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 Old 11-14-2015, 05:36 AM   #921
 
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
u think i could still squeeze a 255 on a 9" rim ok without it being sloppy?
I've been running 255's on 9" rims for at least a year.
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 Old 11-14-2015, 12:04 PM   #922
 
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
I've been running 255's on 9" rims for at least a year.
You'd drop some serious time running the same 255s on an 11" wheel I'll bet.

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 Old 11-14-2015, 03:36 PM   #923
 
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Originally Posted by Tyhackman15 View Post
You'd drop some serious time running the same 255s on an 11" wheel I'll bet.
I am shooting for 275's on 11's or 255's on 10's.
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 Old 11-14-2015, 06:45 PM   #924
 
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Update after today's day at the track. The car is running great, I still have some issues to solve though.

1. Need better piping for the FMIC hotside as I popped a coupler again. Last time I used a longer piece of silicone on the turbo outlet and used 2 clamps there so today the next weak link went pop -- the coupler highlighted in yellow.



I think I will pull the turbo, have the outlet shortened about 2" (so the whole piping does not sit as high on that side) and have a 90* elbow welded onto the outlet. On the FMIC side, I will have the first two couplers eliminated and piping welded that extends just over the IM. This way, I will only need one straight piece of tubing and two straight couplers to connect the whole thing, and I will be able to make the couplers super long so I can use two clamps if needed on each side (so a total of 4 clamps per coupler). But at this point I should only need two clamps, and the straight piece will be wedged between the turbo and FMIC piping so it will have nowhere to go. Because a picture is worth a thousand words:



The red piping is welded, the yellow piece is the middle straight tubing, and the blue rectangles are silicone couplers.

2. I need a brace for the master cylinder. The fucking firewall flexes a lot and this is probably why my brake pedal feel is still pretty inconsistent.

So onto the good things is that the FMIC works superb, in today's 70-degree weather my max BAT's were 133 and the average was 113!!!! I was running a 21 psi tune and hit a new max speed on the main straight 143 mph (Cobb AP logged). Intake temps averaged 88 with a max of 93, and the ECT's averaged 193 with a max of 201. Here is a graph from one of the sessions:



Looking back at the logs from 2014, the closest track day was on October 25-26, during the first morning session when the weather could be more comparable to today, the IAT's averaged 98 with a max of 108, the BAT's averaged 150 with a max of 171, the ECT averaged 194 with a max of 201. @Tomas; lay off the pipe and go with my FMIC design rather than relocating the radiator the the rear.

Last but not least, I need more negative camber in the front. The pyro temps on the most loaded front passenger tire were 152-148-171 (inside-middle-outside) after the first session, 164-164-171 after the second one, 173-168-185 after the third one. My last alignment is showing -2.3 degrees of camber, I will probably do -2.7 or so next time (and corner balance the car at the same time).
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 Old 11-15-2015, 10:50 AM   #925
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How did you make so much negative camber?
Btw, did you think about making more caster angle?
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 Old 11-15-2015, 05:30 PM   #926
 
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Originally Posted by svd View Post
How did you make so much negative camber?
Btw, did you think about making more caster angle?
I'll bet a nickel that @Code Monkey; is running SPC Camber Adjustable Ball Joints ... as are most of us. I could be wrong though.
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 Old 11-15-2015, 05:49 PM   #927
 
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Originally Posted by svd View Post
How did you make so much negative camber?
Btw, did you think about making more caster angle?
Originally Posted by sporkbomb View Post
SPC Camber Adjustable Ball Joints
^ What he said + the car is lower a little bit which helps with camber. IIRC the caster is not adjustable on the MS6.

Today at the track I sheared the axle nut on the driver side; I have no idea how it happened, FML. I left the car at the track overnight, will have it towed to the shop tomorrow and post pictures.

Oh, and I got a ride in a Radical to sweeten the day, this thing is ridiculous.
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 Old 11-15-2015, 06:48 PM   #928
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The axle nut thing is pretty weird. In for pics.
I am not relocating the rad to the rear. I am adding an additional one tee-d into the T-case and engine oil cooler water lines. More to follow on that. I already have most of the components I need.
As to your FMIC design, although I like it, I am not getting rid of my condenser. And even if I did, I am not convinced that would prevent my temps from hitting 240. Like I stated in the Dildo Blitz, even with the Speed63performance controller and both fans running at 100% duty cycle all the time, temps still go up to 240. IMO the system just doesen't have the capacity. Not a matter of improving air flow to the rad although I am sure that would help.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 09:19 AM   #929
 
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 Old 11-16-2015, 09:27 AM   #930
 
