Should the Next MazdaSpeed3 be Naturally Aspirated?
 

No.

Not with cars like the ST, WRX, and the GTI around. Everyone is moving turbo, there's no point in going back to NA unless we are talking about an s2k type of motor

Yeah, I couldn't imagine a 200hp Mazdaspeed. I would like to see a turbo sedan myself.

It would be a very big mistake. There is just no way to extract the torque and power easily from an NA engine. People in this segment expect the torque of a turbo and expect to modify the car for more.

It would also kill the majority of the companies making performance products for the car. In my opinion in this day and age, trying to get more power from an NA 4 cylinder is a waste of time and money and often counterproductive. The handling and suspension aftermarket is not a big one for this car either and that shows you what people care about most.

I would NOT be surprised if the MS3 comes in with a diesel 2.2. This is probably how the diesel will be introduced in the 3 range at a premium price.

It would kill their brand off.

The new "speed" 3 would be no faster than my car than. :lol:

Realistically less HP is not a bad thing in a well sorted lightweight chassis. However one of the appealing things about the speed3 was its nut dragging FWD HP and Torque.

I would be ok with HP numbers between the new mk7 GTI and the Focus ST... ball park 230-ish with 250-60 torque.

I really dont want to see another 8th or 9th Gen Civic. Besides rumor has it that Honda may be going forced induction.

That would be such a shame, anything with less power I wouldn't find appealing, especially if there isn't much power that can be gained by tuning like Lex said.

MS3's don't have AWD, no DSG, but they are a lot of fun to drive. But if the power also isn't there, I would find it hard to find reasons to buy it IMO.

If its not forced induction or a v8 its typically off my list of vehicles I'm interested it unless its something along the lines of a Lotus or other light weight sports car.

That is a very good point! Gold Star Sir! With the rumors of a Focus RS lurking maybe a Speed3 diesel is a huge possibility. Not to mention the new 3 seems to share dimensions with the CX-5 which has an AWD feature in the option box.

A naturally aspirated Mazdaspeed3 maybe the entry perfomance and the Speed Diesel AWD could be the bad boy of the bunch.

MAZDASPEED D....Has a nice ring to it.

Sorry, a diesel speed 3 will not be so badass... we already make torque higher than a modded diesel would make in this car already. Build me a port injected speed 3 making 350hp or license ecoboost engines from ford. That 2.3 coming out is going to make 330hp without even breaking a sweat.

Part of what made the original MS3 Gen1 so kickass and liked by reviewers was the amount of power it had. The Gen2 had more creature comforts and all that along with the power...kinda like they refined it.

I think if you take away the power, youre losing part of the essence of what makes the the Mazdaspeed what it is.

However my thoughts are 99% it will have a turbo, every North American Mazdaspeed car had a turbo...so I figure chances are...its going to have a turbo.

I'm surprised no one has jumped all over them for claiming that the current amount of power is... unusable. That makes no sense to me.

Seriously the comments in that article are just retarded. And un-useable 280 ft/trq and 263hp my ass. Sure we would love awd but doesn't mean that's still some decent numbers for a hot hatch...

I hate people sometimes.. :damnit:

port injection is backwards. license ecoboost? Ecoboost use a Mazda designed block and Mazda did most of the r&d for di for ford afaik.

Having come from the 8th gen Civic Si, I can say that N/A is equally as fun and is way more responsive stock for stock Also, my bolt-on si barely walked a genpu (on a highway run) that had an intake and a tune. Clearly N/A can hang.

I think what makes Mazda so great is the overall package: power, handling, fit and finish, and value. This is why I ended up with a genpu. If Mazda can maintain those attributes, I don't care what they throw in the car, as long as it's similarly as fast as the current gen...no point in taking steps backward in terms of the performance -- that's for Honda to do.

Maybe so, but a diesel platform might be the only way to achieve better fuel economy. If you can make crazy power but still be get 40 hwy it may sell like hot cakes.

This of course is complete speculation. Your mention of licensing the ecoboost from Ford is interesting though. I wonder how independent Mazda truly is from its past parent company. They might still share some tech or even design specs for a certain number of years. Very rarely do large companies leave each other cold turkey.

I would not want an eco boost I think they are great motors but they seem to put components in them to only handle stock power levels. Sure Mazda might change those components, but why. Mazda makes great motors so why license something they can so just as well. I don't see that many decisive advantages of an eco boost over the mzr disi.

I do think a diesel would be sweet. 40 mpg highway and just as much power as the disi sign me up. That and diesels can make power relatively easy

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Ford wouldn't let them throw an eco-boost in because then who the hell would ever buy a focus st?

