one and see what happens.
1 is gear 3-4-5
2 is just 4th
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 Old 04-06-2011, 04:10 PM   #445
 
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With the Stage 1 OTS I have also had a problem overboosting +2psi but with my mods Cobb considers me Stage 2. Now I have the opposite problem as you guys with the Stage 2 OTS I'm underboosting ~2-3psi. So what I did was take the WGDC of the Stage 1 map and copied it to the Stage 2 map. Now my logs look great. I'll post the logs when I find them....I've posted them somewhere on the forums.

Logs before adjusted WGDC: 2010 MAZDASPEED3 AccessPORT Available Now!

Log after adjusted WGDC: New england dyno meat?
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 Old 04-07-2011, 06:10 PM   #446
 
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Nate - sorry I didn't respond sooner, but a HPFP changed my LTFT's from <+/- 3% to +/- 4%. Now I know that isn't huge, but the extra fuel does seem to throw off trims some.

Just a heads up for when you do install your fuel pump.

Don't you have those PTP internals from when you wanted to do e85? What happened to those?
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 Old 04-07-2011, 07:08 PM   #447
 
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The PTP thing never happened. Joe decided that he didn't want to risk doing business with PTP John. Thanks for the heads up about the fuel trims, I was thinking that there may be a need for MAF recal after that swap. I am still planning to do e85 sometime, but frankly, I've just run out of extra cash to spend. Hence all the tuning around the stock fuel pump.
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 Old 04-07-2011, 07:33 PM   #448
 
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Originally Posted by Nataphen View Post
The PTP thing never happened. Joe decided that he didn't want to risk doing business with PTP John. Thanks for the heads up about the fuel trims, I was thinking that there may be a need for MAF recal after that swap. I am still planning to do e85 sometime, but frankly, I've just run out of extra cash to spend. Hence all the tuning around the stock fuel pump.
Well, as far as e85, there is some hope for that - the only roadblock I see to running 100% is our injectors. DI needs tons more fuel to achieve the correct lambdas for running e85 (I remember reading in the stickied thread over in the gen 1 forums "driver311's attempt at e85" I think) - IIRC hal said that while PI only needs roughly 30% more fuel, DI requires almost 2x as much to work properly.

There are guys raising fuel pressure, and with the high pressure sensor upgrade option, HPRV, etc., the biggest obstacle right now is getting injectors that can open under 2200-2500+ psi. Again, this is if I'm understand all of what I've read correctly.

About the stock fuel pump, IMO it is quite good - the problem we're seeing with it is that when fuel pressure drops just slightly, there's a cascading effect. Although, being in texas, in the summer, you should be able to hold fuel pressure a-ok. The stuff that causes our pumps to drop pressure so sharply is a combination of high boost + winter temps from what I can tell.
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 Old 04-07-2011, 09:50 PM   #449
 
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I'm playing with some of my own theories, as well as finkle's max enrichment table theory, and FRP seems to hold all the time at any boost and any RPM now. The only drop that I'm seeing is during WOT shifts, and when Cobb releases the FFS table for gen 2, that won't be a worry any longer. This was running higher targets than what I plan, but I was just testing the theories. It seems to keep the pump pressures up to 1600+psi, and I'll be running 1psi lower targets normally. I don't know if it will hold in temps down to 40-50* like my tune that I pulled 277 g/s, but this one is only slightly higher boost and less timing.

When I get a pump, I will reset the max enrichment tables to what they were because this form of tuning effectively removes one of your fail safes. Do this at your own risk, and always have an eye on KR and be ready to back out quickly.
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 Old 04-09-2011, 12:05 PM   #450
 
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I found something interesting today. Take a look at this log. As soon as I made the transition from CL to OL, the AFR became insanely rich for some reason. It stays that way for a couple seconds until the fuel pump can't keep up anymore, and the fuel pressure drops off to about 900 psi. I was at partial throttle when the AFR fell to about 10:1, then went WOT, and that's about when the fuel pressure dropped. I have changed the OL to kick in at 1.20 calculated load. I haven't touched the max enrichment table yet. What would cause the AFR to become so rich like that? I've done a MAF calibration and normally my AFR is very close to what it should be.
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 Old 04-09-2011, 12:17 PM   #451
 
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Originally Posted by indianaryan View Post
I found something interesting today. Take a look at this log. As soon as I made the transition from CL to OL, the AFR became insanely rich for some reason. It stays that way for a couple seconds until the fuel pump can't keep up anymore, and the fuel pressure drops off to about 900 psi. I was at partial throttle when the AFR fell to about 10:1, then went WOT, and that's about when the fuel pressure dropped. I have changed the OL to kick in at 1.20 calculated load. I haven't touched the max enrichment table yet. What would cause the AFR to become so rich like that? I've done a MAF calibration and normally my AFR is very close to what it should be.
It is my understanding that as soon as you satisfy either throttle position or calculated load that the fuel tables used are the OL tables. Keep in mind that in between the closed loop throttle position, there are all throttle positions up to and including wot (75 throttle position).

