Mythbusted:are there real gains from upgraded turbo intake hose?

[dale_gribble]

***** UPDATE: DATA UNDER REVIEW 10-5-2012 ****
***** BOOTH REVIEW IN PROGRESS ****
***** I WILL UPDATE THIS THREAD WITH MORE INFO****

CL: TIH may be badass pending some data review. My results were invalid due to variation in ambient and intake temperatures between baseline and after TIH runs.

Updated results are here: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post1666561

**** ORIGINAL BAD DATA BELOW **** Regard to link above for correct data. The virtual dyno comparison was incorrect. It looks like the TIH did really help my car when apples to apples comparison was run. The increased boost shown in the second graph is correct however.^^^^^^^^^^^^

There really isn't anything I found that quantifies an upgraded TIH (Turbo Intake Hose) relative to our cars' performance. Further, I have never found any before/after TIH only dyno runs. Most people do the TIH in concert with a tune or intake or something else so the gains of the TIH can't be quantified by itself. At most, I have read that an upgraded TIH gives the car a little more low end grunt and it makes the BPV sound a little louder which adds to the driving experience.

This post quantifies the gains PURELY from a TIH upgrade and NO other changes. In my case, I have the Cobb TIH. I have been able to get consistent run after run for e-tuning at a location near my house. I can make the same run across a month's span and if the conditions are the same, the results will literally stack right on top of each other. So, I have a good solid baseline to work with. My baseline run is without the Cobb TIH using the stock TIH. This is run # 206 in the vd graph below. My car has been outputting very consistent boost, AFR and run data similar to this graph on previous runs.

When I changed out the stock TIH for the Cobb, I did not touch anything else; I didn't clean anything, I didn't adjust anything. I pulled the battery off, disconnected the CAI, swapped the TIH and bolted it back together. I ran a number of runs since with the Cobb TIH and runs are consistent now with the Cobb TIH.

Here are the results:



My data is consistent with others' feedback- the aftermarket TIH gives the engine more torque at the lower rpms but then kind of evens out. The HP line is a little flatter up to redline. I was surprised to see the boost numbers jump up about 1lb across the board to redline. You can see it better in this graph. Here you can see the boost numbers and the MAF voltages. The MAF voltage is a little higher at the lower RPMs around the torque bump in the graph above. The MAF voltage is also a little higher at max RPMs.



I am guessing that in my case, the extra boost didn't effect power above a certain RPM on account of my shit 91 octane CA gas. After my e-tune, my car is on the edge of timing advance without KR, and with any more timing I just get KR. I reckon if I got 93 octane that the gains down low would carry into the higher RPMs from the added boost.

[3Gee Tee]

Excellent experiment and thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[crankshaft]

Stupid NEWB question:

The TIH swap you did is just the turbo inlet, and you retained the stock airbox/filter?

[09Speed3Z]

Originally Posted by crankshaft Stupid NEWB question: The TIH swap you did is just the turbo inlet, and you retained the stock airbox/filter?

Originally Posted by dale_gribble When I changed out the stock TIH for the Cobb, I did not touch anything else; I didn't clean anything, I didn't adjust anything. I pulled the battery off, disconnected the CAI, swapped the TIH and bolted it back together. I ran a number of runs since with the Cobb TIH and runs are consistent now with the Cobb TIH.

Reading > You

[TiGraySpeed6]

Great job dale_gribble


TIH/TIP is not about getting /more/

TIH/TIP is about /doing more/ with what you've already got.

Assuming that you're not changing diameter, as is the case here, but just going from stock to Cobb TIH, then what you get is a smoother, more efficient air path. The results are usually noticeable to the butt dyno as significantly improved & smoothed response, but little if any gain in power.

Not getting more, just making much better use of what you've already got.

Just another part that should've been this way from the factory

[fooqr]

Originally Posted by crankshaft Stupid NEWB question:

At least it's truth in advertising.