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 Old 11-16-2015, 09:30 AM   #931
 
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^^^ What he said!
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 Old 11-16-2015, 10:32 AM   #932
 
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Yeah, looks like the threaded part of the shaft broke off, taking the nut with it, what in the fuck.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 10:35 AM   #933
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
The axle nut thing is pretty weird. In for pics.
I am not relocating the rad to the rear. I am adding an additional one tee-d into the T-case and engine oil cooler water lines. More to follow on that. I already have most of the components I need.
As to your FMIC design, although I like it, I am not getting rid of my condenser. And even if I did, I am not convinced that would prevent my temps from hitting 240. Like I stated in the Dildo Blitz, even with the Speed63performance controller and both fans running at 100% duty cycle all the time, temps still go up to 240. IMO the system just doesen't have the capacity. Not a matter of improving air flow to the rad although I am sure that would help.
you have the gauge for it, you should be looking at the pressure differential across the radiator

Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
2. I need a brace for the master cylinder. The fucking firewall flexes a lot and this is probably why my brake pedal feel is still pretty inconsistent.
That shouldn't be terribly difficult to fab out of steel plate with the shock tower right there.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 10:40 AM   #934
 
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Originally Posted by Easter Bunny View Post
That shouldn't be terribly difficult to fab out of steel plate with the shock tower right there.
On the MS6, the master cylinder is touching the intake so there is no space to run a master cylinder brace. I already talked to my shop and while they fix the axles, they will also weld a steel plate on the cabin side to eliminate the flex.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 10:41 AM   #935
 
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
I am shooting for 275's on 11's or 255's on 10's.
Geeze ... i was running 295s (granted nittos, so they're narrow) on a 10" rim ... is there some sort of formula or rule of thumb i can look into for about how much "stretch" you want?

We're trying to decide what to do with Valerie's v6 (~300 whp ~3400 lbs). She was on a set of 245 NT01s on an 8" rim (just my stock GT rims since we had them laying around) and loved the nimble feel of the car, but i cant help but feel she needs more rubber under there as she starts getting faster (she actually got promoted to blue at the end of the day Sunday). You think that same 245 on like a 9 or 9.5" rim would work for her?
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 Old 11-16-2015, 10:46 AM   #936
 
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^ Actually, I was wrong, the M3 driver runs 275's on 9.5" rims, so 17x10 should suffice, I will edit my post above.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 10:51 AM   #937
 
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
^ Actually, I was wrong, the M3 driver runs 275's on 9.5" rims, so 17x10 should suffice, I will edit my post above.
OK. I know the Miata guys would run like a 225 on the 9" 6UL to stabilize the sidewall, but im sure its a much different approach on a mustang. Just trying to get a feel for it all.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 10:56 AM   #938
 
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Geeze ... i was running 295s (granted nittos, so they're narrow) on a 10" rim ... is there some sort of formula or rule of thumb i can look into for about how much "stretch" you want?

We're trying to decide what to do with Valerie's v6 (~300 whp ~3400 lbs). She was on a set of 245 NT01s on an 8" rim (just my stock GT rims since we had them laying around) and loved the nimble feel of the car, but i cant help but feel she needs more rubber under there as she starts getting faster (she actually got promoted to blue at the end of the day Sunday). You think that same 245 on like a 9 or 9.5" rim would work for her?
In the miata world the rule is 1:1. I run 225's on a 15x9. This doesn't seem to scale up though, I think mainly because you can't always fit ridiculously wide wheels on a car that runs a wider tire. But a 245 on a 9 or 9.5 is definitely safe, and should help the car feel more responsive.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 11:11 AM   #939
 
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Miatas are super light. That 225 really makes the winning combo on the miata.
I've been running 255 on 9.5 on my rx8. I can't decide if I should go 275 or go with a better tire in 255 size
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 Old 11-16-2015, 11:38 AM   #940
 
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Originally Posted by Tyhackman15 View Post
In the miata world the rule is 1:1. I run 225's on a 15x9. This doesn't seem to scale up though, I think mainly because you can't always fit ridiculously wide wheels on a car that runs a wider tire. But a 245 on a 9 or 9.5 is definitely safe, and should help the car feel more responsive.
Ok, i looked up the NT-01 on Nitto's website and it says a 245 / 40 / 18 has a width of 9.72, so i guess a "1:1" would be pretty close at a 9.5" rim. That makes sense.

Its gotten to the point where her car is that awkward in between spot. She doesnt want big rubber on there like you need on a 5.0, but a lot of the tires in more narrow sizes on an 18" rim are way too short for a mustang, and i imagine the stretch is going to make them even shorter. Even the 245 40 18 is too short at 25.7", we really want to be up around 27.

