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 Old 09-06-2011, 02:55 PM   #1
 
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Default If Fuel Pumps are necessary, why no TSB?

One thing that boggles my mind about this platform is, we have these Einstein-moments where someone discovers the missing link to our successes:

to name a few...not in any particular order either
1. OEM BPV doesn't hold pressure - ZOMG, replace BPV IMMEDIATELY!
2. WOT at low RPM blows motors - ZOMG, never accelerate below certain RPMS!
3. Balance Shaft causes problems - ZOMG, perform BSD nowz!!
4. Fuel Pump drops below 1400 PSI - ZOMG, RAID HPFP INTERNAL SUPPLIES NOW!

I mean, seriously. It starts to seem like it's just the trend of the week. Add intake, stare at datalogs, buy more parts.

So here's a curveball for you: If our FP's are weak from OEM - why has no one taken this valuable information and shared it with dealers/NHTSA to advise concerns for TSB? If it's extremely relevant to the life of our cars, I would imagine we should be sharing these concerns with Mazda dealerships so Mazda NA can take a closer look and possibly develop/research a fix for this.

Rather than everyone taking their brand new car's fuel pump and altering it and ultimately making these aftermarket's filthy fucking rich over a fix we imagine we need.

Discuss faggots.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 02:57 PM   #2
 
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i like where this is going
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 Old 09-06-2011, 02:58 PM   #3
 
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Default

Fuel pump works fine for stock cars.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 02:58 PM   #4
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Because, the OEM fuel pump will support the stock boost level, and stock airflow rates of the motor. It is not mazda's problem that we upgrade parts of the motor and then other parts become inadequate.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 02:59 PM   #5
 
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Default

Originally Posted by ahskeetz View Post
i like where this is going
Thanks, kind sir. I'm serious when I say it. Enough with the bullshit theories and imaginary panic mods. Let's actually better our platform instead of depending on COBB as our only source of savior. I personally don't feel like buying a fucking fuel pump just because 300 fuckers who stare at AP's/Dashhawks say ZOMG LESS THAN 1400 PSI FUCK!!!!!!!
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:00 PM   #6
 
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Default

for every fuel pump that fails on a modded car, theres two fully stock cars driving around with 0 issues.

If issues arise and your FP fails under warranty...well thats what the warranty is for.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:00 PM   #7
 
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Originally Posted by G26 View Post
Because, the OEM fuel pump will support the stock boost level, and stock airflow rates of the motor. It is not mazda's problem that we upgrade parts of the motor and then other parts become inadequate.
enough said.. end of thread.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:01 PM   #8
 
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Default

HPFP works fine when we're unmodded. That is mazda's only concern.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:02 PM   #9
 
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Default

Not gonna happen, unless they start failing under stock conditions.

All cars Ive modded in the past needed FP upgrades. Nature of the game.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:06 PM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by NCZ13 View Post
for every fuel pump that fails on a modded car, theres two fully stock cars driving around with 0 issues.

If issues arise and your FP fails under warranty...well thats what the warranty is for.
yup, yup...not Mazda's problem
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:07 PM   #11
 
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Just like the audi and vdubs have to do the same thing, our cars are built for what they put in the engine. Any modding after that is the owners problem not the manufacturer.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:08 PM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by Silver Ecstasy View Post
One thing that boggles my mind about this platform is, we have these Einstein-moments where someone discovers the missing link to our successes:

to name a few...not in any particular order either
1. OEM BPV doesn't hold pressure - ZOMG, replace BPV IMMEDIATELY!
2. WOT at low RPM blows motors - ZOMG, never accelerate below certain RPMS!
3. Balance Shaft causes problems - ZOMG, perform BSD nowz!!
4. Fuel Pump drops below 1400 PSI - ZOMG, RAID HPFP INTERNAL SUPPLIES NOW!

I mean, seriously. It starts to seem like it's just the trend of the week. Add intake, stare at datalogs, buy more parts.

