Pre Turbo meth/Turbo life

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I didn't see any before/after data maxing out the K04...just references to road racing use... Is it posted somewhere else?

No data. I was referring to his use in general pre-turbo.

I plan on running the same exact map that I am running now first with meth off, then immediately turning it on and logging the same exact map, so I will have some hard data.

My turbo in the cold is only good for 270 g/s, so if I can pick up a few g/s and have lower iat's, I'll be happy.

This summer heat killed my HP and I hope to be able to combat that next summer.

[Lex]

cld12pk2go, what is the density increase of air per mass of methanol evaporated? You can probably give us a better idea given your chemistry background.

From what I've read for each 1% by mass methanol evaporated you see about a 3% air density increase and the vapor takes up around 1% of the overall volume leaving you with around 2% increase in mass density and thus flow.

[Dust]

Turbo "S" - Water Injection installation instructions - Sept '88

Originally Posted by helmetface I've always read that meth sprayed directly at the turbo actually deteriorates the blades. However, I believe the length of time it would take would be extensively longer than the life of the turbo.

The info I read about the system posted above noted that the system extended the life of the turbo, in comparison to the same turbo being run at the same boost pressure without the injection. Kinda backed up here.
Water Injection in Commercial Aircraft Investigated for Increasing Engine Life and Reducing Costs and Emissions

Originally Posted by mtnrunner I would be worried about meth pooling up in the intercooler. one big backfire and the whole thing will exploderate.

I had a slanted top mount with a bung at the bottom corner of the TMIC, and never got any moisture with a 7 psi turn on via a 1 gph nozzle from a 140 psi pump through a VG42 turbo (1 1/8” inlet) (not an MS3 or 6). Because of the temperature increase, the liquid should phase change in the turbo and be gas by the time it gets out. The engine and driving cycle makes sure that the TMIC is never cool.

Originally Posted by dpolseno41 The craziest part to think about is how water weighs more than methanol, thus what Haltech pointed out, if spraying any water, it can fuck your impellers couch. Although it would probably still take a long ass time.

Water weighs more than methanol, and it also has a higher surface tension than methanol. That means all else equal, the methanol will be finer than the water. Surface tension drops greatly when adding methanol up to the 70%W 30%M ratio, as posted on the aquamist site.

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go If you try to inject way up stream you will be at great risk of having the mist collect and create a stream of drips going into the compressor, which will erode it in very short order. Mist won't hurt the blades, but drips will kill them. You must inject somewhere to assure that the mist won't be able to hit ledges at couplers or bends and form drips.

Devil’s Own posted that the mist from there smaller nozzles is in the 30 micron area, smaller than the absolute micron filtration of most air filters. I installed mine at the furthest point of the straight pipe to the turbo.

Originally Posted by K.Mah Good deal! Ill be switching to 100% meth or isopropyl when I go pre turbo.

If you can get methanol, I would send you that way. There is a big difference between methanol and ISO when it comes to injection and tuning. The military lost airplane engines tuned for methanol when the ground crew used ISO (de-icer) instead. I can find the article if you are interested. It was on the aquamist.co.uk site I think.

Originally Posted by Mizzle Why not directly after the turbo, allowing it to expand and cool the now-heated air and use the turbo as a one-way check valve to prevent the extra "boost," from backing out?

There was a member on the aquamist site that tried pre-IC injection, and noted some minimum gains, but you are intentionally saturating your IC, and risking problems from water in the IC (freezing, backflowing into the turbo, flowing into the TB, etc)

Originally Posted by ms3blackmica Nothing is going to stop the hot side from reaching temps over 1500°F. The cooling of meth or alcohol pre-turbo will only work to cool the air.

Removing heat from the air will remove heat from the turbo, and increasing efficiency (less speed for same flow) will increase the longevity of the turbo, as I mentioned above. My IM got cold because of the methanol I was using. The methanol removes the heat from the air (and pipes). I can't think of any reason that the cooling of my IM would be any different than the cooling of a turbo.

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go By increasing the density and thus massflow, this will actually increase the torque loading on the shaft spinning the compressor if you are still going full tilt. It certainly will not extend the life of the turbo.

At what point does decreasing speed of turbo overcome the increase in load on the turbo?

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go You want the IC to knock down as much temp as it can then inject meth to drop to or below ambient, which no A2A IC can do.

If I may, you want the incoming air to be as cool as possible, independent of whatever safe way you get there. Making the IC less efficient only matters if you are starting with the same incoming air temp. I’ll take a 50C drop in air temps starting at 100C over an 85C drop at 150C everyday of the week. Spray pre-turbo to decrease the amount of heat put into the compressed air, allow the IC to do it's thing, then spray it again after the IC as it gets into the engine.

[ms3blackmica]

Originally Posted by Dust Removing heat from the air will remove heat from the turbo, and increasing efficiency (less speed for same flow) will increase the longevity of the turbo, as I mentioned above. My IM got cold because of the methanol I was using. The methanol removes the heat from the air (and pipes). I can't think of any reason that the cooling of my IM would be any different than the cooling of a turbo.