OP mentioned that he took off his CAI (CAI=cold air intake) to install his TIH (and then replaced it, of course).

The effect of upgrading any component depends on the degree to which that component is a bottleneck. The stock air box is such a restriction that the effect of changing TIH with stock air box would probably be (even more) negligible.

[phate]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Great job dale_gribble TIH/TIP is not about getting /more/ TIH/TIP is about /doing more/ with what you've already got. Assuming that you're not changing diameter, as is the case here, but just going from stock to Cobb TIH, then what you get is a smoother, more efficient air path. The results are usually noticeable to the butt dyno as significantly improved & smoothed response, but little if any gain in power. Not getting more, just making much better use of what you've already got. Just another part that should've been this way from the factory

I disagree. I doubt there is much turbulence induced by the stock TIP - it's not enough to see it on the MAF readings if there is. Also, the turbo is going increase the air speed significantly within the compressor, then it slows down as it exits the turbo. With the K04 and stock whatever else, air velocity isn't coming close to the speed of sound, which is where turbulence typically does begin.

What is important to note here is that at this power level, the TIP doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter even with a maxed out K04, there is sufficient flow through the TIP to support it. If/when you move to a bigger turbo, you may begin to see a depression caused by the TIP, which is when you will see gains from an aftermarket piece. We really need to ask the question "at what airflow does the TIP begin to be a restriction?"

I dyno'd with an aftermarket TIP and made 330/430 on the K04. I later went back to stock TIP and found no difference in the feel or with VD plots (never redyno'd, not worth it). I have some VD plots in cold weather with the stock TIP showing even more tq/hp, lol. It's just another money waster.

[TiGraySpeed6]

Certainly changed the "feel" on mine. Was a significant, distinct change in feel (smoother, or more linear).

Air speeds may not be that high, but smooth flow is smooth flow, and presenting a consistent wall of air for the turbo to draw from will result in an even, consistent output.

If I was starting over, I'd replace it again, and I'd order it at the same time as the SRI, rather than a month later like I did.

I just don't see it as a quantity thing, rather a quality thing....

[theurgy]

Not to mention when I ended up installing my Cobb TIH, I had found that my stock one was not holding up to the turbo correctly and had become loose. This is apparently a common problem with the plastic unit.
I can't comment on it's effectiveness when properly installed but for me I was glad to have it out, despite that fact that I didn't see a notable difference in power.

[BottleOfCola13]

I've been runnin the 93 OTS tune with my AP and only a COBB TIP.
Purchased it used for a great price and haven't gotten around to the SRI yet.
Building one.

However, I did notice similar results.
According to my AP (not always spot on) I have been hitting consistant boost of 18psi.
Before hand 17 was about where it stopped.
I have had a couple instances of 19psi but I think it was an AP hiccup.
Car seems like it doesn't mind TIP only.
Not much of a change felt, if any then nothing substantial.
Just tossin in my 2cents.

[dale_gribble]

I'll put it this way after the experiment. I wouldn't spend $180 on one again knowing what I know now. It's worth $50. It isn't with $180. If your stock shit ain't broke, save the $180 for something else IMO. I bought this mod early on because I thought I would be cool if I ran the OTS + CAI + TIH map...

Turns out I wasn't cool at all.

[3Gee Tee]

I just want the extra pshhhh sounds.

[dale_gribble]

I say 25% more pshhhhh sound is worth about $25-$35 USD.

[TiGraySpeed6]

lolz

Agreed- it's not worth $180

[theurgy]

LOL Hence why I didn't buy mine new.... MSF Buy/Sell FTW!

[BottleOfCola13]

I don't have any pshhhhh sounds.
And the no-sound wasnt changed by puttin on the TIP.
SRI shall be built so I too can have that lovely pshhhhhhh sound.

[Lex]

The thing that throws me off here is that difference in boost. Was the temperature significantly different in the two runs? Post up both logs.

On a load based tune the car adjust boost (in the midrange) to achieve load targets. If the part flows worse or the temps are higher boost will go up.