So here's a curveball for you: If our FP's are weak from OEM - why has no one taken this valuable information and shared it with dealers/NHTSA to advise concerns for TSB? If it's extremely relevant to the life of our cars, I would imagine we should be sharing these concerns with Mazda dealerships so Mazda NA can take a closer look and possibly develop/research a fix for this.

Rather than everyone taking their brand new car's fuel pump and altering it and ultimately making these aftermarket's filthy fucking rich over a fix we imagine we need.

Discuss faggots.
Because it isn't an issue on a stock car.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:15 PM   #13
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Arrow There is a...

...TSB on the fuel pumps for Gen.1... TSB 01-02208 CDFP-1 (pdf attached).

Also see the link below (for various other bulletins):

Finish Line / Rosenthal Mazda Parts & Accessories—::—Mazda3 Bulletins

By the way, if your stock BPV "leaks" you can get a new (superceded) stock BPV relatively cheap.

A new stock BPV will hold pressure up to 20psi according to the local Mazda guru.

My good deed for the day... done.
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File Type: pdf TSB 01-02208 CDFP-1[1].pdf (100.8 KB, 78 views)
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:16 PM   #14
 
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Common sense isn't so common, you want Mazda to give you tsb on stock tires because you like to roast em , or how bout a tsb for your clutch when you burn through it at 15k..
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:19 PM   #15
 
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After I mounted solid rocket boosters to the roof of my MS3, the brakes and steering no longer worked. I want a TSB.

------------------------------------

Mods:

Cobb SRI, Cobb TIP, HKS TBE, solid rocket booster, Autotech HPFP internals, carbon fiber hood
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:20 PM   #16
 
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POINTLESS THREAD IS POINTLESS.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:25 PM   #17
 
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For someone who has been around here as long as you have I'm surprised that you would make such a stupid thread.

If you're going to make a useless thread at least make it entertaining, like the cock contest, for example.
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Originally Posted by Monotonous ONE View Post
it was a mexican

whoever said they are lazy is a stupid dumb fucking idiot

and they can do ANYTHING...they prolly got the wheels off with a branch and some hedge clippers
Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak View Post
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:33 PM   #18
 
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Because Racecar?
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 Old 09-06-2011, 03:38 PM   #19
 
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Because moron OP?
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 Old 09-06-2011, 05:14 PM   #20
 
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Originally Posted by emag remrofni View Post
For someone who has been around here as long as you have I'm surprised that you would make such a stupid thread.

If you're going to make a useless thread at least make it entertaining, like the cock contest, for example.
I see where your priorities are, gay bob.

Originally Posted by MS3go View Post
...TSB on the fuel pumps for Gen.1... TSB 01-02208 CDFP-1 (pdf attached).

Also see the link below (for various other bulletins):

Finish Line / Rosenthal Mazda Parts & Accessories—::—Mazda3 Bulletins

By the way, if your stock BPV "leaks" you can get a new (superceded) stock BPV relatively cheap.

A new stock BPV will hold pressure up to 20psi according to the local Mazda guru.

My good deed for the day... done.
This is exactly my point. It's been discussed before, so why wouldn't this apply to the 2010+'s?
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 Old 09-06-2011, 05:21 PM   #21
 
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this is one of the dumber questions i've read on here in a while.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 05:44 PM   #22
 
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and the OP is still retarded.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 05:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by MicaBlueMS3 View Post
and the OP is still retarded.
well, he did take a blow to the head.......I mean, he traded a genjuan for a genpoo
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:03 PM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by chimmike View Post
well, he did take a blow to the head.......I mean, he traded a genjuan for a genpoo
Your mom took a blow to my head.

I'll just stick to stock and enjoying my car as-is. The car is absolutely fantastic the way it was designed. However, to say that the car can't handle being modified without a fuel pump seems absolutely asinine to me. The factory ECU, plus a "high pressure fuel pump" should handle it just fine and I don't see how a drop in fuel pressure is really that big of a deal if AFR maintains either way.

