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 Old 07-31-2019, 06:13 AM   #1
 
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I have an Ď08 Speed3 that has developed an issue. 70mph pull in 5th gear get a bit over 100 and it starts having hesitation then has a big fall on its face hard. 5th gear at 55 WOT testing the issue the BOV pressurizes and releases pressure and repeats until you let off.

Hooked up a MD-805 Scan Tool and it is not throwing a code for hard code or pending.

Fuel PSI builds to about 1675 and drops to between 1400-1550 after 4500-5000 RPM
MAP PSI under 5th gear pulls at 55 hits 32psi.

Car is stock with a MS Cold Air w/AEM straightener and Corksport TIP and Bypass hose.

I cleaned the MAF sensor and air filter.

Scan tool reads all sensors in normal operational ranges

Some help would be appreciated. Iím in the Bullhead AZ area.
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 Old 07-31-2019, 06:18 AM   #2
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Your fuel pump is failing. You need upgraded HPFP internals, or you're going to blow your motor up. You're also overboosting.

The stock turbo will not hit 32psi, pretty much no matter how hard you push it. Therefore, I'm going to assume that you're actually only hitting 32psi-ambient or about 17.3psi. The OEM tune set to max out at 15.5psi. Therefore, you're overboosting, your fuel pressure is not sufficient (it should remain above 1600psi at all times during WOT), and you're very likely to blow your motor if you don't fix the underlying problem.
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 Old 07-31-2019, 06:37 AM   #3
 
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Not sure if itís actually hitting that PSI in the Turbo, no gauge. Just the scanner is showing the MAP hitting 32psi under WOT


I want the CS HPFP internals. Was my next scheduled mod. I am also concerned that The Stock Bypass Valve is failing.

Does anyone near me have a COBB Access Port to verify readings my AUTEL MD-805 is showing?
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 Old 07-31-2019, 07:40 AM   #4
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The MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor is what measures boost pressure. The fact that you're getting 32psi readings from your MD-805 suggests that it is reading "absolute" rather than "above ambient". Either way, you're above the stock boost pressure by enough to cause concern.

You need to stop going WOT or putting the car under significant load until you have properly dealt with your fuel pressure issues.
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 Old 07-31-2019, 08:12 AM   #5
 
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At your altitude, you have 14 psi of atmospheric pressure. 32psi absolute means you have 18psi of boost which is high, as Vansquish pointed out.

The fuel pressure dropping at 4500-5000rpm is higher than the typical low RPM overloading of the stock HPFP, so there may be a different fuel issue here. Maybe the in-tank fuel pump is failing?

The HPFP should be upgraded regardless. So do that first. If there is still a fuel pressure dip in the mid-to-upper RPM range, look into the HPFP supply side fuel pressures.
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 Old 07-31-2019, 01:15 PM   #6
 
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''fall on it's face hard'' may sound like an overboost cut like it is programmed to do on stock tune arounf 17.4-18.2 relative psi (18+14 = 32)
on the ms3 there is also a throttle close above 16.5psi, if this is triggered it may command the pump pressure to drop at some point...you would need to data log it if the injector duty increase while pressure drop it is definitely pump limit reached...

I wouldn't drive the car under those conditions again but you may take a look toward the EBCS hose and wastegate actuator to make sure there is no broken hose or plugged one that prevent the wastegate from opening corretly.
You can test it at rest by using a portable air tank/compressor with the regulator set to around 10-15psi (not full blast to puncture the wg) You disconnect the larger hose on the wastegate from the turbo and you send air into it. You shouldn't ear leak and somewhere around 12psi, you should see that wastegate arm moving....(let say between 10-15 for gage error)
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 Old 07-31-2019, 03:41 PM   #7
 
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Jeff can I use my Mighty Vac w/gauge to check actuation and leak down? It can do both pressure and vacuum pressure
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 Old 07-31-2019, 04:43 PM   #8
 
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A vacuum won't be able to produce usable amounts of pressure or vacuum for what you're trying to do.
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 Old 07-31-2019, 05:42 PM   #9
 
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Fstrnyou, when at 70mph on a flat grade in 6th, where should fuel pressures be sitting?
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 Old 07-31-2019, 07:32 PM   #10
 
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Usually when I'm cruising around at 80mph or so, my fuel pressure bounces around slightly above and below 1600psi.
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 Old 07-31-2019, 08:12 PM   #11
 
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Talked to the wife, I get my CS HPFP internals. She doesn’t want the thing grenading.

