Blew up again...Doing it right this time!

[phate]

idk, it is pretty close to that main bearing. I would definitely have the main checked for roundness and straightness (in relation to others) if you were welding down there. That's something I would talk to a machinist about, lol.

A plug is super easy, as well as the BSD kits. I don't like the permanence of welding it closed.

[Realgib3]

Just left SPEED6 KILLAH and all I have to say is TQ 90.

[jracer]

Huh ?

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Alright so the the motor is ready to come out, just gotta take the pass and trans mount out. Didn't have access to the cherry picker because it was being used elsewhere, so I'll be pulling it and loading it into the truck tomorrow or Friday. After taking it apart...again though... I'm about 120% sure it's an issue with this stupid fucking head I'm using. Should just had the one that came off the old motor done, but whatever, hindsight's 20/20 and all that. Gotta believe it's the valve guides and the valve seals weren't ever the real problem. Check out the pic below and chime in, remembering this is the brand new valves after ~150 miles with brand new valve stem seals... Also note the small metal specs on the valve. I would have to imagine that is either material from the valve stem, or (more likely) from the guides. Why on earth it would only be bad on the right intake valve in every cylinder is a complete mystery to me though...

Did you oil the stems of the valves before stabbing them in the guides?
How did the stems of the valves the 1st time around look like? Any marks on them around the area where they glide on the guides?

Something you can do the next time is rub just a tad of molly on the stems around the area where they touch the guides. That will prevent abrasion when oil isn't there yet.

[Dano]

looks like somebody turned orange!

congrats man!

now get that drop in build going already.

[Tomas]

Teh Ghey Thunder is coming.
Brace yourself/

[Dano]

Bent over and fully braced over here. Let her rip!


Tappin

[Tabasco69]

Had it done with no issue, that port is not up against any of the main journals it is closer to the block skirt- all you are doing is filling it, take in total 10 seconds or you could do the tap if the block is going to be cleaned to get ride of any burrs and metal debri , did not like the idea of my oil pressure being dependent on a 5 cent o -ring failing

[djuosnteisn]

I brought up the idea of welding it with my machinist. He quickly poopoo'd the idea. Said if anything, simply tap it and thread a bolt in.

I just used a normal BSD plug.

[06Speed6]

+1 even if the oring on the plug fails itll still hold enough pressure to be ok, we run alot of extra pressure.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

I was nice to meet Realgib3 in person and talk to him for a couple hour.
Started to inspect his motor and remove the spark plug and found one side of the spark plug was white. Then look into the clyinder bore and found the piston dome clean showing some signs of coolant leaking into the clyinder..
Ask Realgib3 what was the TORQUE spec he used for tighting the TORQUE clyinder head he told me 90 ft lbs. Now remember he used PT-P head studs kit which are ARP2000 and was told my JOhn to TORQUE down to 90 ft lbs. Not only he TORQUE down to 90 ft lbs. He reused them when he put his clyinder head back on the second time. So I can image how strectched the studs are. I know that PT-p use that same arp head studs that we use in the kit just with a bigger Nut. Now last time I check APR recommended torque sequence tighten the nuts in three equal steps to 60 ft lbs.


http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/218-4702.pdf

[06Speed6]

Most people over torque arp studs, but 90'lb is alot over torqued.

[moomooz12]

Originally Posted by Russiantuner i feel the pain, my engine went zoom zoom boom as well last night.

Cuz you're fucking stupid.

[06Speed6]

^ Damn thats a little harsh considering you dont even know him

[moomooz12]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 ^ Damn thats a little harsh considering you dont even know him

He posts nonsense shit in threads. Fucking annoying.

[Monotonous ONE]

hes constantly fagging up threads with uselessness






















which is something i am definitely against

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Russiantuner Well one, I wasn't driving it like a mad man. I was cruisin speed limit on the freeway. All maintanance always taken care of. Only full senthetic. And premium gasoline. Had the car for 2 months. Must have been the previous owner. Keep in min that I had a Mazda6 for my first car that I built. A 350z and a tl type s tuned. Always took care of them. And I'm also only 20yrs old. Lol

Start your own thread. And believe me, you're not impressing anyone with you car history before 20 years old. Especially the TL. That's laughable.

