New Product Release!! MS3/6 and Focus ST Throttle Body Meth Injection Spacer
 

Details:
Need to reduce boost air temperatures? Want to prevent unwanted knock retard? Need to safely increase timing and increase HP? Then you need to spray meth!

http://www.jamesbaroneracing.com/sho...B-INJ-SPCR.JPG

Now no longer do you have to drill and tap your cold side piping or manifold. The JBR Methanol Injection Throttle Body Spacer is quickly and easily installed between the throttle body and intake manifold and everything is included. It has 4, 1/8" NPT ports and can be equipped with up to 4 injector nozzles to meet the specific needs of your build.

http://www.jamesbaroneracing.com/sho...NJ-SPCR_01.JPG

The JBR Methanol Injection Throttle Body Spacer is CNC machined from 6061 aluminum then a beautiful black anodized coating is applied.

http://www.jamesbaroneracing.com/sho...NJ-SPCR_03.JPG

Also included is one of our Thermal Insulating Throttle body gaskets! This will help to further reduce boost air temperatures and makes the JBR Methanol Injection Spacer the best value on the market.

http://www.jamesbaroneracing.com/sho...NJ-SPCR_05.JPG

Application:
2013 & up Ford Focus ST
2006-2013 MAZDASPEED 3/6 & CX7

Features:

• Designed, Engineered and Manufactured in the USA
• Black anodized finish for long-lasting corrosion-free protection
• Thermal Insulating gasket included (No need to purchase an additional gasket)

The kit includes:

• 1, Throttle Body Meth Injection Spacer
• 1, Thermal insulating throttle body gasket ($25.00 value)
• 4, Stainless 1/8" NPT hex plugs
• 4, 6mm-1.0 x 75mm socket cap head bolts
• 4, 6mm flat washers
• Installation instructions are available in our support section
• Shipping is free in the US & our Hassle Free Lifetime Warranty is included

http://www.jamesbaroneracing.com/sho...NJ-SPCR_03.JPG

What is the license number of the engineer that approved this design? @redneck4Christ;

What's the problem now?

I just want to know if you hired an engineer that approved this "engineered" design. The last time we discussed this you did not have a licensed engineer on staff. That is all.

Oh for fuck sake, give it a rest.

Last time we discussed this I made it clear to you that you don't need to be a licensed engineer to "engineer" anything. Memory slipping?

You gave me you opinion which is in conflict with the laws of the state of Illinois. Still haven't taken the time to figure it out have you?

I wish I could. I thought this site was against false advertising I am merely holding up that standard.

en·gi·neer
ˌenjəˈnir/
noun
1.
a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or public works.
synonyms: originator, deviser, designer, architect, inventor, developer, creator; mastermind
"the prime engineer of the approach"
verb
1.
design and build (a machine or structure).
"the men who engineered the tunnel"



FWIW, unless you are charging for engineering services (IE contract engineer), it is not required by any state that you are licensed. Unless you are requesting engineering services, I fail to see a connection here with licensing. If you want to question the fact that JBR did in fact "design and build a machine or structure", that's a whole new level of crazy.

I wouldn't expect a 19 year old nutswingger to get it.

Nutswinging aside, here's the part. It looks good. It performs even better. I could give a fuck less what some douche behind a keyboard thinks.

Why don't you explain it to the rest of us? You seem to know something no one else does? Common explain it.

this is how i imagine easter bunny:

http://i.imgur.com/JgAJu9S.jpg

<3

lol exactly... I seriously doubt any of the already available spacers are professionally 'engineered', it's a damn spacer.

Well I think that is the agenda - it's more ammo for people saying JBR blatantly copies parts. I realize most of this stuff doesn't get patented and it's an open market, but that is still going to rub some people the wrong way.

Regardless, my Silicone FMIC piping is fully original, fits greats, flows great, and was a great value. If someone else made a similar kit for a few bucks less, that would be competition and it drives every industry.

I would not say that's the plan. They did it to Corksport in the lightweight pulley thread.

It will be interesting to see every single vendor get the same treatment. So far, it's not happening.

We haven't copied shit. The same parts for the same car are all going to look the same. This spacer is an extrusion of the thermal gasket we've been making for 5 years.



Is this not a copy?

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/042...g?v=1404270524

I had someone say I ripped off their ECU relocate design (wasn't even me selling them). I was unaware they existed. The guy hadn't made any for 2 years AFAIK so I'd never seen one - and yeah you're right, there are only so many ways to skin a cat. :dunno:

Damn by the time i am done FOMOCO will all be replaced by JBR

I know of one. Looks really similar to this one. Curious.