My criticism is, A) is breaching 1400 psi FP really as dangerous as we're saying it is? Or B) is it just a number we dislike seeing in a modded car and the internals are just a bandaid to this.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:12 PM   #25
 
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Originally Posted by Silver Ecstasy View Post
Your mom took a blow to my head.

I'll just stick to stock and enjoying my car as-is. The car is absolutely fantastic the way it was designed. However, to say that the car can't handle being modified without a fuel pump seems absolutely asinine to me. The factory ECU, plus a "high pressure fuel pump" should handle it just fine and I don't see how a drop in fuel pressure is really that big of a deal if AFR maintains either way.

My criticism is, A) is breaching 1400 psi FP really as dangerous as we're saying it is? Or B) is it just a number we dislike seeing in a modded car and the internals are just a bandaid to this.
I think you're making too big of a deal out of this.

People like modding cars. It's a hobby. It's fun to make shit go fast. Increasing fuel flow is just one of those requirements to add more power. To push more air, you need more fuel, and in some cases the stock pump can't keep up. Yeah, we don't like the number and we don't want shit to blow, but if you drove a car that had a failing stock pump and then installed internals you would understand.
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Originally Posted by Monotonous ONE View Post
it was a mexican

whoever said they are lazy is a stupid dumb fucking idiot

and they can do ANYTHING...they prolly got the wheels off with a branch and some hedge clippers
Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak View Post
The dick bone is not connected to the asshole... Mind over matter, learn to control them both.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:15 PM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by emag remrofni View Post
I think you're making too big of a deal out of this.

People like modding cars. It's a hobby. It's fun to make shit go fast. Increasing fuel flow is just one of those requirements to add more power. To push more air, you need more fuel, and in some cases the stock pump can't keep up. Yeah, we don't like the number and we don't want shit to blow, but if you drove a car that had a failing stock pump and then installed internals you would understand.
Sir, I completely and utterly respect that.

My intent is not to start fights or immature arguments. My intent is simply to question the community's knowledge for the better - not worse. Rather than take credibility away from the people who have provided the knowledge; knowledge that has taken the platform to new heights, I'm trying to truly uncover if this is REALLY an issue or not as we make it seem.

And if it IS in fact an issue, why isn't it this an issue that should seriously be identified with Mazda.

Even if the car runs fine stock, and the fuel pressure maintains, the car still runs awfully rich and sooty, and eventually we will face O2 sensor failures, catalytic converter congestion, etc. etc. For running rich as fuck, I don't see how this inhibits a restriction in fueling when any of the mods or Pro-Tunes are simply leaning out (easing off on the system) the fuel delivery demands. If anything, the fuel pump should be able to handle it absolutely fine, since we're not commanding more fuel, just less of it across the board, and more in specific areas only.

I only hope people are able to identify this as seeking higher learning from a new perspective. Not an attack on common law.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:16 PM   #27
 
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I think it's safe to say that this car is pretty maxes out from the factory and the ultimate goal was to provide us with a reasonably priced car that performed well. A lot of the stock parts were installed with the notion of the buyer keeping the car stock.

I mean how many car manufacturer in their right mind would appease the enthusiast? You have to realize that the aftermarket/ enthusiast crowd is just a small fraction of mazda's car sales. They could give 2 fucks about what we think they should include under the tsb. We are the ones pushing these cars to the limit and not some guy who wants to have occasional fun. Most casual speed drivers never even think to swap out the rmm mount whereas we have made it our must have mod for this car.