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11307126...ember---report

This has to be a joke...


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The MS3 isn't a BRZ... no one is going to buy it for its finesse. Take away the brute force and you take away what makes the car unique.

This would result in a turd on par with the neutered DSM's when they killed off the Talon/Laser and went with a V6 Eclipse and dropped the AWD option. :yuck:

I would still be disappointed in a 3.5-3.8L V6 making 320HP 300TQ and very little further potential.

Um no, ecoboost was co-developed by FEV engineering, not Mazda... Ford had Mazda test an early version of ecoboost known as the DISI MZR.

They would just sit on the lots... besides, Mazda already confirmed a speed wouldn't drop until 2016 yr anyhow.

Unless that diesel came from a truck and has three sequential turbos like the cumstang so my car daintly skips down the road from torque I dont want a diesel. Keep it DISI the 2.5 would be a cool idea or just fix the weak points on the 2.3 and make more power.

An N/A speed sedan as a hold over to compete with the SI would be okay if they called it something else and still gave us a real turbocharged speed :squintfinger:

Am I the only one that would rather see a DISI version of the 2.0 than the 2.5? That's a long ass stroke...

I dunno, both Ford and Mazda have never been known to make shit for power out of a 2.0 like Mitsu does.

Look at the Focus ST as proof.

2.0 plus AWD = World rally qual could be kinda awesome.

We haven't heard anything about this car so it's likely some sort of regurgitated rumor.

" The current MazdaSpeed3 is powered by a turbocharged 2.3-liter I-4 that makes 263 hp and 280 lb-ft of torque, which — associate road test editor Carlos Lago demonstrated in a recent Head 2 Head — is pretty much unusable."

what makes car reviewers such pussies?

I don't know if Mazda designed our block... it has FoMoCo stamped on it. Same with most of the other vehicle's components.

Before I bought the 'Speed, I narrowed it down to 2 cars.

Speed 3: Turbo.
FRS: Not turbo.

It wasn't that hard to decide.

He's right you know, look at how unusable this is. (With mods and E85 fuel!)

Another reason I'm hanging onto my genwon forever, and I mean forever..

Mazda is awesome when it comes to innovating new technologies. However they need to look back at their past cars and consider what enthusiast want, because I feel like they're starting to slip in that category.

I'd like to see a rwd boosted rotary again come out of this company again.

It needs to be supercharger/turbo something. Otherwise it just doesn't feel like mazdaspeed. Mazdaspeed has had a history of forced induction and to just drop it makes no sense. Even the new miata they are working on is a skyactive 1.3l turbo (150BHP I hear).

There is also the engineers working on the bigger rotary engine 2-seater. Maybe to compete with the BR-Z and FR-S? Now THAT I could see being a NA car.

From my understanding mazda was the one designing all small engine that ford used anywhere around the world (ie.: the 1.3L in the ford Ka ) and that ford was the one making the bigger US only engines. Even the new fusion has the mazda 2.5 (L5-VE) in it.

however I belive all the blocks/metal parts are casted by ford, hence the fomoco logo.

Yea, this is pretty spot on. But, out of fairness to Mazda, they are really the only ones still keeping true to their roots. The big boys look at trends and build vehicles for that trend. Trends only last a few yrs. Its like, they are constantly chasing the newest trend.

Mazda and BMW stick close to their roots. How long has the 3 series been chased down?

They could just make a 2.0 disi, with every error fixed from the 2.3

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The only problem is the last boosted mazda 2.0 was the Protege

Kinda bitter sweet, if its true, it would be kinda nice to have the last of a good thing, if not, well I guess I will need to trade out!

Thats a problem because?

Since the separation, no more MZR for mazda. Everything belongs to ford and now called EcoBoost...

Did I read a fuel economy post?

Seriously, NCE on fuel economy.

Shit, and I just read in that article they compared it to an Si? dafuuuuuuq...

When I had my regular 3 with a CAI I would keep up with si's.. a very lightly modded 3 is in si category, also considering there's more shit drivers rocking those cars. It's why I laugh my ass off when Honda owners compare an ms3 to an si..there is zero comparison except fwd 4cyl

We don't care so much about fuel economy, but the manufacturer has to thanks to CAFE standards, which is why I doubt we will see another rotary.

Zigatapatalka

Im not sure how much Ford history you haz under your belt, but Ford was able to get the lightning to meet strict CAFE standards by lowering the compression and making it a "low emissions vehicle". That overrides the CAFE standards from what i was told.