So true, especially in very tight engine bays most parts, whether mass produced or custom, have certain dimensions to work within and certain design principle to work around.

I for one don't want parts looking different just for the sake of looking different, I want each manufacturer to make the most efficient parts possible.

It certainly doesn't take a certified engineer to make most of the performance parts we bolt on to our cars. With the right tools and metal/silicone stock and an understanding of the tools/machines/software, any Joe blow who is not retarded can craft almost anything. 3D printing is making it even easier for the common person to make decent parts for almost anything.

So to entertain the idea that this spacer is the same as the Damond one, wouldn't deductive reasoning dictate that since this spacer was designed off of JBR's TIG (which has been sold before Damond was even around), Damond's spacer is just a copy of JBR's design?

Holy shit that is a long sentence.

And to further that point- aren't we all just copying Mazda? Their designs look pretty similar too.

No.

The rules are in place for a reason.

Both of your spacers are similar but they are definitely different. It's not worth fighting over, just let the end users decide. Shit slinging does very little in terms of convincing me (end user) which way to go with as far as manufacturer's are concerned.

Competition drives all good markets to greatness in the end.

There will always be stuff that looks like a copy of another company's shit. But as I said earlier, for most parts there is only so much deviation that can take place. It's hard to corner the market on a pieces that can so easily be recreated by a friendly machine shop w/ a cple measurements/pics..

Hey this looks like a sweet spacer. Just another option on the market with a good vendor. I'm considering meth and could use this.

Let's get this under control. This thread feels like this...

Attachment 202314

i think vendors just need to stop tearing each other down. it's great entertainment, but you all are businesses and should conduct yourselves in a strictly business fashion when posting from your vendor accounts. this includes restraining yourselves from taking thinly veiled shots at one another when making posts under your own vendor pages, or when interacting both as and with the general public. i don't go around to my rival companies telling them how much they suck and how shitty their business tactics are. you all provide solid products at reasonable prices, i.e options for a very small and exclusive market. your business is not theirs and vice versa. shut the fuck up and continue working to make me go faster.

Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen any vendors fighting it out. There are some members that seem to have an axe to grind with certain vendors.

I'll choose to abstain from commenting on whether that is appropriate or not.

meh. i saw another vendor prepared to chime in. I'm not saying they were prepared to start bashing, but i've seen that type of behavior from a few of them before, so the sentiment is applicable. stay out of each other's business.

Raider is right Easter Bunny. If we are going to get onto one or two vendors, we ought to get onto all of them.
But going back to your original comments, I don't think you are questioning the integrity of the design or saying one company copied another, just trying to clarify the common, but incorrect use of a term that has a specific meaning.
For a company to advertise that it "Engineers" or sells "Engineered" products, it has to have a licensed Professional Engineer that was involved in the design. The PE can be on staff or contracted to review specific designs. This requirement is most obvious in Civil Engineering, but is valid in the other engineering fields as well. A local firm (competitor to the mechanical engineering company I work for) was desperately looking to hire a PE after the one they had quit or moved. They wanted to still be able to call themselves an engineering firm.

If JBR's original statement was "Designed and Manufactured in the USA" instead of "Designed, Engineered, and Manufactured in the USA" then we would not be having this discussion.
One word. That's all.


PS. Design looks good JBR.

PPS. @jbarone, My wife is a licensed PE (as I am) and recently retired from an automotive firm. Perhaps you could contract with her to review and approve your designs. Then you could say they were "Engineered". :)

Only one vendor posted a picture of a competing product and suggested it was a copy. While this isn't the proper forum for such a discussion, it's pretty fair for the vendor of previously stated competing product to want to respond to such allegations. To be "called out" and denied response isn't great, but as stated the rules are in place for a reason, and it's probably better that way.

Looks like a decent TB spacer.

If 1 msf vendor has s dispute with another vendor, this is not the thread. We have a vendor discussion section to discuss it first. You cannot post in another vendor's section.

I have emailed, reported the thread, and even texted @Haltech; for input on this. I think Halbot will be posting industry news before he actually steps in to decide what to do on his forum.

Engineered.

I still stick by you dont need PE to have something engineered. You need a PE to have something professionally engineered. To be engineered you need someone with an engineering degree.

This is just my opinion, but in the ME world outside of areospace, I think a PE is a waste of my time and money.

The engineering is sub-par IMHO.

The "Thermal Insulating Throttle Body Gaskets" are pointless, as there is no need to thermally isolate the TB from the IM, especially if running methanol/water injection.