Also remember that the internals for the gen2 are actually supposed to be better. However, the gen2 logic is different which causes the stocker to fail prematurely. I would love to go into my Mazda dealership fully bolted bitching about loss in fp.
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Every performance car I ever owned required a bigger fuel pump once you modded past a certain level. I had an intake and test pipe on my speed3 with stock fuel pump and pressure was holding fine...but going to the next level I will not take the chance. On my mustang I installed a supercharger and had to fork over big $$ to upgrade the fuel system to GT500specs....my tuner, Jon Lund, one of the best in the country, wouldn't touch my car without the fuel system in place....and he was not selling the fuel system...it was for safety reasons. Point is...sometimes it is a needed upgrade, sometimes it is a precautionary upgrade, but it is not snake oil. And non of my cars ever had the factory reccomend I upgarde my fuel pump when modding my car via a TSB...that's like giving the green light to modify outside the defined parameters the manufacturer made the car for.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:22 PM   #29
 
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Originally Posted by dizzydtrain View Post
I think it's safe to say that this car is pretty maxes out from the factory and the ultimate goal was to provide us with a reasonably priced car that performed well. A lot of the stock parts were installed with the notion of the buyer keeping the car stock.

I mean how many car manufacturer in their right mind would appease the enthusiast? You have to realize that the aftermarket/ enthusiast crowd is just a small fraction of mazda's car sales. They could give 2 fucks about what we think they should include under the tsb. We are the ones pushing these cars to the limit and not some guy who wants to have occasional fun. Most casual speed drivers never even think to swap out the rmm mount whereas we have made it our must have mod for this car.

Also remember that the internals for the gen2 are actually supposed to be better. However, the gen2 logic is different which causes the stocker to fail prematurely. I would love to go into my Mazda dealership fully bolted bitching about loss in fp.
Allow me to continue with your logic for a moment.

-fully bolted bitching about loss in FP

I definitely am not saying this. That's obviously a retarded thing to do or expect to do. Wouldn't recommend anyone do this.

-maxes out from the factory

Most, if not all cars, are utterly de-tuned from the factory. It's common knowledge that there is always room to improve on a completely bone stock car, if even by tuning some of the emissions-based, or MPG-based features down a tad. As Vicky Tan explained, evening a tune out to a near 11.5 AFR instead of 9.5's would still yield SAFE, RELIABLE power.

My logic is, if the car handles 9.5 AFR's just fine (overfueling, overworking the system), then leaning it out resulting in more power should be absolutely no issue. That's my logic.

Now, with regards to increasing boost pressure, obviously, no one can expect to run 20PSI without internals and some major supporting mods. But to make the car breathe better and fuel more efficiently should yield great results. But with constant stress over the PID FUEL PRESSURE, I feel like we're only creating a false sense of panic that something is completely and utterly wrong and we're all going to blow up unless we swap internals asap.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:22 PM   #30
 
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As emag said, it's a hobby and a choice. No one is forced to mod and you can't point fingers at car manufacturers for creating a car that performs well at stock levels without future expansion in mind.

It's a business after all and if it were in their best interest they would have made a pump that could handle 6000 psi.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:23 PM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 View Post
Every performance car I ever owned required a bigger fuel pump once you modded past a certain level. I had an intake and test pipe on my speed3 with stock fuel pump and pressure was holding fine...but going to the next level I will not take the chance. On my mustang I installed a supercharger and had to fork over big $$ to upgrade the fuel system to GT500specs....my tuner, Jon Lund, one of the best in the country, wouldn't touch my car without the fuel system in place....and he was not selling the fuel system...it was for safety reasons. Point is...sometimes it is a needed upgrade, sometimes it is a precautionary upgrade, but it is not snake oil. And non of my cars ever had the factory reccomend I upgarde my fuel pump when modding my car via a TSB...that's like giving the green light to modify outside the defined parameters the manufacturer made the car for.
Thank you for your post - but I am not suggesting that Mazda publish a TSB to cover modded cars.

My point was, if the FP is an issue, it should be an issue stock or modded. And Mazda should identify this just as they did with the 1st Gen.