We are using the methanol to remove heat (as well as moisture) from the incoming air that is going into the compressor. The OP did ask if spraying methanol/alochol will "prolong the life of the turbo by reducing that heat and decreasing the rate at which it getting warped?" His question is a valid one. But..

You have to think about how fast methanol (or alcohol) is being sprayed and then sucked into the compressor housing and then fed off into the intercooler and ultimately the engine. As the methanol evaporates, air is the immediate surrounding. The evaporation of methanol will certainlly do great things to the charged air. But understand that the temperature of the air leaving the turbo is no where near as high as the temperature of the turbine/center shaft of the turbo. cld12pk2go also brought up an excellent point on the torque loading of the impellar but thats a different story.

In regards to cooling, spraying methanal pre-turbo is not going to reduce the temperature to any beneficial amount of the moving parts inside the center housing where longevity of the bearings, shaft, and seals are crucial.

You also have to think about the differential between the cooling capacity of the methanol being sprayed and the temperature of the turbo at WOT.

This is a bit over-dramatic with our k04, but do you think spraying methanol into the compressor side of this turbo is going to help cool the turbo itself by any beneficial amount? The rate at which exhaust gasses are adding heat to the turbo, is much greater than the rate of heat removal that the evaporization of methanol can provide.

[Dust]

Do I think it will cool it beneficially, yes, if you are using "no spray" as a control. Measurable, I don't know what to use to get in there and measure. Using another nozzle after the IC will drop temperatures more, and the water will drop EGTs, which will drop the amount of red you get in the turbo at WOT. MSD sells water methanol for exhausts if you are really worried about a glowing turbo.

[amggilly305]

Originally Posted by Dust Do I think it will cool it beneficially, yes, if you are using "no spray" as a control. Measurable, I don't know what to use to get in there and measure. Using another nozzle after the IC will drop temperatures more, and the water will drop EGTs, which will drop the amount of red you get in the turbo at WOT. MSD sells water methanol for exhausts if you are really worried about a glowing turbo.

let us know how that works for you

[Haltech]

Also remember how quickly methanol can evaporate in heat it's evaporation is an effect of cooling the volumetric air it occupies.

To take advantage of pre meth, you want to get as close to the impeller as possible. This also holds true when using it as secondary fueling as well (close to tbody)

Placing the nozzle as far back down stream will not yield the best benefits.

Now I did some testing in early 2008 with pre turbo but cannot find the dash hawk logs. Here is a breakdown of what I learned.

IAT.. My IAT's would climb and climb and climb doing back to back 4th gear pulls without pre turbo injection. Outside temps were 74f and My IAT's were 189f by the end of the run. They started in the mid 160s. What does this tell you? Heatsoak... Even while moving... Granted, it's not the type of heat soak we see with our intercoolers. However, it's the type of heat soak that affects us by losing power...

Now.. Once I plugged the pre turbo nozzle in.... I reran the tests... I was using a DO1 nozzle... Same 4th gear pulls back to back placed my IAT's at 162f... And it NEVER climbed. Not once. So, the heatsoak on the hot side stopped immediately.


Now I also want to bring up one Important point and result... Boost increased. I picked up 2psi on the top end. Since our tuning was a risk back then, I stopped running pre injection. Granted, your results will vary based on elevation, turbo, type of methanol and its mixture. Some feel water works best for them pre turbo. I feel it's a lot more dangerous due to possible impeller damage. Some like a 50/50 or various mixture. I prefer 100% here.

You BT guys may want to just start out with a 2 gallon nozzle right off the bat. Also, if you do not have a large reservoir, now would be a good time to invest in one. This will also allow you to place your pump directly next to the reservoir and run your check valve from there



rfinkle2

Check this out if you truely want dead center impeller injection. I can't say the benefits are worth the effort, but it gives you an idea of the type of fittings and custom hard lines you will need to pull it off.
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...tion-pre-turbo

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Lex cld12pk2go, what is the density increase of air per mass of methanol evaporated? You can probably give us a better idea given your chemistry background. From what I've read for each 1% by mass methanol evaporated you see about a 3% air density increase and the vapor takes up around 1% of the overall volume leaving you with around 2% increase in mass density and thus flow.

Math FTW.

So I ran the numbers on the delta T from injecting straight meth into the turbo using a modified version of my meth fueling calculator sheet (see yellow rows for the calcs relevant to this discussion).

Assumptions:
1.) we are starting with 90°F IAT (typical summer condition)
2.) 260 g/s MAF flow (typical of maxed out K04)
3.) All of the meth is vaporized
4.) 200 PSI meth pressure (reasonable for most people's pumps)
5.) Using the ideal gas law assuming P1, V1, P1, and P2 are all the same and simply solving for the ratio of n2/n1 which will be proportional to T1/T2 in absolute temp to acquire the density changes.




Essentially, the 1 GPH nozzle simply isn't injecting enough meth to do a heck of a lot of temp depression (~9°F).

It takes a 3 GPH (~26°F) or 5GPH (~42°F) to really start to have an impact on the order of summer/winter ambient temp differences.