I think im going to shoot for something that will go on a 10" rim, that way she can have the "nimbleness" she wants now, but still have a rim that will accommodate some fat rubber when the time comes. Thanks for the help.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 12:24 PM   #941
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
We're trying to decide what to do with Valerie's v6 (~300 whp ~3400 lbs). She was on a set of 245 NT01s on an 8" rim (just my stock GT rims since we had them laying around) and loved the nimble feel of the car, but i cant help but feel she needs more rubber under there as she starts getting faster (she actually got promoted to blue at the end of the day Sunday). You think that same 245 on like a 9 or 9.5" rim would work for her?
Sell it?

Just putting those tires on a wider wheel will make them faster. I bet they're all floppy on that skinny wheel, even though they feel a little crisper than your normal street tire.

The mustangs I compete with almost all run a 315 or 335 on a 10.5-11" wheel, without any fender modification. If you're going to get wheels, anyway, I'd do it once and go big. Just stay on top of suspension maintenance with that much grip. One of the mustangs this weekend (typically the fastest of the bunch) broke a ball joint mid run and did some serious body damage. They broke some other suspension bits last season...strut tube or something like that. It luckily failed at low speed and didn't cause collateral damage like the ball joint.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 01:46 PM   #942
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Sell it?

Just putting those tires on a wider wheel will make them faster. I bet they're all floppy on that skinny wheel, even though they feel a little crisper than your normal street tire.

The mustangs I compete with almost all run a 315 or 335 on a 10.5-11" wheel, without any fender modification. If you're going to get wheels, anyway, I'd do it once and go big. Just stay on top of suspension maintenance with that much grip. One of the mustangs this weekend (typically the fastest of the bunch) broke a ball joint mid run and did some serious body damage. They broke some other suspension bits last season...strut tube or something like that. It luckily failed at low speed and didn't cause collateral damage like the ball joint.
I get where you're coming from, and on my 5.0 i would have stuffed all the tire i could under there, but you dont think at only ~300 whp it would be too much tire? Is that even a thing? Right now im looking at a 255 on a 10" rim since thats almost damn near 1:1 (like 10.05), but i could probably get up to a 285 on there if need be.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 01:49 PM   #943
 
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^ Look at this thread and you can see what hp and tires folks are running, I think at 300 whp you cannot go wrong with 275's.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 02:19 PM   #944
 
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@Code Monkey; have you ever had transfer case/pto leakage issues?
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 Old 11-16-2015, 02:44 PM   #945
 
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Originally Posted by ItsNox View Post
@Code Monkey; have you ever had transfer case/pto leakage issues?
Shut up, shut up, shut up!!!!!!!







No leaks yet, but the shop will double check.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 02:57 PM   #946
 
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Shut up, shut up, shut up!!!!!!!







No leaks yet, but the shop will double check.
Lucky bastard. I'll just leave this here....

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 Old 11-16-2015, 03:05 PM   #947
 
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^^^ Oh the joys of the wonderful scent of transmission fluid reminding you to press the air recirc button.
CorkSport and ItsNox like this.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 03:11 PM   #948
 
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Originally Posted by sporkbomb View Post
^^^ Oh the joys of the wonderful scent of transmission fluid reminding you to press the air recirc button.
Hahah fucking nailed it!! Only another speed6 owner can relate!
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 Old 11-16-2015, 04:33 PM   #949
 
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Originally Posted by sporkbomb View Post
* press the air recirc button
* if equipped
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 Old 11-16-2015, 04:45 PM   #950
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The only reason I can think of why the threaded end of the axle spline broke off like that is because it was overtightened. If you take a big impact on that fucker it's possible. Can't think of any other reason since there is really not much lateral pull on it.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 04:51 PM   #951
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
The only reason I can think of why the threaded end of the axle spline broke off like that is because it was overtightened. If you take a big impact on that fucker it's possible. Can't think of any other reason since there is really not much lateral pull on it.
Had a local guy's MS6 do this, also:



Oddly, his is also tracked extensively and it failed on the track. I assumed it was overtightened, as well. Maybe the heat in the hub assembly the track cars see hastens the failure.

Code Monkey's looks like it was tightened past yield a few times before it completely failed. @KevinK2 might be able to help, probably @xfeejayx, as well.
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 Old 11-16-2015, 07:41 PM   #952
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Without being able to see a full assembly I'm speculating but what is the possibility of whatever the nut is tightened onto expanding enough as it heats up under track use to pop the end off from the pressure?
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 Old 11-17-2015, 12:49 PM   #953
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I wonder if it is from sustained loads? We had an axle nut fail the same way on our B-Spec Mazda 2. We always torqued with with a torque wrench to make sure we did not screw anything up. Granted it is lighter than a speed 6 but its entire life is spent on the track.