Otherwise, thank you for your perspective!
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:27 PM   #32
 
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Perhaps the fuel pump is much like the turbo...pretty much maxed out from the factory. The K04 is a rather undersized turbo for our motor, it was designed for smaller displacement motors. Mazda has alot of parts on the car factory that are "good enough" and that's about it...exceed threshold and all hell breaks loose. Gen 1 shocks/struts, earlier BPV, Fuel Pump, Turbo, hell, the dam rear swaybar end links (nuts come loose with less than 1000k miles on new car...mine included, etc etc. I have never seen a TSB about the sway bar end link nut, but I can only imagine this could wreak havoc on our cars...mine was so loose i could unscrew it by hand.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:27 PM   #33
 
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Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 View Post
Every performance car I ever owned required a bigger fuel pump once you modded past a certain level. I had an intake and test pipe on my speed3 with stock fuel pump and pressure was holding fine...but going to the next level I will not take the chance. On my mustang I installed a supercharger and had to fork over big $$ to upgrade the fuel system to GT500specs....my tuner, Jon Lund, one of the best in the country, wouldn't touch my car without the fuel system in place....and he was not selling the fuel system...it was for safety reasons. Point is...sometimes it is a needed upgrade, sometimes it is a precautionary upgrade, but it is not snake oil. And non of my cars ever had the factory reccomend I upgarde my fuel pump when modding my car via a TSB...that's like giving the green light to modify outside the defined parameters the manufacturer made the car for.
You got rid of a supercharged mustang for a grocery getting hatchback?
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 Old 09-06-2011, 09:29 PM   #34
 
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LOL Hell no I did not...The stang is in the garage getting major engine and transmission surgery 6 speed, forged motor, and lots of boost=700hp of pure fun!!!

And Silver Ecstasy, for what its worth, stock fuel pump I had 11.7 AFRs commanded, 17.25psi, Test Pipe, and Turbo Inlet Pipe, and Cpe Intake...no issues. So there is some "room" to open up the restrictive factory tune with the stock fuel pump.
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 Old 09-06-2011, 10:17 PM   #35
 
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Originally Posted by mrmonk7663 View Post
LOL Hell no I did not...The stang is in the garage getting major engine and transmission surgery 6 speed, forged motor, and lots of boost=700hp of pure fun!!!

And Silver Ecstasy, for what its worth, stock fuel pump I had 11.7 AFRs commanded, 17.25psi, Test Pipe, and Turbo Inlet Pipe, and Cpe Intake...no issues. So there is some "room" to open up the restrictive factory tune with the stock fuel pump.
Thank god...would have been the biggest fail downgrade ever.
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 Old 09-07-2011, 04:49 AM   #36
 
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LOL. I had an Isuzu Vehicross and the mustang and they both failed within a week...so I bought a CX-7 for a DD, then decided upon the speed3 for DD duties
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 Old 09-07-2011, 05:24 AM   #37
 
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Originally Posted by Silver Ecstasy View Post
Allow me to continue with your logic for a moment.

-fully bolted bitching about loss in FP

I definitely am not saying this. That's obviously a retarded thing to do or expect to do. Wouldn't recommend anyone do this.

-maxes out from the factory

Most, if not all cars, are utterly de-tuned from the factory. It's common knowledge that there is always room to improve on a completely bone stock car, if even by tuning some of the emissions-based, or MPG-based features down a tad. As Vicky Tan explained, evening a tune out to a near 11.5 AFR instead of 9.5's would still yield SAFE, RELIABLE power.

My logic is, if the car handles 9.5 AFR's just fine (overfueling, overworking the system), then leaning it out resulting in more power should be absolutely no issue. That's my logic.