I will say from having making my own that has the same positions as this one, the other supplier that has them on an angle gives you much more mounting options. The throttle body and intake manifold block off 3 of the 4 ports from use on mine.

It's a licensing board just like the board for lawyers and the medical board for doctors. It's just not as well enforced, but those of us that are actually engineers are well aware of it. It's like if supplements were in the market as being doctor approved when no such thing occured. "Engineer" and it's varients are protected terms, in so much that you can't imply you are providing engineering services, or engineered products without a licensed engineer review.

It's not commonly enforced, but that doesn't mean is not illegal. The difference between "engineered" and "professionally engineered" is taking money for the work.

(225 ILCS 325/40) (from Ch. 111, par. 5240)
(Section scheduled to be repealed on January 1, 2020)
Sec. 40. Unlawful practice. It is unlawful for any person, sole proprietorship, professional service corporation, corporation, limited liability company, or partnership, or other entity to practice professional engineering, advertise or display any sign or card or other device which might indicate to the public that the person or entity is entitled to practice as a professional engineer, or use the initials "P.E.," or use the title "engineer" or any of its derivations, unless such person holds an active license as a professional engineer in the State of Illinois, or such professional service corporation, corporation, limited liability company, partnership, sole proprietorship, or other entity is in compliance with Section 23 of this Act.

^As an engineer, this. Any company that claims "engineered" or uses the word in their name or marketing without a licensed PE on staff loses credibility and respect in my eyes.

Yeah, well the debate in the Corksport thread basically said even if you have an engineer, does not count.

The only easy way to kill this, is just for @jbarone; to stop using "engineered" in the products made, and just let the consumer decide what to buy.

There are a LOT of companies out there making very similar products to what JBR ,HTP, DM, CS, CPe and one and one, but not getting the negative attention that these vendors are. Hell, I see some getting praised for their stuff.

This is just a subject that really needs the forum owner needs to step up and make a decision on how we handle this.

Again, I think a PE is a waste of time. Hell in some states you dont even have to have an engineering degree to earn a PE. Yes, I think if a certification is required for a job then yes, you need a PE. But to say something is engineered? No, you just need an engineer.

Edit: this probably isnt the place for this discussion. Mods, feel free to remove my posts if needed.

And I am gonna sit here on my front porch rocking chair, and just spit this out.

Before MSF, there was 3 forums. And when the MS3 came out, 1 member there, Jazzy, made a Jazzy Plate, and posted specs for those to make em, as that user could not do it professionally. It was crude, very crude. The initial reviews went from positive, to heh, as shifting linkage boots were getting torn. Well, I know a couple companies made and revised short shift plates afterwards. Then everyone and their mother made em. Everyone claims to be original, but I remember the old Jazzy plate. Was it patented? Nope. It was never developed past a few very basic pieces.

I also remember when Mazda3Mod's (David from Kozmic Motorsports first company) FMIC came out, and fitted like balls but worked, it was not patented. When that company fizzled out, the plans were sold to Protege Garage, and revised 4 times before CX-Racing got a set and knocked it off. Then all of China got a set, and knocked it off again. So the kit went from 800 to 500 to 250 bucks. But nobody is upset about buying this knockoff. Everyone with a CX-Racing is buying something that is a copy, and nobody bats an eye. Corksport and JBR use "engineered" in describing how they made something, everyone loses their mind.

When I talk to companies that make stuff for other makes and models, like WRX and Evo about making something for us (stuff not even out), they tell me "not interested" before I can even talk to them. When I ask why, they speak of directly about MSF, and the pretty negative culture that defines MSF.

Our culture is our past. Our current membership is our community. We cannot change the past. our community can change how we are viewed, and ultimately change the view of our culture. If we expect as a forum, and a community, to survive, something has gotta change.

[QUOTE=maisonvi;2892093]... But to say something is engineered? No, you just need an engineer. ...[QUOTE]

yes, and to be an engineer requires said license.
For my first 13 years in industry, I had an engineering degree, I worked at an engineering firm, I worked With engineers (some non-degreed), but I could not call myself an engineer until I jumped thru the hoops to get my license. I had to call myself a "Technical Professional" or an "Engineer-In-Training".
And it Pissed me off.

And now I've had to call out two companies that I'm a fan of (and will still buy from). FML

FWIW, I don't think a spacer/injection plate such as this requires a full engineering analysis. Basic mechanical design is plenty sufficient. It is not a highly stressed item. A car guy who spends his weekends at the track or in the garage could design this part as well or probably better than a PE sitting behind a desk.

But, since @jbarone claims that this part was Engineered, I am curious what engineering analysis or calculations were done? stress, thermal conductivity, thermal expansion, etc?