If there is any knock, the ecu is going to use the knocking ol table also.

It looks to me that your fuel pump started to take a dumper, and then you started to get the knock counts.

That looks @ least to me like fp failure started the whole sequence, first dipping below 1400, causing small knock counts, and the whole sequence started over until the fuel pump could regain pressure.
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 Old 04-09-2011, 12:32 PM   #452
 
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Originally Posted by indianaryan View Post
I found something interesting today. Take a look at this log. As soon as I made the transition from CL to OL, the AFR became insanely rich for some reason. It stays that way for a couple seconds until the fuel pump can't keep up anymore, and the fuel pressure drops off to about 900 psi. I was at partial throttle when the AFR fell to about 10:1, then went WOT, and that's about when the fuel pressure dropped. I have changed the OL to kick in at 1.20 calculated load. I haven't touched the max enrichment table yet. What would cause the AFR to become so rich like that? I've done a MAF calibration and normally my AFR is very close to what it should be.
Thanks for posting this log....i wanted to see if anyone else is seeing there timing gradually increasing like mine....your's seems to go straight to 12* which people have said that 9*-16* is optimal for WOT on these cars mine maxes out at 7*!
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 Old 04-09-2011, 12:41 PM   #453
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
It is my understanding that as soon as you satisfy either throttle position or calculated load that the fuel tables used are the OL tables. Keep in mind that in between the closed loop throttle position, there are all throttle positions up to and including wot (75 throttle position).

If there is any knock, the ecu is going to use the knocking ol table also.

It looks to me that your fuel pump started to take a dumper, and then you started to get the knock counts.

That looks @ least to me like fp failure started the whole sequence, first dipping below 1400, causing small knock counts, and the whole sequence started over until the fuel pump could regain pressure.
That makes sense, but why did the AFR become so rich in the first place? Normally it follows the commanded AFR pretty closely. And the knocks happened after the AFR became rich. I don't know...seems like the rich AFR caused the fp drop to me.
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 Old 04-09-2011, 12:43 PM   #454
 
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To really get a good handle on the cl/ol, it is handy to log closed loop. If you look @ @indianaryan 's log, you can see "breakpoints" the ecu is using for different fuel tables (@ least I think that is what it is reporting). i.e. the 25x, 5xx, 10xx #'s are all in "chunks".

I'm going to get to the bottom of which # corresponds to what table.

It is probably just a coincidence, but they are in random access memory designations.

I.e. 256, 512, 1024
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 Old 04-09-2011, 01:01 PM   #455
 
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Originally Posted by indianaryan View Post
That makes sense, but why did the AFR become so rich in the first place? Normally it follows the commanded AFR pretty closely. And the knocks happened after the AFR became rich. I don't know...seems like the rich AFR caused the fp drop to me.
No doubt you were shooting in mad fuel @ that point. What does your table look like @ that load and rpm? OL / no knock part throttle?
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 Old 04-09-2011, 03:09 PM   #456
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
No doubt you were shooting in mad fuel @ that point. What does your table look like @ that load and rpm? OL / no knock part throttle?
Currently it's 11.6 WOT, 13.285 Part Throttle (haven't changed the OL/Part Throttle (no knock) tables.

Here's another log that I dug up back when I was using the 91 octane map. I hadn't messed with the fuel tables at all on this one.
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 Old 04-09-2011, 03:26 PM   #457
 
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You may have said earlier in the thread, but have you changed your max enrichment table yet?
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 Old 04-09-2011, 04:24 PM   #458
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
You may have said earlier in the thread, but have you changed your max enrichment table yet?
No sir. I will do that. I want to leave some room in case it knocks though. I don't like how it's getting so rich in the first place though. Very strange.
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 Old 04-09-2011, 04:47 PM   #459
 
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I think when the ECU sees the fuel pressure goes down it adds more fuel to protect itself explaining the richness. I think I read this somewhere.....I'll try and dig it up again.
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 Old 04-09-2011, 05:22 PM   #460
 