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 Old 11-17-2015, 03:42 PM   #954
 
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Yes, I have been bugging Emilio from 949Racing about 17x11 wheels for the past few months....

I'm working down the street from them at the moment. I'll be driving a pickup truck back to ATX after Thanksgiving... If you work something out, I don't mind throwing them in the back.
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 Old 11-17-2015, 05:18 PM   #955
 
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Stopped by the shop today, here's more pictures. The damage is not that bad, I am having replaced:

-- both front axles (passenger side just in case)
-- both front wheel hubs (as per above)
-- driver side speed sensor (damaged)
-- driver side caliper is a bit scorched, nothing a little bit of filing cannot fix
-- the rotor is ok too, nothing a few passes with Emery paper cannot fix

I will also have the firewall reinforced on the cabin side with a weld-in plate, the car should be ready sometime next week.
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 Old 11-18-2015, 07:48 AM   #956
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It's hard to tell from those pictures, need super clean pictures for that type of failure analysis. I'll still take a swag at it.

From what (I think) I can see, that battle was likely lost before you went to the track. It's been cracked for a while if that outside is beaten and shiny. Final snap was due to the tension from the nut, but seeing how much of it was already failed, it doesn't seem like the nut was over torqued at the time.

Going to be near impossible to tell you what started it, but I can tell you with good confidence that it wasn't a single over tightening. When it's a single over tightening the initiated crack both reduces material to take the load, and creates a stress concentrator. Therefore, it will generally shoot right through the material. That's not definitive, but generally the case. You'd also see it partially loaded in shear if it was from over torqueing. I'm not seeing a shear load there, just tensile and bending. Additional load from heat could cause the flat initial crack @Easter Bunny;, but same thing applies that usually it'll go through. It's possible that the little bit of additional strain stress relieved it.

The ridges on the outer diameter are indicative of a fast break, but that core had a slow painful death. It looks like fatigue marks, but hard to tell from the pics.

Likely started on the upper left (from picture when it was still on the car), propagated around, and worked it's way inward.

Unlikely, but possible it started closer to center at some sort of imperfection, worked it's way out, then fast break on the outside. That type of failure would take an even longer time.

The nerd in me wants your stubby.

Edit: Very possible that's a case hardened shaft. If that's the case, then it initiating cracking outboard from torque+heat load and stopping becomes much more plausible. Case hardening would crack due to lower toughness, crack stops at the tougher/softer inner material, then you work that off slowly. This is where my vote is going.
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 Old 11-19-2015, 08:51 AM   #957
 
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Excuse the slightly off-topic post, but to the gentlemen asking about what size tire is appropriate for what size wheel width, this article is very helpful.

How to PROPERLY select and size TIRES for PERFORMANCE > MotoIQ - Automotive Tech, Project Cars, Performance & Motorsports
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 Old 11-19-2015, 11:38 AM   #958
 
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Originally Posted by Lewis7789 View Post
Excuse the slightly off-topic post, but to the gentlemen asking about what size tire is appropriate for what size wheel width, this article is very helpful.

How to PROPERLY select and size TIRES for PERFORMANCE > MotoIQ - Automotive Tech, Project Cars, Performance & Motorsports
It was helpful, thank you. I just started my own thread for the sake of discussion:

Sizing tires to rims?
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 Old 11-24-2015, 06:46 AM   #959
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Somewhat related:
We failed this late last week, thought some of you would be interested. M12, 12.9 bolt.

Clean, tensile break. No beach marks, no hesitation.
The fracture starts at the threads, as expected.
The fracture propagates flat through the brittle section, at the OD.
The fracture hits the softer core, and starts the typical cup/cone you'll see in ductile materials under tensile failure.

There was enough tension to snap it clean through, hence the cup in the center. Not what we see in the axle above, which seems to have worked through the center slowly, in bending.

Being 12.9, tensile strength is 1200Mpa (174Ksi). Make a couple assumptions, do some quick math, this thing probably took 10,000 lbs to snap!
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 Old 12-02-2015, 05:33 PM   #960
 
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$1,100 later and she is back home. I am meeting my welder tomorrow or Friday to discuss fixing the intercooler hotside.

Meanwhile, I have been offered a seat on a World Racing League team, they race a '97 Miata, we are meeting this weekend to swap the lifters on the Miata and to put a racing comm on my helmet. The race is December 12-13, a 9 hour enduro on Saturday and a 7-hour enduro on Sunday.
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