Just curious.

[quote=redneck4Christ;2892118][QUOTE=maisonvi;2892093]... But to say something is engineered? No, you just need an engineer. ...Again, to be a licensed engineer or professional engineer, yes you need a PE. To be an engineer IMO you need an engineering degree.

Aaand a licensed PE can only claim to work as an "Engineer" in the state or states which they are licensed in. and in their field of expertise.

ie. I am only licensed in Texas, so I could not sign off on a JBR design in Illinois. I am a mechanical Engineer in the oilfield. I could not sign off on building plans or an HVAC design.

This is how the rest of the world interpretes it accept a few clowns here on MSF and I have a ME degree.

Our machine shop has several licensed engineers on staff. It's also a licensed provider of contract engineering services. Their primary business is for the US military. All of our designs are reviewed and approved by us both before going to final production. Will I provide the names and license #'s, fuck no. That is not information that will be shared by any company.

At least my company has licensed welders on staff and a mechanical engineer involved in the design and manufacturing. I know of at least one company on MSF,who receives a lot of praise around here that has neither.

So in summary....You can all suck it. Our parts are "Engineered" in the US.

When did this forum become so gay? If you don't like his shit, fuck off. He isn't making anyone buy anything.

This. To clarify the term being used is my only goal. it is Not my intention to bad mouth any of our vendors. I apologize if I came off that way.

If this is one of your "Goals" you have issues.

Here's a goal for ya....Stop this shit, work towards making this forum what it once was. Be grateful you still have vendors willing to support this dying platform. Call me silly but those might just be productive goals.

We take a dozen calls a day from guys saying "I can't stand MSF, can you help me?"

You can see it in the declining membership, you can see it in the declining donations, you can see the assholes in this thread are brown. This place has turned to shit. The few of you that once contributed to advancing the platform, now shit on it.

Rough to call people proud of their profession clowns

Lol apparently I'm an asshole too. You have quite the way with customer service

Anybody remember that time they were in the ER and they asked the doctor saving their life for their credentials? Yeah me either.

@jbarone

Apology sent. I like your company and products. I have your parts on my car. I have nothing ill to say about this part.

And I did not intend to single you out among the various vendors.

My intention was not to shit on you or bad mouth you and I apologize if I offended you.
-Jason

Considering how this thread turned into a shitstorm, I can see the response is blunt and not sugar coated. But when accusations fly over and over, you get kind of sick of it. I would have been more specific on who can suck it not to make it an everyone. I guess those who need to suck it, can.

Apology accepted but not needed. I know you're a good guy.

I think you understand where I'm coming from and the need for the behavior of a few needs to be changed. This forum needs to change.

I may paint with a broad brush but those whom I've pointed out know who they are.

This is a terrible analogy but I'll play along. Remember when you went to a doctor and they didn't have a license to practice medicine? Would that bother you?

As far as this thread goes there are enough engineers that have posted that think using the word "engineered" without meeting the criteria is an issue to make it sound like a legitimate concern even if it doesn't mean the parts are bad. Easter Bunny may be a troll but Ziggo, Silvapain, and redneck all seem like reasonable people.

Finally, if it's true that the part designs are approved by the machine shop that does consulting and has a licensed engineer I'm not sure why that wasn't the reply to the original question instead of being passive aggressive. Just a minimum amount of customer service seems like it would have avoided all of this.

(Trying to steer back on topic.)
Good lookin plate ya got there, jbarone! Any other colors you are thinking about offering? Red is one of your standards.
Maybe brown for us asshats?

That is frustrating, to say the least. Just for comparison, rallysportdirect has 18 sway-bar options available for a 2010 WRX. They have 4 available for an MS3 in the same model year. It would be great to see reputable manufacturers, like Perrin for example, approach the Mazda platform.

Can everyone put their engineering dicks away, please? You're not "just curious". You very well know it is unlikely they have done such analysis.

These few clowns and the law......

So then if answer is yes, a PE has approved the designs and there is no issue with using the term engineer and it's varients. That's all that needed to be said really.

I was only clarifying that yes the term engineer IS a protected term by law, no matter it's common perception, or how people feel about it.

I take issue with it because of some other companies that use the same term (which I brought up when I was made aware) produced camber arms that proceeded to have failures because of a pretty basic mechanical design flaw, insufficient thread engagement, which any buisness that was actually following the licsencing requirements should have caught. Shit like this degrades the term engineer to mean "it mostly fits, who knows what will happen next" instead of "we actually thought about the design requirements and how to meet them before selling you a product"

Other example being use of adhesive in an intake without proper design review..