In the top end, on most tunes the WGDC reaches ~95% and boost just rides it out outside of the ECUs control. In this later stage of the run, a better flowing part/lower temps on the intake will generally allow for more boost and higher airflow.

I see the COBB intake does this in the upper end.

Point is, make sure the IATs are very similar when doing these back to backs - within 2-3 degrees.

EDIT: A larger diameter intake from filter to turbo has shown some significant gains in airflow.

[TRex]

Originally Posted by phate I disagree. I doubt there is much turbulence induced by the stock TIP - it's not enough to see it on the MAF readings if there is. Also, the turbo is going increase the air speed significantly within the compressor, then it slows down as it exits the turbo. With the K04 and stock whatever else, air velocity isn't coming close to the speed of sound, which is where turbulence typically does begin. What is important to note here is that at this power level, the TIP doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter even with a maxed out K04, there is sufficient flow through the TIP to support it. If/when you move to a bigger turbo, you may begin to see a depression caused by the TIP, which is when you will see gains from an aftermarket piece. We really need to ask the question "at what airflow does the TIP begin to be a restriction?" I dyno'd with an aftermarket TIP and made 330/430 on the K04. I later went back to stock TIP and found no difference in the feel or with VD plots (never redyno'd, not worth it). I have some VD plots in cold weather with the stock TIP showing even more tq/hp, lol. It's just another money waster.

phate, any comment on Lex's recent findings regarding large intakes producing roughly the same gains as a DP

are you saying at the end of the day we are simply benefiting from a large maf? not necessarily large everything else

stock turbo of course

[dale_gribble]

Here are the two logs. The baseline log (206) was taken on a cooler day (65F ambient). The TIH log (213) was taken on a warmer day (78F ambient).

IATs were > 1-2 degrees off between the runs.

[phate]

I think simply moving away from the stock filter housing to an after market option is sufficient.

You can test this two ways:

1) power output at a specific boost pressure. IAT/BAT needs to remain pretty consistent

2) Run 100% WGDC with a bad ass fuel, tune each to mbt, and watch power output. IAT/BAT must remain fairly consistent here as well.

Notice I did not say "look at differences in airflow". MAF is not a good indicator of gain/loss between two different hard parts set ups. Virtual Dyno is not likely sufficient for this testing.

My tune was more like the second method It was tuned and run very close to mbt at 100% wgdc, and power was not lost with the same timing curve and the stock tip. I think that is a very good indicator the stock tip is sufficient for K04 power.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble Here are the two logs. The baseline log (206) was taken on a cooler day (65F ambient). The TIH log (213) was taken on a warmer day (78F ambient). IATs were > 1-2 degrees off between the runs.

That will really affect things. Take another log with the TIH at the same ambient as the baseline and report back

Originally Posted by phate I think simply moving away from the stock filter housing to an after market option is sufficient. You can test this two ways: 1) power output at a specific boost pressure. IAT/BAT needs to remain pretty consistent 2) Run 100% WGDC with a bad ass fuel, tune each to mbt, and watch power output. IAT/BAT must remain fairly consistent here as well. Notice I did not say "look at differences in airflow". MAF is not a good indicator of gain/loss between two different hard parts set ups. Virtual Dyno is not likely sufficient for this testing. My tune was more like the second method It was tuned and run very close to mbt at 100% wgdc, and power was not lost with the same timing curve and the stock tip. I think that is a very good indicator the stock tip is sufficient for K04 power.

Adding flow parts should increase airflow. Timing is a separate issue but what I want to see is the turbo being able to draw in a larger air mass when I put on a flow part. To do so I keep IAT/BAT the same and make sure the MAF is calibrated in the upper RPM region where I can run 95% WGDC. Keeping these variables constant you can see whether you added any more headroom with flow parts.