Now, with regards to increasing boost pressure, obviously, no one can expect to run 20PSI without internals and some major supporting mods. But to make the car breathe better and fuel more efficiently should yield great results. But with constant stress over the PID FUEL PRESSURE, I feel like we're only creating a false sense of panic that something is completely and utterly wrong and we're all going to blow up unless we swap internals asap.
the logic about AFR's is not as easy as it seems....just because an AFR is leaner doesnt mean less fuel is being used.....it is a ratio....it is entirely possible to target a leaner AFR and infact use MORE fuel in the system......it is all about how much air is being utilized

we commonly say that the DP is the key mod in all of this....as i understand that frees up a ton of air flow.....so it very well may be that even though we are now in the 11's we are in fact dumping more fuel than we ever did at the low 10's just due to the massive increase of air flow
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 Old 09-07-2011, 05:46 AM   #38
 
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Originally Posted by TRex View Post
the logic about AFR's is not as easy as it seems....just because an AFR is leaner doesnt mean less fuel is being used.....it is a ratio....it is entirely possible to target a leaner AFR and infact use MORE fuel in the system......it is all about how much air is being utilized

we commonly say that the DP is the key mod in all of this....as i understand that frees up a ton of air flow.....so it very well may be that even though we are now in the 11's we are in fact dumping more fuel than we ever did at the low 10's just due to the massive increase of air flow
This would boil down to the PIDS "Commanded AFR" along with "Actual AFR" correct?

As long as Actual AFR's were within perspective, having an accurate air/fuel mix would mean the fuel was being provided or not? At least, that's the way I see it?

For example, if Commanded AFR is 11.5, and Actual AFR is 12.5 - this would logically seem that either the Fuel Pump cannot keep up, or there is a restriction in air. Since restriction in air would be ruled out (given an aftermarket Intake), then that would point to the FP.

Now, if Commanded AFR is 11.5, and the Actual AFR is 11.0 or less, then, this would only mean the FP has more than enough capability stock, and tuning would only provide more fruitful.

Again, i'm humble enough to admit I am using very loose logic on this, but hoping to gain knowledge on this topic. I simply refuse to follow the status-quo without doing the research. And I also refuse to turn into a Dashhawk stare-a-holic.
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 Old 09-07-2011, 06:13 AM   #39
 
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Originally Posted by Silver Ecstasy View Post
Your mom took a blow to my head.

I'll just stick to stock and enjoying my car as-is. The car is absolutely fantastic the way it was designed. However, to say that the car can't handle being modified without a fuel pump seems absolutely asinine to me. The factory ECU, plus a "high pressure fuel pump" should handle it just fine and I don't see how a drop in fuel pressure is really that big of a deal if AFR maintains either way.

My criticism is, A) is breaching 1400 psi FP really as dangerous as we're saying it is? Or B) is it just a number we dislike seeing in a modded car and the internals are just a bandaid to this.
When the stock fp fails (it seems that 18-18.5 psi is too much draw), afr's are forced into the 9's and things spiral negatively from there. The ecu logic is such that we lose complete control of fueling if fp dips below 1600 psi @ wot.

Below is an excerpt from a Cobb document that explains their research...

The Gen2 platforms appear to have very different logic when it comes to fueling during boost spool up. The Gen2 platform demonstrates a very different response when DI Fuel Pressre drops. As DI Fuel Pressure drops below ~1600psi on the Gen2 platform, the ECU will immediately increase fueling by increasing the Injector Pulse Width (IPW)...which puts increased demands on the fueling system further dropping the DI Fuel Pressure. The additional fuel is a good safety measure, but this behavior makes it so Stage1 (S1) calibrations will be calibrated to stay within the capacity of the stock Camshaft DrivenFuel Pump (CDFP) and not calibrated to their full performance potential. Yes, a S1 vehicle with a upgraded CDFP will likely be able to make more power because more boost can be safely generated and higher DI Fuel Pressure can be targeted. This also means that no Stage2 (S2) calibrations will be created using the stock CDFP unless users want to have boost limited to ~14psi.
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 Old 09-07-2011, 07:00 AM   #40
 
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What the fuck do you think a TSB is gonna do for you? TSB is to help dealers diagnose and fix some common issues that happen on STOCK cars. It is NOT a recall (nor should there be one for the pump in this case) and if you're out of warranty it comes out of your pocket TSB or not. A failing HPFP is pretty easy for a tech to diagnose and fix anyhow so I really don't know what you're complaining about here.
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