Tip of the hat Sir! Your Ford knowledge is impressive!

Well how else do you get a truck that gets 10 mpg to go into production? lol

You say that it gives jobs to the american middle class to build it. Eh, you call the right people and you may even get a subsidie to design it !

By selling very few of them and a lot of Fusion hybrids. A new MS3 will sell in small numbers, while hopefully Mazda will sell a lot of standard and diesel ones, so the average will (again hopefully) balance out in Mazda's favor.

i dont know crap about crap, but the days of low power light cars are gone, save for roadsters. long gone are the days of 140 hp 13x tq cars that weigh 25xx or less pounds. i just hope they dont do it, im sure it would mean less warranty issues for them and a big push for sky active, kinda like nissan putting the vq in all cars but no. it would be a shame, but at the same time the miata is loved by so many that if the balance is good it could be a hit.:tapedshut:

http://www.examiner.com/article/is-f...mazda-disguise

I read the first paragraph, but they don't cite their sources :tapedshut: Could be wrong I guess :silly:

agreed, my biggest love for mazda right now simply comes from them not giving up on the gasoline engine

everyone else is pushing into hybrids (and yes they are starting to go into it now a bit with the new loop stuff), and while that is good and all, there is still so much we can do with simple gasoline engine

mazda proved that with skyactive and achieved mpg ratings that rivals some hybrids

Should the next whore you date have AIDS? Of course the fuck not.

500+ members of MSF voted on that poll for turbo.

If Mazda can make a N/A car that is as light as and out handles the legendary Integra Type R, then I have zero problems with not including a turbo. If that isn't the case, what's the point of losing power?

A diesel speed 3 would be sweet. Look at the BMW 335d. That thing was badass.

LONG LIVE THE TURBO SPEED 3

What about a 2.5L inline 5 cylinder? Stroke would ether be the same or shorter then our current 2.3. So it will rev higher. Like the old Volvo 850s.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think their revving ability might be due to the fact that volvo used 2.0l or 2.3l straight fives in their old 850 turbo

Never mind they used 2.4l
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You sir are correct. It's a 2.3L but if you put larger pistons and a slightly longer rod then you can still rev to 7-7500 no problem. Maybe even if it was a 2.4L. Would be a monster.

Going back to N/A or even moving to diesel as the primary engine type for the future Mazdaspeed/MPS would be indeed a mistake. When people say or hear "MPS/Mazdaspeed" they think of a decent gasoline turbo engine that would allow then to shift their balls in the trunk in any gear anywhere above 3000rpm. A N/A engine will have to rev higher which will kill any low end performance and even though it may work very well on a track (assuming that it will be a high revving 2.5 making close to 250-260bhp), on street will lack that low end decent performance it has now.

They can just keep the 2.3 DISI (in the current form or a slightly different one, 2.0-2.2l) or turbo a 2.0 Skyactiv-G engine.
I would not mind to have the same power but some weight reduction would be welcome, and I'm not talking about reducing the weight with "a phenomenal 30 pounds", but at least 150 if not 200 pounds.
They could simply keep the current engine, fix every error in it as @Haltech said, and eventually make it rev higher and shift the torque curve with like 300-500rpm up in the rev range to take that monster torque away from where it results in wheel spin, we don't really need 280lb*ft as low as 2800-3000rpm, we only need like 200 there and we can use more later. This approach may also result in more power up top and match or come close to the upcoming Ford models and even the existing 45A AMG models (imagine a 300bhp 2.0DISI T engine in a lightweight FWD Mazdaspeed with less wheel spin than the current two generation!).
But no N/A or tractor engines as primary engines in this model, please!

I'm down around the 2950 mark and I still want an additional 300 lbs dropped. I really want Mazda 2 weight from a Mazdaspeed 3.

You're never going to get that in a car that is supposed to be a family car and legal for road use, at least not until carbon fiber is cheap. You have to be realistic about these things...our cars were not created as race cars, they were created to be sold to the public, and that limits what a company can make.

Mazdaspeed doesn't necessarily require a turbo either...the MS cars have all handled better and been faster than the regular cars. However Mazda gets there is a bit irrelevant, just as long as whatever MS they create is a "sensible rocket" it will be good. Personally, I think a turbo diesel AWD MS6 would be a killer car; make it stealthy like the MS6 but perform like a souped up European sedan, but keep it cheap and with good gas mileage, and they would sell well (presuming Mazda actually advertised them this time...).