[phate]

Adding flow parts doesn't necessarily add flow. It's like taking a 1" pipe and welding a 3" pipe to the end of it. 1" pipe is the restriction. The Turbo inlet/compressor wheel is TINY compared to any tip/tih id.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by phate Adding flow parts doesn't necessarily add flow. It's like taking a 1" pipe and welding a 3" pipe to the end of it. 1" pipe is the restriction. The Turbo inlet/compressor wheel is TINY compared to any tip/tih id.

With some parts yes it doesn't and this is why I mentioned the testing method above.

While the compressor opening is tiny, the pressure drop across any pipe in front of it will shift the pressure ratio of the compressor up. Taking a 2 foot long 1 inch diameter pipe and replacing it with a 2 foot long 3 inch diameter pipe will cause less pressure drop across that part of the system. This is why larger intakes help.

Small diameter piping before the compressors means it will have to work at a higher pressure ratio which will mean less efficiency and it will have to be driven faster by the turbine which also means more backpressure.

So the idea is to have the least pressure drop before and after the compressor. This means really larger diameter piping (as large as possible), smooth bends, well flowing filter and IC.

[TRex]

correct me if im wrong

but arent we making the assumption that the k04 can generate enough flow to "fill up" the large diameter intakes

i mean you could have a trickle of water running through a 3 ft id pipe....going to a 5 ft id pipe wont change anything for that flow unless the potential is there


i guess what is the limiting intake size on the k04? 3", 4", 5" ?

or does it not matter what the flow is because you will always have gains due to the pressure drop?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by TRex correct me if im wrong but arent we making the assumption that the k04 can generate enough flow to "fill up" the large diameter intakes i mean you could have a trickle of water running through a 3 ft id pipe....going to a 5 ft id pipe wont change anything for that flow unless the potential is there i guess what is the limiting intake size on the k04? 3", 4", 5" ? or does it not matter what the flow is because you will always have gains due to the pressure drop?

Water and gas are not the same since gas (air) is compressible and expandable and water isn't. So air will fill the entire pipe. Any time you pull air through a pipe, there is friction against the pipe walls. The flow rate, pipe diameter, and pipe length are related to the pressure drop across that pipe. The least pressure drop the better.

The equation for major pressure drop is:

Friction coefficient of pipe wall * (length of pipe/diameter of pipe) * 0.5 * Fluid Density * Fluid Velocity^2

So what can we control:

1. pipe material - choose something with a low friction coefficient and unfortunately silicone is probably not as good as smooth plastic or steel

2. pipe length

3. pipe diameter

2 and 3 have the same magnitude of effect. Shortening the pipe by half will have the same effect on pressure drop as doubling its diameter.

HOWEVER as you can see the velocity is a squared term which means it has a larger effect.

Velocity = volumetric flow rate / cross sectional area

Cross sectional area = pi * radius of pipe^2.

So if we re-write the equation above for pressure loss including the velocity formula and knowing the diameter = 2* radius

pressure drop = (0.25*pi^2*friction*density*flow rate^2)/pipe radius^5

So as you can see, pipe radius (which is 1/2 of diameter) has a huge impact on pressure drop.

To not get into too much more detail regarding Reynolds number, going from a 2.5 inch pipe to a 3 inch pipe and keeping everything else the same decreases pressure drop by around 2.5 times! Going from a 1.5 inch diameter pipe to a 3 inch diameter pipe decreases pressure drop by ~32 times

[phate]

What's the actual pressure drop of the stock tip, though? What is it with an after market piece?

[rfinkle2]

Necking the pipe down @ the turbo inlet seems like it would have an effect on velocity as well.

It just seems wacky to me to have the tip reduce right @ the inlet. I'm not as well versed in engineering / mathematics as you (Lex and Phate), but I always had the best spool on my k04 with a 2.5" aluminum pipe.

BTW: Wacky is the best engineering term I could come up with.

