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 Old 12-22-2017, 09:07 AM   #1
 
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Default Built Motors - P2W and Ring Gap Thread

I'm in the process of building an engine and I'm getting mixed information on what clearances I should be running. Specifically P2W and End Gaps.

The information provided with the Manley 2618 pistons suggests .003 P2W for coated pistons, which these are. I've been told that's way too tight for 2618's.
The provided sheet (see attachment) also lists suggested ring gaps that vary depending on what set up you have, which I completely understand. More HP/more heat -> more cold ring gap so that the running ring gap is adequate to not bind.

I'm shooting for about 450whp, which on a MS6 is about 600 crank...give or take. According to the Manley suggestion chart, the ring gaps should be:
...Assuming I'd have to exceed 30psi on this Corksport turbo to get there...
Top Ring: .0277 (.008 x 3.4645, 88mm)
Mid Ring: .0277 (.008 x 3.4645)
Bot Ring: .015 Minimum

Those numbers don't look right to me as I've occasionally seen ring gaps posted on this forum that are tighter.

So to the main point of this post is this:
An all inclusive reference for anyone doing a build.
Please post what you are running in your build.
Please list all parameters that apply to this subject. Such as...

Piston Material (cast, 4032, 2618, coated/uncoated)
P2W Clearance
At what ambient temps do you start to hear piston slap on cold starts
End Gaps
Compression/Leakdown Test Results (specify cold or warm/hot)
Boost
Fuel (Pump, E85 mix %, WMI & nozzle size, Nitrous & shot size)
Dyno numbers. While vDyno might not be perfect, I think it's close enough for this subject.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg image.jpeg (812.4 KB, 41 views)
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White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
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Other rides:
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2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)

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 Old 12-29-2017, 03:42 PM   #2
 
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My machinist used the same chart you reference but we did medium boost so 0.007" x bore.

I think the tighter gaps are from people following the Mazda engine assembly manual. Those tighter OEM gaps may be what cause the OEM ringland failures - not weak ringlands.
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 Old 12-29-2017, 03:48 PM   #3
 
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Ya. The OEM ring gaps are very tight. Too much heat and the rings expand enough to butt together and bind up against the cylinder walls like nobody's business...bye bye ringlands.

It's great for nearly stock engines. Tight clearances are one of the reasons engines last longer these days. Last time I checked compression, 130k+ miles on my engine, and it was pumping in the 180's. My beater truck has 354k miles and compression is in the 190's.
@shamie;
In the best interest of the thread, do you recall:
Which piston?
P2W clearance?
Experiencing piston slap when cold?
How much power ard you making?
Spraying meth? Nozzle?
Using E85? Mix?
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Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
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Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
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2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)

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 Old 12-30-2017, 07:41 AM   #4
 
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Well i have the gray sp63 2618 pistons which i believe are Manley coated and when i asked sp63 what the PWC was set at they responded .0029. So being it was almost a year later (block sat in garage while accumulating parts) they may of not known and just gave me a generic answer.
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 Old 12-31-2017, 02:18 PM   #5
 
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@Fstrnyou;
Manley rods (just the H beams not the Turbo Tuff Pros) and Manley pistons from Edge. The P2W clearance was right on what Manley specs out at 0.0035" - that was about all the first builder did right when he had it bored out (88mm pistons).

I've never noticed any piston slap but I do have a pretty noisy engine bay - AT internals, BSD, and ACT clutch.

I was making ~320 (VD) with the 2867 on 91 octane. I was knock limited with the higher compression from 2 head mills.

Now I'm making 285 on 91 and 320 on e31 back on my original k04. There's probably more left on the table but my wt/HP is where I need it for TT4 and there are areas other than HP I need to address to bring my times down (aero)
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 Old 12-31-2017, 02:26 PM   #6
 
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Good to know you have no issues with that P2W doing TT runs.
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AWR TMM on stand-by
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2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 12-31-2017, 05:26 PM   #7
 
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Which piston? Manley standard bore, non coated when first on the market.
P2W clearance? .0035, used a brand new block.
Experiencing piston slap when cold? it was built near 3 years ago and done 35000 miles, i don't hear any slap at all as yet. It gets used as a daily, long cruises and drags
How much power are you making? Not sure, it has trapped 124.95 mph with full interior
Spraying meth? Nozzle? 100% meth using a devils own DVC30 kit and uses a cooling mist CM14 nozzle.
Using E85? Mix? No E85
Boost..around 28psi.

Haven't done a compression test in a while but it barely uses any oil and the catch can doesn't have much in it when i check it each 3000miles at oil changes.

I also have all the parts here ready to take to the engine builder including a set of coated Manley pistons with upgraded wrist pins to forge and sleeve the original motor that came out of it, which will have meth port injection and a precision 6062 on it.
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 Old 12-31-2017, 06:52 PM   #8
 
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Have you done any roll racing or highway pulls? 4th, 5th, 6th gear? I have occasionally done that...in Mexico of course...on my stock block but I'm not pushing much power. 300wtq/300whp at MOST on a good day.