It seems unlikely that they turbo the skyactive g, the compression ratio is already very high, but maybe yeah they could update their 2.3 disi and the stock tune since it can be pretty good on gas , I get way more than the advertised mpg depending on how I drive with a tune

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Calm down fellas.

Mazda's been doing this awhile.

They're not gonna completely torpedo their flagship hot rod model.

All these rumors of a Mazdaspeed Si are just to stir the pot.

The reasoning behind that is emissions. As you run the cylinders hotter you create a larger volume of NOx which is one of the reasons behind EGR. There are also a lot of other levels that can be increased by tuning and wouldn't fly as a street legal vehicle. Add to that the added fueling and low timing for added safety and you have the stock tune. OE's cant just tune and go like we do.

How has nobody called out this brownie faggot yet?

If you believe that, you should go back to your Honduh dick sucking buddies and GTFO!

Also, you can't "barely walk" someone. Walking someone means you beat them easily.

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1. Fix the 2.3 disi problems and offer a it up the same way as the current MS3 bu with a more useable power band and maybe 270 or 280 hp.

2. Offer a hopped up skyactive mazda3 or a diesel mazda 3 with a nice sporty suspension and looks, something maybe in the 200hp range just to annoy the honduh fags but still come in cheaper than the speed3

3. Offer an AWD turbo MS6 making somewhere in the mid to low 300 hp range


I would love to own a new mazdaspeed 6 if they ever do it.

N/A will always better at equal power levels. That said, getting a NA 4 cylinder to the 270-300 HP range will not be easy or likely possible directly from an economy car manufacturer. This is why I brought up them being able to recreate what Honda did with the Type R. That vehicle STILL dominates in STX with a basic bolt on/coil set up. Taking the BMWs and RX8s head on and typically coming out on top or very close to the top.

Make it double front wishbone, drop the weight to the 2600-2700 range (should be much easier to do without the added weight from the turbo and associated hardware), and drop the power to the 200 - 230 range. I'd be very happy with that in a hatchback racer.

Maybe a high power/high mpg NA 6 cylinder engine that runs on 87 octane would be nice. AWD would be a huge help too. With as big as the speed platform is right now though, I do not think going away from forced induction would be a good move on Mazda's part.

In a recent review of the 2013 Mazdaspeed3 (I think it was Automobile Magazine), a contact at Mazda USA asked the writer to include this line in the review: "You'll miss the torque steer when it's gone". IMO this points to one of three things: a new Ford Revoknuckle-style setup in a turbocharged 2.0L MS3 (unlikely), an AWD MS3 based on the CX-5 setup (possible, but unlikely due to a price point that would end up in STI territory) or an N/A Mazdaspeed3 based on the 2.0 Skyactiv motor. I'm actually a little worried that the third possibility is the most likely. The 2.3 DISI may be a beast, but it is done as a world engine for Mazda. The MPG is too low and the C02 per mile emissions are too high. As a result, the MPS is not a great value in European countries that have a C02 surcharge. It is what it is.

That said, they will effectively kill Mazdaspeed's legitimacy in the eyes of enthusiasts if they take the third option, because the high-revving N/A 4 cylinder niche is already filled by Honda. Mazdaspeed = forced induction rocketship versions of regular Mazda vehicles at an unbeatable price point. Period. They need to figure out how much their brand is worth to them vs the engineering expenses of an engine worthy of the reputation they've built.

Or, he simply meant people will miss the character when every car is refined to the point of being completely soulless. People read too far into things.

I'm sorry guys, but I think it's time to forget about the 2.3 DISI Turbo. That's the ford duratec engine and it will be used only by ford. :(
A higher revving 2.0 or 2.5 is most likely but can't be branded Mazdaspeed/MPS anymore because it's neither a turbo 4cyl or a rotary.

Let's wait. I just hope they will turbo the 2.0 skyactive-g and release it with a lower compression ration.
We're basically facing the end of the Mazdaspeed as we know it and I just hope the upcoming model will be up to the current standards.

More reason to keep rebuilding when the vented block comes around.

Or it could mean that maybe Mazda is investing a little more money on better mounts?

to be honest i am content with the engine type. whether its gas or diesel it works. i do agree with the port injection comment though. these cars would be alot less of a hassle with port injection.

I hear you on everything. And my post after reading it, was a little strongly put.

Let's start with the good news: I won't be brownie soon -- waiting on my next paycheck (just put a good amount down on this car).

About my post, when was I saying anything good about Honda? I just said that N/A motors tend to be more responsive in stock form as compared to turbo motors in stock form. Maybe that's my unknowing opinion -- I've only had 9 cars to judge this from (two turbo, the rest n/a).