[mazdaspeeding]

I bought a used steel RPMC Tip for $40. I definitely felt a smoother more linear spool and pull when going WOT. After looking at the plastic stocker where it necks down to like 1.5 inches for that elbow it just makes sense that a mandrel bent continuous diameter pipe would provide a smoother, less turbulent flow of air to the compressor wheel.

As mentioned above this is worth around $50 not $180 plus shipping/taxes.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by phate What's the actual pressure drop of the stock tip, though? What is it with an after market piece?

I'd need a pressure sensor right at the tip of the turbo - something I haven't done and don't have plans on doing in the near future due to time constraints.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Lex I'd need a pressure sensor right at the tip of the turbo - something I haven't done and don't have plans on doing in the near future due to time constraints.

I can do this pretty easily on the other 6. The battery has been relocated (easy access), and I can ramp in boost as quickly as possible with the built engine

Once I get the eth tune ironed out, we can see the difference with a maxed out K04. I have a stock tip and a metal inlet (cork sport) I can test with.

If anyone has a 3" tip they would be willing to lend, I can test it as well.

[Lex]

Just place a pressure sensor right in front of the turbo compressor and don't worry about bringing boost in fast, just measure the pressure at maximum flow (from 5500 RPM to redline) and compare it to ambient pressure. Measure this in Kpa.

Also remember that things like the air filter will have a significant effect so try and use the same filter.

[3Gee Tee]

That would be an excellent experiment.

This may have already been answered before but would the material (aluminum vs silicon) of the SRI/TIP affect the IATs?

[TiGraySpeed6]

It certainly could, but remember we're not too deeply concerned with IAT's since we're heating the air anyway. More important is the cooling efficiency of your IC.

BAT's > IAT's

Not discounting colder denser is better, but I'm happier to have cold air blowing over my intercooler than hitting the intake.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by 3Gee Tee That would be an excellent experiment. This may have already been answered before but would the material (aluminum vs silicon) of the SRI/TIP affect the IATs?

Yes look at my formula above.

[himurax13]

Originally Posted by dale_gribble I say 25% more pshhhhh sound is worth about $25-$35 USD.

With the Corksport TIH, it was more like 100% more pshhh sound. With the CP-E TIH and CAI, my friends were like WTF? I thought you had a turbo.

[3Gee Tee]

Yeah, aluminum piping will always carry sound better than silicon.

[TRex]

Originally Posted by 3Gee Tee That would be an excellent experiment. This may have already been answered before but would the material (aluminum vs silicon) of the SRI/TIP affect the IATs?

hint hint - friction coefficient



so lex....ideally...if we some how stick a 3 inch MAF directly onto the turbo that would be the most ideal setup?



how would being that close to the turbo effect the MAF? i would think the heat out put would cause issues for the MAF....would it become an issue if you could create a hypothetical setup like that?


im starting to think the most directly feasible setup would be blow through maf, and just a filter directly onto the turbo....im thinking crazy buy what if you made like just a little screen made of filter material and stuck it right over the compressor inlet? that gets rid of the intake completely which you dont need since you have transitioned to blow through

[TiGraySpeed6]

At that point it would be easier to just go blow-thru and hang a filter off the turbo....

[TRex]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 At that point it would be easier to just go blow-thru and hang a filter off the turbo....

haha i ninja'd you Ti

that is exactly what im thinking would be the best set up based on the talk here

[SuperTrooper169]

Originally Posted by theurgy Not to mention when I ended up installing my Cobb TIH, I had found that my stock one was not holding up to the turbo correctly and had become loose. This is apparently a common problem with the plastic unit. I can't comment on it's effectiveness when properly installed but for me I was glad to have it out, despite that fact that I didn't see a notable difference in power.

Exact same experience for me, my stock plastic TIP was kind of crimped and not completely on the turbo inlet. I was just glad to see there was an issue back there and be able to fix it.

I really only wanted an aftermarket TIP for the sound increase. I didn't buy it expecting to see any real noticable power increases, but due to the previously mentioned problem just correcting that made a big difference in performance.