I use your products and have been very happy with them it's not meant to be a knock on the quality

Good thought. I kinda wish the same. If there was a way to clean up all the bullshit, have the question, and quick answer without extras, I would myself clean this thread up. But I can see it looking weird for a guy in 2 years to come into the thread and see a "you can all suck it" to the 1 question, and all the deleted posts not seen.

Pretty easy way to clean up the BS, stop making parts for the platform causing the BS.

Sad that most of MSF will not know how well you know of the FIRST of TWO camber arm product fails.

There are companies that use the term "engineer" in their name and nobody has a problem, apparently (sips tea), but that is none of my business.

I do not want to delete much though, many get sore over it.

But if @jbarone; cleaned up the response to not be so harsh, and wanted me or any mod to, how many would be opposed to having 2 pages of negativity get cleaned up to a quick answer? All but a few, I bet.

With 90 degree nozzle holders, 3 of the 4 ports can be utilized with this spacer and the stock manifold on the MS3. All 4 ports can be used on the Focus ST with the stick manifold as well as all aftermarket manifolds.

@Raider; To be honest I'd rather see all of this 2 years from now then only see the clean up, like you said.

I'd much rather a vendor come and swing away with us and defend himself then to just groan the complaint and disappear or ignore it.

Also I would argue that there is probably a discrepancy between actually titling and declaring oneself an engineer and stating that a product has been "engineered". Without the credentials it likely is, and should be, illegal to declare oneself an engineer. But to use the term engineered for its immediate comprehension and intent for marketing purposes is probably a very gray area at best.

In the end I mean if MDM doesn't GAF, why should we? let them hash it out if there comeuppances to be dealt.

If a company claims a parts engineered, then provide said proof when asked. I'm not sure why it's difficult to comprehend?

Just as a refresher this was the only question i posed. I have no complaints about this product nor do i feel that the design requires an engineer to approve it. If the product was engineered, fine the text is fine the way it is. If it was not engineered then the promotional materials should not state that it was.

When everyone with a welder and a chop saw can claim to have "engineered" something this is how we are perceived as a profession.

I never said that you did, it appears that some people took my post as an excuse to go full bore with you on some separate beef. I don't give a shit if you did copy someone else's product its not my fucking problem. For what it is worth, your shift plate was the first thing i installed on my car in 2009 and its still there working the same as the first day.

I have no ax to grind with any particular vendor, my beef is with vendors and manufactures misrepresenting themselves as members of my profession.

this exactly, agree with it or not there are laws in every state in this county which govern who and in what context you are able to claim to be an engineer or to have engineered something.

Its unprofessional, and it creates confusion in the marketplace. an uniformed person comparing parts would assume that the truthfully advertised design was somehow inferior to the dishonestly advertised "engineered" part.

Any engineer that truly stands behind a design they have approved would have no problem providing a license number. My number appears on every plan, computation and letter that i sign. doing otherwise would indicate that i am not willing to risk my license on the design.

funny how in one thread you have gone from stating that you don't need an engineer to engineer something but magically you employing a licensed welder makes your welding superior. Are you saying that unless you are licensed you cant competently perform the work?

You could have simply stated that your machine shop has licensed engineers on staff, that would have ended this all right there. instead you chose to be a dick since one time i agreed with @Tokay444; in one of your threads. He may have a beef with you but i am not him. (thank god, if i had to live in Canada i would kill myself)

This is the same for me, i had no intention of turning this into a flame war. I was trying to be as polite as possible in my original question. to which you chose to be a dick in response even though you had the answer that would have resolved all of this.

thankfully i have never had a true traumatic injury that would have been a dire emergency, but every time i go to the doctors, dentist, hospital etc i do look for certifications on the wall or at the hospital read name tags to determine qualifications and decide if i am confident in their ability to perform the task they are present for.

Thank you for being honest about what you are, i'm glad that someone in this thread is.

This is all that i ever wanted. Thank you for posting.

Thank you for being honest about what you are, i'm glad that someone in this thread is.


This all being said, i think that i should make clear that i have no vendetta against any manufacturer. I have JBR, Corksport, CP-e, and Damond Motorsports parts on my car. and i purchase the CP-e mount through Street Unit. I have been pleased with all of my dealing and the parts i received. My only goal is clarify the meaning of the word engineered and to ensure that it is being used correctly.
@redneck4Christ; and i have been in a separate discussion where i will be attempting to outline all of this in one place where it does not unfairly target individual parts manufacturers.

disclosing a license number would disclose who the engineers are and who we use to do our engineering and manufacturing...not going to happen.