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Originally Posted by xsilent13x View Post
I think when the ECU sees the fuel pressure goes down it adds more fuel to protect itself explaining the richness. I think I read this somewhere.....I'll try and dig it up again.
Yes I've read that also. What confuses me is that it added a bunch fuel before the fp drop.
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 Old 04-09-2011, 06:25 PM   #461
 
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Try changing your load table AFRs and see if that helps. I haven't had this problem, so I wonder if the boost tune is still leaning on the load tables somewhat. I have raised my load AFRs, and I haven't encountered a problem. Since the ECU is designed around load tuning, it may be contradicting your OL fueling table targets. I changed mine from ~1.40 calculated load to 12.00 to match my OL fueling targets. Be safe, but give it a shot and see what happens.

EDIT: Sorry about seeming redundant there. I'd had a few beers last night and I was trying to make sure that I got my point across. Now that I look at it today, it looks like I'm trying to explain something to a down's syndrome kid.
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 Old 04-11-2011, 07:28 AM   #462
 
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I think that Nate may be right on target here. I have seen a big spike in afr (turns ultra rich totally ignoring the max enrichment table) when my calculated load differs from my load in the throttle required - x gear normal bat tables.


I know I am like a broken record, but they are supposed to be within .05 what is seen in atr in your logs.

FWIW, I've been adjusting my wgdc tables, and nearing the load targets (more boost) seen in atr in my logs.

Mine is / was way worse than yours probably is @indianryan , btw.

The boost on the stage 2 tune comes in way sooner than a stage 1 tune, and imo, my wgdc's are way off. It could be that I am still running the stock airbox that compounds the problem, although it is a stage 2 tune for the stock airbox.
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 Old 04-11-2011, 07:42 AM   #463
 
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Originally Posted by Nataphen View Post
Try changing your load table AFRs and see if that helps. I haven't had this problem, so I wonder if the boost tune is still leaning on the load tables somewhat. I have raised my load AFRs, and I haven't encountered a problem. Since the ECU is designed around load tuning, it may be contradicting your OL fueling table targets. I changed mine from ~1.40 calculated load to 12.00 to match my OL fueling targets. Be safe, but give it a shot and see what happens.

EDIT: Sorry about seeming redundant there. I'd had a few beers last night and I was trying to make sure that I got my point across. Now that I look at it today, it looks like I'm trying to explain something to a down's syndrome kid.
Alright thanks. I appreciate the help. I'll try changing the load AFR's and see what happens.

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
I think that Nate may be right on target here. I have seen a big spike in afr (turns ultra rich totally ignoring the max enrichment table) when my calculated load differs from my load in the throttle required - x gear normal bat tables.


I know I am like a broken record, but they are supposed to be within .05 what is seen in atr in your logs.

FWIW, I've been adjusting my wgdc tables, and nearing the load targets (more boost) seen in atr in my logs.

Mine is / was way worse than yours probably is @indianryan , btw.

The boost on the stage 2 tune comes in way sooner than a stage 1 tune, and imo, my wgdc's are way off. It could be that I am still running the stock airbox that compounds the problem, although it is a stage 2 tune for the stock airbox.
Thanks. I'll take a look at the load tables and see if they're far off. I don't what to do if they're off lol, but I'll look into it. You know, it seems like when the fuel pressure drops, it's when I'm going up an on-ramp or uphill. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.
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 Old 01-15-2012, 09:22 PM   #464
 
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i just installed autotech internal, i have a cobb tih sri
my noob question is can i run a stage 2 map with out a dp
thanks for the help
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 Old 01-15-2012, 09:36 PM   #465
 
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Think you need atleast a test pipe before running stage 2.
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 Old 01-17-2012, 07:55 PM   #466
 
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 Old 07-21-2012, 03:46 PM   #467
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well the way i see it $350 for an upgraded fuel pump is a pretty good deal it also gives you peace of mind that you know you can mod it safely to your hearts content.
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 Old 10-30-2012, 10:55 AM   #468
 
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I read so much of this thread b4 i couldn't take it anymore....my 1 question....w my current mods (see sig below)...would i befeit performance wise from a HPFP upgrade? I'm probably going to do it when I get the $$, but as of now im 100% sure my FP is fine, many many logs @ WOT nothing under 1650 PSI.
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 Old 10-31-2012, 05:02 AM   #469
 