My 70mph 6th gear cruising pressure was showing between 1000-1100

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 Old 07-31-2019, 09:28 PM   #12
 
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You can't really go wrong with CS or AT internals.

I'm maxing out my injectors at 115% DC and my fuel pressure at 6500rpm is still near 2000psi.
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 Old 07-31-2019, 10:26 PM   #13
 
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It is ordered, had some points left over from my last purchase. Wonít be the last. I plan on getting the upgraded redesigned version of the K0-4 from CS. I occasionally have the smoking turbo issue, Iím assuming possibly from overboost but wonít know until I install the internals.

Is the Cobb locked into a single computer or can someone with a Cobb map my car for the CAI, TIP and HPFP?
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 Old 08-01-2019, 04:03 AM   #14
 
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Locked (married)
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'06 MS6 GT-167k Miles(Forged@157,116)
Manley Pistons & Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, ITV22, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Rear Russian Bushings, Poly FSB Bushings
Magnaflow CBE, ACT 6-puck/Streetlite
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/OCC/PCV Plate
Other rides:
2014 F-150 XLT SuperCrew Ecoboost
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (13.467 @ 105.44)
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 08-01-2019, 05:19 AM   #15
 
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The CS4 isn't a k04 direct replacement, it has larger internal wheels to make more powers So you need the higher range map sensor that should came with it, but you would need a tuner device and a personal tune made for you before you drive it.

I would rather look at your problem and fix it before upgrading the turbo...
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2012 Mazda3 Gs-sky 6.5l/100 when transporting speed parts
1989 GM 6.2 diesel pickup
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2007 speed3 burned (i'm proud to ran 12.7s with it)

...Because French Canadian...

If you check for leaks and you didn't made a test under compressor pressure, you aren't done checking for leaks....
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 Old 08-01-2019, 06:38 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by LoveMySpeed3 View Post
It is ordered, had some points left over from my last purchase. Wonít be the last. I plan on getting the upgraded redesigned version of the K0-4 from CS. I occasionally have the smoking turbo issue, Iím assuming possibly from overboost but wonít know until I install the internals.

Is the Cobb locked into a single computer or can someone with a Cobb map my car for the CAI, TIP and HPFP?
Dude. Please read some more. The questions you're asking have been answered many, MANY times before.

I'm not just suggesting this because it's frustrating to keep repeating the same information, but because it will actually help you learn more about the car and the platform so that you'll be able to make informed decisions for yourself in the long run.

The CS turbo is NOT a simple replacement for the stock K04. It is significantly larger than stock. You have to have a tuning device and a custom tune (not an off-the-shelf map) to run that turbo. You cannot use someone else's COBB AP, Versatuner, Hypertech, or the like to tune your car. They are each VIN-locked and have to be un-married from other vehicles in order to work on your car.
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 Old 08-01-2019, 06:39 PM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by LoveMySpeed3 View Post
Not sure if itís actually hitting that PSI in the Turbo, no gauge. Just the scanner is showing the MAP hitting 32psi under WOT


I want the CS HPFP internals. Was my next scheduled mod. I am also concerned that The Stock Bypass Valve is failing.

Does anyone near me have a COBB Access Port to verify readings my AUTEL MD-805 is showing?
I had the same "issue" in the Torque app, complete with graph.
Your tool proly has a toggle in settings, you are in Absolute, just as V stated.
17.3 is high, but hittable assuming cold ambient, and about 3/4 psi error in measurement.

the OEM BPV is very robust, but the hose from the BS to TIP is not.

Autotech's should be first scheduled mod
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 Old 08-01-2019, 07:16 PM   #18
 
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Also, do not go full throttle below 3,000 rpm in any gear. Your connecting rods do not like that.

If you want to address the smoking turbo problem and stick with K04 flow, get a BNR S1 turbo. It is a true plug and play that works with your existing mods, stock tune and any tune developed for the K04. It is a K04 externally, with identical flow, but with much more robust journals, bearings and seals (Garrett GT28 internals).