I need to build with enough clearance to accommodate that amount of heat. Again, 2618 pistons.

Once enough data is in this thread, I'll start plugin' them in a spreadsheet for anyone wanting to do build their own engine.
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Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Speed support vehicle.
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 12-31-2017, 07:31 PM   #9
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Have you done any roll racing or highway pulls? 4th, 5th, 6th gear? I have occasionally done that...in Mexico of course...on my stock block but I'm not pushing much power. 300wtq/300whp at MOST on a good day.

I need to build with enough clearance to accommodate that amount of heat. Again, 2618 pistons.

Once enough data is in this thread, I'll start plugin' them in a spreadsheet for anyone wanting to do build their own engine.
Yeah man it has had a lot of roll racing and sustained WOT pulls through all gears when we go on carmeet/cruises, the car has also had long trips where it has been driven for 15 hours straight, a quick sleep then another 15 hours across Country here in Australia a number of times, that include heaps of WOT during over taking lines of trucks using 5th and 6th on single lane roads.
I am also guilty of doing a lot of short trips before reaching the correct engine temps and it has zero issues

The Long skirts beefy ringlands and overall design of the Manley 2618 piston to not slap does it's job.
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 Old 12-31-2017, 08:57 PM   #10
 
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Stumbled on this thread from 2014 when the Manley 2618 Pistons were somewhat new.
Good read.
Manley Pistons, arrived with not much fanfare

Also, in that thread is a useful link to ring gap myths...
Institution Of Diagnostic Engineers
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2006 MS6 GT - 161.5k Miles(Forged@157,116)
Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Speed support vehicle.
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 12-31-2017, 10:58 PM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by 5doorsoffury View Post
Well i have the gray sp63 2618 pistons which i believe are Manley coated and when i asked sp63 what the PWC was set at they responded .0029. So being it was almost a year later (block sat in garage while accumulating parts) they may of not known and just gave me a generic answer.
The grey 2618 pistons are a custom ordered Mahle piston, not Manley.
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 Old 01-01-2018, 03:33 AM   #12
 
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This is an interesting read, need more posters for info.
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 Old 01-01-2018, 05:25 AM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by impossible View Post
The grey 2618 pistons are a custom ordered Mahle piston, not Manley.
Mahle Manley they all look the same after a few cups of irish coffie!
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 Old 01-01-2018, 08:24 AM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Also, in that thread is a useful link to ring gap myths...
Institution Of Diagnostic Engineers
That's a good read. They state that as piston rings wear out, the end gap gets bigger. Makes me wonder if higher mileage engines have a smaller chance of ring butting at the expense of slight compression loss.
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 Old 01-05-2018, 04:19 PM   #15
 
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Default Interesting info direct from Manley

Hello,

Happy New Year.....and thank you for your email, your business and kind words below. It is greatly appreciated!

Based on below, you are using Manley pistons P/N 630005C-4 or 630005CE-4 (if you got the wrist pin upgrade).......see catalog page 14 of attached

Honestly, based on details you provided below, I would still recommend .003" PTW (piston to wall) clearance with these pistons.....they will perform great there.....it's not "too" tight. If you wind up at .0032" when bore/hone the block, that's not the end of the world either.....but I wouldn't bigger

Have fun with it! Let me know if have any other questions

-----Original Message-----
From: Secon Dary [mailto:27244383s@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2018 10:32 PM
To: Sales Manley
Subject: Mazda MZR and Manley 2618 Platinum Pistons - PWC / P2W Clearance

Thank you for taking the time to read my inquiry. I am building a 2.3L Mazda MZR DISI Turbo, 88mm cylinder bore. My daily driver power goals are, at most, 125whp per cylinder with boost in the high 20's. That's a bit much for pump gas, so I will be using an E85 mix, if that matters. I see the spec sheet says 0.0030 PWC for coated pistons. If that's the minimum, what do you recommend for my power goals?

Thanks again. I'm using your H-Tuff rods too. Both beautiful looking components.
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1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 08-29-2018, 05:52 AM   #16
 
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To OP: Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I am building my motor with Mahle 4032 and I gotta say there is an error in your post relating to the gaps

"Bot Ring: .0519 (.015 X 3.4645)" is actually wrong
The bottom ring gap is straight 0.015 (or about 0.4mm). Do not multiply with the Bore!!
Please update your first post so people will not mess up their builds
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 Old 08-29-2018, 08:14 AM   #17
 
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Foroot about this thread and my apologies for the typo.
It has been fixed.

My build:
I told machine shop to set P2W at 3.5, despite Manley's email confirming 3 thou is good.
When I got the block back, I measured P2W to be in a range of 3.2 to 3.8. Less than pleased.
I built it as it was and set ring gaps to .024 / .026

With BSD and ACT clutch, I too have a noisy engine bay. But it doesn't get any quieter when warm/hot, so no piston slap yet. I'm curious what winter will bring.
__________________
2006 MS6 GT - 161.5k Miles(Forged@157,116)
Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Speed support vehicle.
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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