Finally, I'm saying nothing but positive things about Mazda! I love this car -- it's easily the best one I've driven. Why would I come on here to talk trash about a car I just paid to own (this is the first car that I've elected to finance because I fell in such love with it). I'M ON YOUR SIDE. Sorry if my post came off as otherwise.

And, about walking somebody -- well you're right. But, how would you explain a race when you're barely pulling on somebody.

you would explain it by saying you barely pulled.

Glad you are coming around, but the main point of my post was that there is no way that a bolted civic beats a ms3 with an intake and tune.

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The whole point is the turbo!!! If the new Mazdaspeed is just going to be mostly a tuned Mazda 3 then why even waste the money upgrading? Just get a 3 and mod it. Without the turbo, there seems very little performance mods are even possible. What are we going to spend our money on?

I really don't think a na motor is going to be used. To use a non turbo motor would indicate a huge jump backwards in performance. In the hot hatch arms race you have to be over 200 to gain any ground.

Exactly, to win the hot hatch war mazda needs more than a mere 200 hp

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it's not a speed if it isn't turbo'd

I would love to see Mazda stay true to their original disi design, however playing devils advocate I cant help but consider Mazda no longer has Ford's support. Additionally, their sales have sucked esspecially with second gen 3's and 6's as well as the two. Speed sales are lethargic too.

Going with what haltec said, i wouldnt expect another speed for 3 or so years. They need to build up their consumer market to get the resources for the "prosumer" market. This new design hopefully sparks sales for Mazda.

It sucks but it makes sense. Luckily, Mazda has experience in turbo disi, supercharges, rotary and light weight performance so they wont leave us hanging.

yea, you're right! I definitely had to have ran a stock ms3. If anything, this makes me super excited to get an intake an a tune. F!ck you Honda1!!!...

Honestly I'd like to see Mazda not have another Speed 3. It's nice and all, but they need a change. I'd personally love to see a turbodiesel RWD Speed 6. Now that would be a blast to drive on and off the track!

There will be no more speed3 mazda said it themselves. The next mazdaspeed will be a turbo deisel speed6

Fixed AWD please

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Naa RWD! Way more fun to drive and actually takes an "educated" foot to race the car on a track. Just take a look at the Speedsource GX Mazda 6's. They actually use 51% stock components of Mazda's skyactiv diesel engine. Pretty freaking sweet!

Meh I like awd launches ;)

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I honestly think that if Mazda would have actually advertised the speed more than they did (not at all) it would have sold much better.

Its pretty much a cult car. Ford Advertised the hell out of the ST, an they are essentially eating up potential MS3 buyers before they even get seat time in an MS3.

you guys forget that mazdaspeed was not meant to be a production car. am i the only one who remembers back to the days of the msp and msm when it was only supposed to be a 2 year run model? the mazdaspeed3 came along and completely killed the original point of mazdaspeed street cars. 6 model years and unlimited production. im glad the speed3 is done, for now at least. maybe someday it can make a return but im not too mad about it.

The only reason I want the current DISI to keep going as a production model is selfish. The more cars on the road with that motor=more aftermarket support.

Look at how many gens EVOs had to go through to get major aftermarket players. Same with Subaru etc. If they kill the DISI now, big name aftermarket support will never come. If they keep pumping it out, eventually there is enough of on them on the road to warrant big budget R&D and aftermarket support.

I'm sorry where exactly did you read this? I believe both vehicles have a very good chance of returning. On the contrary there has been more evidence to support its return than its demise.

http://m.motortrend.com/wot/should-t...ll-385621.html

Going NA would be like going back to port injection. This isn't a civic si...

I read a bulletin somewhere. also I work as an engineer in the automotive industry and have many friends who work at mazda who assured me that it will not return. sorry to burst everyones bubble. they might have a higher hp na version but it will not be badged a mazdaspeed

Interesting. What exactly do your friends do for Mazda?

I work in plastics and gaskets mostly, but some other engine components and work with them to help design cam covers, oil pans, head and specialty gaskets etc. for example (but before i was here) my company actually designed the valve cover for the genone ms3 and we designed and manufactured the head gaskets, valve cover gaskets, and oil pan gaskets.

but i also have mazda friends who work at dealerships, my dad was a service manager for a local mazda dealership, and i have friends in mazdaspeed motorsports development who are giving me the same information

Not saying that there isn't an air of truth from your friends, but there is far more evidence showing there will be another sporty 3/speed3, well at least I deeply hope so. It's not uncommon for companies such as Mazda to keep tight lipped until things are a bit more production ready.