[Monotonous ONE]

Originally Posted by Russiantuner Well shit, I'm going back to 6crew. Looks like the speed forums are full of douchebags. Haha I don't care about my car history. Main thing is I payed cash for all cars, with no parents help. Me personaly I feel proud about it. But whatever, talk shit on your own fellow speed owner.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Russiantuner Well shit, I'm going back to 6crew. Looks like the speed forums are full of douchebags. Haha I don't care about my car history. Main thing is I payed cash for all cars, with no parents help. Me personaly I feel proud about it. But whatever, talk shit on your own fellow speed owner.

Agian, no one cares.
Are you done yet faggot?

[phate]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH I was nice to meet Realgib3 in person and talk to him for a couple hour. Started to inspect his motor and remove the spark plug and found one side of the spark plug was white. Then look into the clyinder bore and found the piston dome clean showing some signs of coolant leaking into the clyinder.. Ask Realgib3 what was the TORQUE spec he used for tighting the TORQUE clyinder head he told me 90 ft lbs. Now remember he used PT-P head studs kit which are ARP2000 and was told my JOhn to TORQUE down to 90 ft lbs. Not only he TORQUE down to 90 ft lbs. He reused them when he put his clyinder head back on the second time. So I can image how strectched the studs are. I know that PT-p use that same arp head studs that we use in the kit just with a bigger Nut. Now last time I check APR recommended torque sequence tighten the nuts in three equal steps to 60 ft lbs. http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/218-4702.pdf

Can you check how stretched the bolts are, just for funsies?

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by Russiantuner Well shit, I'm going back to 6crew. Looks like the speed forums are full of douchebags. Haha I don't care about my car history. Main thing is I payed cash for all cars, with no parents help. Me personaly I feel proud about it. But whatever, talk shit on your own fellow speed owner.

Well that explains alot, why dont you go ahead and do that.

Originally Posted by phate Can you check how stretched the bolts are, just for funsies?

I have a set of new arp head bolts if you guys want an original length, or we can email arp and get the tolerance spec.

[phate]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I have a set of new arp head bolts if you guys want an original length, or we can email arp and get the tolerance spec.

Yes and yes, lol. Would love to know the tolerance on these things and how much they're actually stretched after two 90lb-ft torquing sessions.

Edit: Realgib3 - What was your method for torquing them? Did you use oil or fastener lubricant (like ARP ultra torque)?

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by phate Can you check how stretched the bolts are, just for funsies?

Yep, Pablo will be measuring them to see how bad they are stretched, along with making sure that was the only issue, causing all these problems. From what we looked at when I was in NJ though, I think we're pretty sure this was the root cause.

Needless to say, I'm fucking livid that John has again done something so shady, not only by selling these kits as "Custom" ARP's, publicly stating they are STRONGER than the standard ARP kit sold for our cars and publicly and personally stating to this forum and myself that these should be torqued to 90 lbs.

With that said, I do put a good deal of blame on myself for giving him another chance after everything he's put this community through. I definitely just fell into the trap of thinking he had maybe turned a new leaf when I saw the numbers Erich put up. I will NEVER deal with John/PTP/DFDD/HPFP Upgrade/Tork Motorsport and any other bullshit company he created EVER again though, and I would urge everyone else here to take that same approach.

Ok, now aside from this bullshit, I do wanna just say it was great meeting Pablo and seeing all the motors and other things he's working on to further this platform. Great guy, and I have NO doubt when I get this motor back from him, it will exactly what I'm looking for.

Moral of the story
ALWAYS work with SPEED6 KILLAH
NEVER work with PTP

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by phate Yes and yes, lol. Would love to know the tolerance on these things and how much they're actually stretched after two 90lb-ft torquing sessions. Edit: Realgib3 - What was your method for torquing them? Did you use oil or fastener lubricant (like ARP ultra torque)?

Just saw your edit and I used ARP Ultra Torque both times, torquing them in 3 passes, just like the ARP instructions state, but unfortunately the 3rd pass was to 90lbs lol.