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You didn't say what AP map you are running. Even with OTS stage 1 if you are running higher than stock boost or increased timing or fueling you are still going to be stressing the CDFP. I'd say upgrade pump internals on any gen 2 MS3 running any aftermarket tune.
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 Old 10-31-2012, 11:04 AM   #470
 
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Originally Posted by MSMS3 View Post
You didn't say what AP map you are running. Even with OTS stage 1 if you are running higher than stock boost or increased timing or fueling you are still going to be stressing the CDFP. I'd say upgrade pump internals on any gen 2 MS3 running any aftermarket tune.
I'm running the stage 1 meant to be with Cobb SRI no other mods (sides JBR heavy shift knob/Sure Shortcut)
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 Old 01-14-2013, 09:05 AM   #471
 
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currently i am running a intake, turbo inlet, 65mm test pipe, itv-22 plugs, with a accessport tuned to 287 whp and 351 lbs of torque, i just ordered a cobb fmic, waiting to install until the spring. so far according to the shop i use my fuel pump is fine so im not sure if i should order the 3' downpipe and 3' exhaust or go with the fuel pump. input would be great oh ya and im runnogn 18 psi buit during runs i am usually seeing a 19
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 Old 01-14-2013, 09:37 AM   #472
 
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Originally Posted by lucaspochylko View Post
currently i am running a intake, turbo inlet, 65mm test pipe, itv-22 plugs, with a accessport tuned to 287 whp and 351 lbs of torque, i just ordered a cobb fmic, waiting to install until the spring. so far according to the shop i use my fuel pump is fine so im not sure if i should order the 3' downpipe and 3' exhaust or go with the fuel pump. input would be great oh ya and im runnogn 18 psi buit during runs i am usually seeing a 19
You're doing it wrong. Take a fourth gear log from 2500 rpm to redline, if your HPFP Act. drops below 1600 psi during that log, then you need internals. You probably already need them based on your mod list. Order some Autotech's right meow.
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 Old 01-14-2013, 09:48 AM   #473
 
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and if it stays above 1600 is there anyway to know if it will be ale to handle the ic
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 Old 01-14-2013, 09:50 AM   #474
 
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Your Fuel pump will not be able to take it... stop asking stupid questions. Get some internals... The data shows you will max it out/wear it out with the extra load. You should have done the HPFP upgrade before you did anything because you are stressing the shit out of it so its just a matter of time. OR you could just do the upgrades you want and we can read about your fails.
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 Old 01-14-2013, 10:19 AM   #475
 
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Originally Posted by lucaspochylko View Post
and if it stays above 1600 is there anyway to know if it will be ale to handle the ic
If you are not already seeing low FP, then you most likely will with the IC because it will flow better than the stock top mount. You are already on the very edge of what the stock internals can handle. Just get internals before you become a cautionary tale of how not to mod Mazdaspeeds. Just because a "shop" told you something does not make it true.
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 Old 01-14-2013, 10:39 AM   #476
 
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What "IF"...on a 4th gear WOT log from 3k- to redline...u see it spike down to 1590 PSI for a fraction of a second - meaning on just one of the lines in the log on Excel it does this...the line before and after it its roughly 1650 PSI...

My mod list is in my sig, im trying to be a cheap ass and sell my stock tires and use the money for that for internals.
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 Old 01-14-2013, 10:45 AM   #477
 
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You are probably fine for a single cell drop into the high 1500's but I would take it as a sign that you are on the edge of what your paticular stock internals can handle. Some cars can handle more than others. Best thing you can do if in doubt is log regularly until you get internals to make sure your pressure is holding up.
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 Old 01-14-2013, 10:46 AM   #478
 
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What if someone covered your snorkle for half a second when your taking a breath while going snorkling?
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 Old 01-14-2013, 12:01 PM   #479
 
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you'd be fine, but it might startle you. Is that what ur dad use to do to u when u were a kid? lol

Originally Posted by ASHMS3 View Post
You are probably fine for a single cell drop into the high 1500's but I would take it as a sign that you are on the edge of what your paticular stock internals can handle. Some cars can handle more than others. Best thing you can do if in doubt is log regularly until you get internals to make sure your pressure is holding up.
Gotcha, im crazy OCD about my car, I log like twice a month, I only put about 100-200 miles on my car a month max.
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Originally Posted by thomas_cory2000 View Post
you'd be fine, but it might startle you. Is that what ur dad use to do to u when u were a kid? lol
nah he just held me under the water till I stopped struggling lmao...
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