I doubt anyone will really see much of an impact from simply running a 1 GPH nozzle, but a 3 or 5 GPH would start to get interesting...

Lex, my model shows a 3.7% density increase for each 1% by mass methanol evaporated, which is pretty close to the 3% number you referenced. Since the molar mass of methanol isn't much different than air the 1% volume increase per 1% mass fraction meth evaporated is a very reasonable assumption, but I went ahead and corrected for the ratio of molar masses (28.97/32.04 = .904 = meth only takes up 90.4% the volume of as the same mass of air).

[Dust]

What would 1 gph do with 100% water?

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Dust What would 1 gph do with 100% water?

~23°F temp decrease , ~3.5% Adjusted density increase.

[Dust]

So one vote for 2gph at 30% meth or less.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Dust So one vote for 2gph at 30% meth or less.

~37°F decrease, ~5.8% adjusted density increase...

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Math FTW. So I ran the numbers on the delta T from injecting straight meth into the turbo using a modified version of my meth fueling calculator sheet (see yellow rows for the calcs relevant to this discussion). Assumptions: 1.) we are starting with 90°F IAT (typical summer condition) 2.) 260 g/s MAF flow (typical of maxed out K04) 3.) All of the meth is vaporized 4.) 200 PSI meth pressure (reasonable for most people's pumps) 5.) Using the ideal gas law assuming P1, V1, P1, and P2 are all the same and simply solving for the ratio of n2/n1 which will be proportional to T1/T2 in absolute temp to acquire the density changes. Essentially, the 1 GPH nozzle simply isn't injecting enough meth to do a heck of a lot of temp depression (~9°F). It takes a 3 GPH (~26°F) or 5GPH (~42°F) to really start to have an impact on the order of summer/winter ambient temp differences. I doubt anyone will really see much of an impact from simply running a 1 GPH nozzle, but a 3 or 5 GPH would start to get interesting... This model currently doesn't account for the meth vapor volume, which would tend to skew the effective density increase down some. Lex, my model shows a 3.7% density increase for each 1% by mass methanol evaporated, which is pretty close to the 3% number you referenced. Since the molar mass of methanol isn't much different than air the 1% volume increase per 1% mass fraction meth evaporated is a very reasonable assumption, but I went ahead and corrected for the ratio of molar masses (28.97/32.04 = .904 = meth only takes up 90.4% the volume of as the same mass of air).

Is it possible to add a IAT table into the calculator?

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Haltech Is it possible to add a IAT table into the calculator?

Done

[Mizzle]

Why not dual - one pre-turbo, one pre-tb? Pre-turbo to increase turbo efficiency up top, the pre-tb for temperature?

[Lex]

cld12pk2go thanks for the calculator and confirming this!

Would the atomization be similar at much higher meth/water flow levels using similar technology nozzles?

Since these are not PWM controlled valves/nozzles I assume a higher flowing nozzle simply has a larger opening affecting atomization and droplet size.

So would starting to run a D05 nozzle pre turbo be a little much on the ol' impeller blades in terms of droplet size?

[Dust]

Lex, I know that all companies but alcohol injection systems that mention pre-turbo say to stay small. AIS tells users to go big, but he sells mostly to the big boys, where parts don't always need to last for 300K miles.

[dpolseno41]

Dual smaller nozzles perhaps?

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Lex cld12pk2go thanks for the calculator and confirming this! Would the atomization be similar at much higher meth/water flow levels using similar technology nozzles? Since these are not PWM controlled valves/nozzles I assume a higher flowing nozzle simply has a larger opening affecting atomization and droplet size. So would starting to run a D05 nozzle pre turbo be a little much on the ol' impeller blades in terms of droplet size?

I think you big turbo guys should start with a 2 gallon and work your way up.

Originally Posted by Mizzle Why not dual - one pre-turbo, one pre-tb? Pre-turbo to increase turbo efficiency up top, the pre-tb for temperature?

All pre turbo setups are dual miz...

[Lex]

In the end I look at it this way. If you MUST stay on a K04 or flow limited compressor this may be a good solution for you. Otherwise just upgrade the compressor - there are many choices out there and stick with post turbo WMI to cool the charge.

If you're doing this for competition where you are under restrictions and/or are trying to get the most out of a particular setup it can give you a leg up but I'd upgrade a lot of other things before and we already have turbos that outflow fueling as is.

Multiple nozzles are a good idea dpolseno41 to keep droplet size small.

[rfinkle2]

I yield to cld12pk2go and Lex as far as the mathematics involved, but here is a video of nozzle types and their output.

(HD) Texas_Ace Methanol Injection nozzle comparison review with slow-mo - YouTube

(HD) Texas_Ace Methanol Injection nozzle comparison review with slow-mo - YouTube

Also found these custom pre-turbo meth nozzle holders:
Pre-Compressor Jet Holder - Howerton Engineering, LLC

[cld12pk2go]

It is tempting to add my M3 pre-turbo; however, I am getting silly air flows now with the colder ambient temps...

Maybe if I miss the 400wtq to redline next summer...lol

[superdave2335]

not to revive an old thread but did anyone end up trying this or not on a ko4???