[Tabasco69]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 +1 even if the oring on the plug fails itll still hold enough pressure to be ok, we run alot of extra pressure.

not to argue but how exactly do you know this? is this an assumption, I know of an actual real life instance where that o-ring failed for whatever reason and the engine lost oil pressure and spun a main bearing, so for me the possibility exsist.

ARP head bolts, with lubricant, sequential torque procedure, specifially the stud's starting point hand tight- the nuts get torqued 20/40/60ftlbs DONE

[Realgib3]

Just wanted to pull some of John's quotes/lies from a thread on here.

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE Yes, 220k psi studs. Torque, is 88 to 92 ft lbs. Gasket is our 5 layer gasket with copper coat on it. WHP at 42 psi was not much more than the 708 we recorded.

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE Thanks for clearing that up. ARP makes a 10mm stud that is rated at 210,000 psi (sorry not 220,000 psi). They are the proper length and will support 115 ft lbs before stretching. The key is getting the proper load into the head of the nut. The ARP package nuts are way to small and allow the washer to flex under heavy load, thus letting the head move around a little and causing the gasket to move. It took me several phone calls and trying different length studs before I had something that worked. I want to say that they are a full shank L19 stud, but I don't remember all the details (could be a 2000 series material as well). I know that the little bastards cost $14 each and that is when I buy them 100 at time. Thanks, John

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE I am going to say that our are the 2000 series studs. I have to double check, but that seems right. We took the studs to 115 ft lbs for testing purposes only. I would never recommend 115 ft lbs on a customers car. 60ft lbs works with off the shelf ARP stuff, but you can add 10% to that if you want a little extra protection on that high boost big turbo build. DJ... 1st. You have no proof of you car making any real numbers. Its all been VD results or crazy correction factors. Any time slips? 2nd. I am not using the ARP packaged studs, I should have been clear on that when the post was made. With the APR packaged kits I do TQ them over the recommend 60 ft lbs. 72 ft lbs is what we use. I use this with huge success, and zero problems. Sorry about the confusion with not being clear. Thanks, John

Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE Correct, and I made assumptions. So let me clear this up for everyone. 1. If you buy ARP studs in a kit from 60ft lbs will work, but I would recommend 10% over that. Call ARP and ask them if that is going to be OK. 2. I torque all ARP stud kits to 72 ft lbs on my customer builds. Not one single issue to date and this is with several builds to back this number up. 3. We were in Erich's thread talking about his build and his studs in his car (sorry about all the "his"). I made the assumption that Joesy was asking about the studs on his car and the studs that we offer on the site now, that assumption got some confusion for those reading. The studs that I offer for this application are custom and they are 2000 series 210,000 psi studs that you torque to 92 ft lbs. These custom studs, nuts and washers support the shop car at 700 + WHP and over 40 lbs of boost. Thanks, John

Fuck that guy.

[Tabasco69]

Lol John, that guy is the rodney dangerfield of the mazdaspeed crowd, I saw eric's car dyno back in august over at corksport, yepp it sure does make a lot of power and a nice dyno sheet, all he needs now is a deccent time slip to go along with it.

[SilverDemon]

I am real sorry to hear about this... You are a great guy, and have a bunch of innovative ideas about this platform....with that said.......


So, what your saying.... john is a lying piece of shit, that will tell anyone what they want to hear?

I can't believe it!! <-------sarcasm

[silvapain]

... And that's why I'm only torquing my PTP head studs to 60 ft-lbs.


Tapadatass

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon I am real sorry to hear about this... You are a great guy, and have a bunch of innovative ideas about this platform....with that said....... So, what your saying.... john is a lying piece of shit, that will tell anyone what they want to hear? I can't believe it!! <-------sarcasm

Ohhh Scott how you make me el-oh-el.

These words are all too true though...

john is a lying piece of shit, that will tell anyone what they want to hear?

[06Speed6]

Sent ARP an email

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by Tabasco69 not to argue but how exactly do you know this? is this an assumption, I know of an actual real life instance where that o-ring failed for whatever reason and the engine lost oil pressure and spun a main bearing, so for me the possibility exsist. ARP head bolts, with lubricant, sequential torque procedure, specifially the stud's starting point hand tight- the nuts get torqued 20/40/60ftlbs DONE

If the oring fails the metal plug is partially blocking the passage still, the oil squirers are also spring loaded and shut off when there is low pressure. You only need around 20psi for low loads and rpms. I wouldnt race it with a failed oring but you should still be able to limp it home.