Finally after you get the upgraded pump internals installed and confirm you have 1600+ psi under load, check your plug gap. If it gets too wide you get boost cut. Boost blows out the spark. Gap them down to .024” to .026”.
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 Old 08-13-2019, 02:12 AM   #19
 
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Installed the internals today, drove 100 miles on it keeping it out of boost.

I tested after the break in period at freeway speed (70 MPH) 6th gear, I watched my pressure 1850 and climbing. Which is good.

I still am experiencing surging. I did not continue testing once it started surging.

MSMS3, I will check in the AM and regap if necessary.

Meical, I had already replaced my stock hose with a CS on between the BPV and TIP. I will be inspecting all hoses and connections in the turbo system in the AM since I will have to pull the TMIC off to check plug gap.
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 Old 08-13-2019, 08:45 AM   #20
 
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Are you doing WOT in 6th?
Don't do that...
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 Old 08-13-2019, 01:44 PM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by LoveMySpeed3 View Post
Installed the internals today, drove 100 miles on it keeping it out of boost.

I tested after the break in period at freeway speed (70 MPH) 6th gear, I watched my pressure 1850 and climbing. Which is good.

I still am experiencing surging. I did not continue testing once it started surging.

MSMS3, I will check in the AM and regap if necessary.

Meical, I had already replaced my stock hose with a CS on between the BPV and TIP. I will be inspecting all hoses and connections in the turbo system in the AM since I will have to pull the TMIC off to check plug gap.
Break yourself from going full throttle in 6th gear. It's not a good thing to lug this engine and 6th, which is an overdrive, is really for cruising, or for very high speeds (over 100 mph). I don't think you can get above 3,000 rpm in 6th untll you are going at least 80, and then you are lugging this engine with that kind of load and low rpm.

Do your wide open throttle testing in 3rd or 4th gear and over 3,000 rpm.

The single most likely way to bend a connecting rod on this engine is to operate the car under high load at low rpm. Except when cruising, it's best to stay in the power band which begins at 3,500 rpm but is really fattest between 4,000 and 5,500 (or 6,000 if you have a tune). When going to pass someone, it's almost always a good idea to drop down a gear or two.
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 Old 08-13-2019, 02:38 PM   #22
 
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Plug gap was .028, closed them to .025. Original plugs with 41k miles on them. They look normal. Not too much carbon, not white or blackened. No wear on the electrode.

Pistons look clean with normal dusting of carbon on them, no buildup of carbon.

Took off my turbo inlet pipe and inspected the turbo. It is clean, no oil. Zero shaft play on the impeller. Spins freely and smoothly.

Inspected all of my vacuum lines. Tight fits, no cracking.

BPV has tight spring pressure. No leaking of the diaphragm when you plug the BPV.

Am going to reinstall all intake parts. Then clean the MAF. Air Filter was cleaned at last oil change.
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 Old 08-13-2019, 06:07 PM   #23
 
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Did a 3rd gear pull at 3000 rpm all the way to 6k.

Peak MAP pressure was 29.3 Fuel pressure held at 1832. My friend who runs SRT Neons said subtract 14.7 for 700 Elevation and thatís total boost of 14.6.

He also suspects my wastegate solenoid isnít working correctly. Said it can cause boost spikes or surging.

Does this sound correct?
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 Old 08-13-2019, 09:37 PM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by LoveMySpeed3 View Post
Did a 3rd gear pull at 3000 rpm all the way to 6k.

Peak MAP pressure was 29.3 Fuel pressure held at 1832. My friend who runs SRT Neons said subtract 14.7 for 700 Elevation and that’s total boost of 14.6.

He also suspects my wastegate solenoid isn’t working correctly. Said it can cause boost spikes or surging.

Does this sound correct?
Describe what you mean by “surging”. What you described in you first post is not what most would call surging. Is it still doing the same thing or has the issue changed?

Without data logs to evaluate we are really not going to get very far.
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 Old 08-14-2019, 08:08 AM   #25
 
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Iím not at home to data log with my scan tool and upload. I just got the scan tool recently and will log pulls with it. I will also log a short distance of cruising speed when I notice it is doing it.