Edit: I drove my engine about 170 miles with a blown oil filter housing seal and it ran down the hwy at 80mph just fine between 10-15 psi because the oil pump would start cavitating when it got to around 1qt in the pan and ide have to fill it back up. High oil pressures are a modern engine thing, they run just fine at much lower pressures. Some race engines run really low pressures because high pressure pumps are a waste of hp.

[06Speed6]

Nothin from arp yet.

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Nothin from arp yet.

Interested to see what they say.

On their site though, I found a chart suggesting 70lbs for their 10mm 2,000 series studs and 90lbs for their 11mm studs... We have 10mm studs so my couch was fucked.

Since doubleflusher got the last L19's in existence, I think my only (or best choice at least) may be to go with a larger diameter stud, 7/16 or 11mm, to get the clamping force necessary for my future power goals. Just not sure how much the machine work would be since the block would need tapped larger and the head would need machined some too. I can't believe it would cost more than buying the 625 material ARP's though, but who knows.

On another note... While I have the motor out yet AGAIN (laughable at this point), what else do you guys think I should Upgrade???

Now, I've done a lot, so there isn't much more to do, but off the top of my head, I'm thinking Euro trans, valvetrain, cams, sending clutch for unicorn dusting, gauges, etc.

What, if any of that would you guys highly recommend? And is there anything else you can think of that would be more beneficial? Not saying I'll do any of it, just looking for opinions...

gracias

[phate]

Cosworth makes an H11 tool steel head stud for our cars which is very similar to the L19's from ARP. Hell of a lot cheaper, as well. I picked up a set from MAPerformance.

[Tomas]

^ Link?
I can only see ARP studs for sale on their web site.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Tomas ^ Link? I can only see ARP studs for sale on their web site.

I just checked and they aren't on the site. I can find a part # if you want one, but they told me about them over the phone when I ordered a few other goodies.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 Interested to see what they say. On their site though, I found a chart suggesting 70lbs for their 10mm 2,000 series studs and 90lbs for their 11mm studs... We have 10mm studs so my couch was fucked. Since doubleflusher got the last L19's in existence, I think my only (or best choice at least) may be to go with a larger diameter stud, 7/16 or 11mm, to get the clamping force necessary for my future power goals. Just not sure how much the machine work would be since the block would need tapped larger and the head would need machined some too. I can't believe it would cost more than buying the 625 material ARP's though, but who knows. On another note... While I have the motor out yet AGAIN (laughable at this point), what else do you guys think I should Upgrade??? Now, I've done a lot, so there isn't much more to do, but off the top of my head, I'm thinking Euro trans, valvetrain, cams, sending clutch for unicorn dusting, gauges, etc. What, if any of that would you guys highly recommend? And is there anything else you can think of that would be more beneficial? Not saying I'll do any of it, just looking for opinions... gracias

Well I am going to start to making custom H11 head studs 10mm and offer 7/16 studs too mean drilliing out the old thread and putting new ones in it but that all that in another thread. But im runnig 7/16 which is way bigger then 10mm studs. But I think you will be okay with the STD arp studs as along you don't knock.

[Tomas]

part number PR7115?
Have you looked into the timing chain they offer?

Oh hey.
Streetunit haz them. You must have gotten a good deal on them because as they sit at SU that's a lot of dorrah.

Cosworth Cylinder Head Stud Kit Mazda MZR

[phate]

Originally Posted by Tomas part number PR7115? Have you looked into the timing chain they offer? Oh hey. Streetunit haz them. You must have gotten a good deal on them because as they sit at SU that's a lot of dorrah. Cosworth Cylinder Head Stud Kit Mazda MZR

Yeah, that looks to be them. Cheaper from MAP, though

Cosworth timing chain? Going to make sure the N/A timing chain is the same part# as the DISI.

Edit: L3K9-12-201A is the part # for both the DISI and N/A 2.3l. Should work fine, but I wonder if there's any real difference.