The problem has improved and is way less noticeable than it was.

As for what I call surging, is when your at a steady speed you can feel the car slightly accelerate and decelerate itís small pulses without noticing a change in speed on the speedometer. Like quickly on and off power.

When I tested yesterday the 3rd gear pull was solid with no hiccups. It held the pull past 6k without Fallon gun itís face.

Will be going for a longer drive today.
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 Old 08-14-2019, 11:40 AM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by LoveMySpeed3 View Post
I’m not at home to data log with my scan tool and upload. I just got the scan tool recently and will log pulls with it. I will also log a short distance of cruising speed when I notice it is doing it.

The problem has improved and is way less noticeable than it was.

As for what I call surging, is when your at a steady speed you can feel the car slightly accelerate and decelerate it’s small pulses without noticing a change in speed on the speedometer. Like quickly on and off power.

When I tested yesterday the 3rd gear pull was solid with no hiccups. It held the pull past 6k without Fallon gun it’s face.

Will be going for a longer drive today.
Not that it is related, but more as general background for completeness: What BPV or BOV are you running? How is it plumbed, recirc or VTA? Is it user adjustable? What is the condition of the small vacuum/boost hose attached to it?

From your initial post, I am assuming that it is the stock BPV and being run in recirc mode.
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 Old 08-14-2019, 12:48 PM   #27
 
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By definition, a BPV is recirculating (stock). A BOV is VTA.

Please continue.
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 Old 08-14-2019, 02:48 PM   #28
 
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Hereís the list of current mods,

MazdaSpeed CAI 2.75Ē with AEM straightener.
CorkSport - TIP, BP Hose, HPFP Internals

All other parts are stock. I didnít take it too far with upgrades without the HPFP Internals
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 Old 08-14-2019, 03:00 PM   #29
 
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I checked all the hoses, all are tight fitment, no cracking, no deterioration.

Engine gets maintenance every 3k miles with Mobil 1 5w-30 and 1/8th quart of Lucas oil stabilizer. Use Mazda filters

I use 3oz of Lucas fuel treatment in my tank about every 1500 miles.

Run only premium fuel from top tier stations

Air filter gets cleaned every few months.
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 Old 08-14-2019, 06:46 PM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by LoveMySpeed3 View Post
Here’s the list of current mods,

MazdaSpeed CAI 2.75” with AEM straightener.
CorkSport - TIP, BP Hose, HPFP Internals

All other parts are stock. I didn’t take it too far with upgrades without the HPFP Internals
Just to be clear, what are you calling a “BP Hose”? Did you mean the silicone bypass valve hose that Corksport sells? Just the hose but still using the OEM BPV?
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 Old 08-14-2019, 10:47 PM   #31
 
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Yes, the stock BPV with the CS Hose. The factory one started getting cracks where it connects to the BPV
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 Old 08-15-2019, 11:13 AM   #32
 
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Originally Posted by LoveMySpeed3 View Post
Yes, the stock BPV with the CS Hose. The factory one started getting cracks where it connects to the BPV
Thank you. Please post a log 3rd or 4th gear. Single gear only, 3,000 rpm to redline, or at least to 6,000 rpm. Since I'm hearing you say that the problem is gone or mostly gone at wide open throttle, maybe also post a short log (just maybe 30 seconds, no more) of driving under conditions that cause this "surge".

Parameters to log, if you can log this many:

Accel. Pedal Pos.
Actual AFR
Boost
Boosted Air Temp
Calculated Load
Coolant Temp
Engine Speed (RPM)
HPFP Actual Pressure
Injector Duty Cycle
Intake Temp
Intake Valve Adv.
Knock Retard
Long Term FT (LTFT)
MAF Voltage
Mass Airflow (g/s)
Spark Advance
Throttle Position
Vehicle Speed
Wastegate Duty Cycle

If you cant log everything, for these purposes you could delete Intake Temp (ambient), coolant temp, and vehicle speed (as long as we know what gear you logged in).
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 Old 08-15-2019, 06:24 PM   #33
 
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Before I can log, I have a new issue to resolve. My car is not liking temps over 100 with the new plug gap of .025 Iím getting pinging when I give moderate acceleration with some boost.

Air temp was about 111 and altitude was around 2000 feet

Gap was .030 on 3 of the plugs and .029 on one when I gapped them at .025

Air temp is going to be 120 and altitude will be about 600 feet.

Do you think .028 is a good starting point to resolve the pinging?

I will also put another batch of fresh fuel in the tank since my trip home was just under 300 miles and drive it for 20 mins or so to make sure the new fuel is in the lines and remaining fuel is mixed with the new fuel

It is possible I got bad fuel filling up at Costco today. Never had that problem with their fuel before if it is bad fuel.

Last edited by LoveMySpeed3; 08-15-2019 at 06:24 PM. Reason: MSF Database - Automerged Doublepost
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 Old 08-15-2019, 06:47 PM   #34
 
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What brand and number for the plugs? Your gap is a little tight, but that ought not be the cause. Open them to .028”, but I suspect fuel. What octane is the fuel?

You could temporarily dump a couple gallons (no more) of ethanol in to see if the pinging stops. That might help if you have bad fuel until you use it up.
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 Old 08-15-2019, 06:56 PM   #35
 
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Fuel is 91 OCT. never run anything less.

Stock NGK Plugs with 43,000 miles on them. 43,000 on the Odometer
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 Old 08-16-2019, 10:16 AM   #36
 
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Fuel octane can be sketchy in AZ, but try the ethanol test that MSMS3 mentioned. I gapped my denso plugs to .028 and use QT 91. No worries hear but I don't pound the fuck out of my Speed often enough to worry.

Also don't forget it's hot as fuck out. Bad time for doing full pulls and expecting good results.
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 Old 08-16-2019, 10:24 AM   #37
 
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Originally Posted by LoveMySpeed3 View Post
Fuel is 91 OCT. never run anything less.

Stock NGK Plugs with 43,000 miles on them. 43,000 on the Odometer
Add the two gallons of ethanol if available and fill up the tank with 91 from a trusted source.

While likely unrelated, you are probably 20,000 miles overdue for a plug change. The high combustion chamber temps our engine develops are hard on plugs. That "surging" may be misfires and corrections. Just an almost wild guess at this point. We will need a good log to know for sure what is going on, once you have tried resolving the ping. That is a bit unusual, as our ECU is designed to pull (reduce) timing with low octane fuel or when encountering knock for any reason, so I'm surprised you are hearing audible pinging.
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 Old 08-16-2019, 12:46 PM   #38
 
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Our ECU pulls timing with low octane fuel because it is pinging. I'm very certain that's why MS6 and Gen1 knock sensors are so sensitive.

My EcoBoost F150 works the opposite way. The base timing tables are "weak" to handle crap gas. The ECU will add timing above the base table if no KR is detected, which would happen with higher octane fuels.
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 Old 08-16-2019, 02:11 PM   #39
 
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Regapped the plugs to .028. It did lessen the ping but still audible. Was on a 1/4 tank so put fresh fuel in it. My drive to the station is 7 miles, I cruised 20 just to make sure it has flushed the line and mixed the fuel.

Still has an audible ping. Sounds like a coffee can with a few nuts shaking around when under boost. starts happening around 4800rpm

I'm going to throw a new set of plugs in it after this weekend just to eliminate a factor.

I attempted to log but my scan tool only logged one capture of the pull. It did not continue logging any further across the RPM band

2 things I noticed during the pull on the tool was at 4300RPM it is saying my MAP was at 30.3, Incoming Air Temp 117 Degrees, Fuel Rail Pressure 1785 along with other data.

My Autel MD-805 doesn't have boost logging or wastegate operation. I'll need a Cobb Access Port for that.

I was observing the pressure all the way through the pull and it never fell off.

I'm going to mess with the tool to find out how to log the whole pull under normal driving. So I can get you guys the data to look at when I do log a 3rd gear pull.
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 Old 08-17-2019, 05:11 AM   #40
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MAP pressure is boost pressure. The tool is measuring absolute pressure rather than pressure above ambient 30.3psi is actually 30.3(absolute) - 14.7(ambient)= 15.6psi.
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