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 Old 05-23-2009, 06:48 PM   #1
 
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Default Robbie Update

We had a good day at P3 Performance with Robbie's car. We have been chasing leaks (boost, exhaust, oil) for some time and finally beat all of the gremlins into submission so that I could spend some quality time with his car on the dyno. I did 34 pulls today and he made 345/380 on our Mustang Dyno at 27 psi and ~11.5 afr. Robbie was there and has a video to post up tonight hopefully. Here are the plots. All tuning was done on the Standback.


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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:00 PM   #2
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hmm seems a little low even for a MD. what happened between now and the college park show?
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:01 PM   #3
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thanks for the update, 345/380 on a mustang ain't too bad...
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:05 PM   #4
 
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it looks like 380 to me but maybe im looking at it wrong??
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:08 PM   #5
 
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My bad. It's 380 whp and 345 ft-lbs.
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:14 PM   #6
 
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27 lbs, holy god, seems kinda low for that psi. A good number anyways though. Nice job
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:20 PM   #7
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Yea, you can tell that by the volume of air that turbo is pushing at 27 psi, we definitely arent getting the proper fuel and air mixture in to make more power. Were still struggling to hit an easy 400hp on this car.
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:25 PM   #8
 
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We think we're hitting restrictions in the IC piping and intake mani. We're working on that. This is just an update.
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:41 PM   #9
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The restrictions are far greater then external upgrades. The fuel system needs to be addressed if you want to make true power that his turbo can provide. IC piping and Manifolds just help later on. If you look at other cars running his turbo, their power is almost double before they need to worry about larger IC piping or manifolds.
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:48 PM   #10
 
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You're not correct about the fuel system. I'm pulling 8% with the Standback from 5K to redline and we're still buried in the 11s. There is plenty of fuel in the car with an upgraded hpfp.

One other note to consider is the low redline on this car. It's hard to compare to evos, etc when our revlimiter hits at 6700ish.
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:53 PM   #11
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If you did cams on the car, p/p of the heads, you could easily make power to 7K. That still isnt going to fix the 400hp issue. Its fuel and lots of it. Turbo spinning to 7000 RPM isnt the problem here. Its proper air to fuel management deep in the engine. You owning a direct inject 335i should be able to see this.

Theres a lack of volumetric fuel entering the combustion chamber.
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 Old 05-23-2009, 07:58 PM   #12
 
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not following. 11.5 afr at redline pulling fuel with zero knock. I actually have dynos of the car before leaning it out where I was literally drowning the engine in fuel. The afr measured in the 8s - that's silly, I know but nevertheless, leaning it out brought it us into the realm of making power. I'm planning to see what kind of power we can make at 12+.

The VWs can make power with DI. We can too. There is plenty of fuel.
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 Old 05-23-2009, 08:13 PM   #13
 
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Originally Posted by dadasracecar View Post
not following. 11.5 afr at redline pulling fuel with zero knock. I actually have dynos of the car before leaning it out where I was literally drowning the engine in fuel. The afr measured in the 8s - that's silly, I know but nevertheless, leaning it out brought it us into the realm of making power. I'm planning to see what kind of power we can make at 12+.

The VWs can make power with DI. We can too. There is plenty of fuel.
then tell me why your at 27 freaking psi on a gt30r and cant even hit 400whp?

Something is not right here, 27psi should be over 500whp not at 380whp mustang or not

btw get this car to a track, 380whp on that dyno in an ms3 should be able to trap 120+ if not more
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 Old 05-23-2009, 08:24 PM   #14
 
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Fellas, we're breaking new ground here and it takes time. I spent ALL DAY on the car b/c I don't want to hurt anything. Notice where peak power is made. How many other speeds do you know of making peak power above 6K? Everything is new and untested. We're experimenting and learning. Of course we want big numbers but we have to be cautious and careful and make sure we eliminate the issues and understand the things holding us back so we can make informed decisions.
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 Old 05-23-2009, 08:49 PM   #15
 
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Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
If you did cams on the car, p/p of the heads, you could easily make power to 7K. That still isnt going to fix the 400hp issue. Its fuel and lots of it. Turbo spinning to 7000 RPM isnt the problem here. Its proper air to fuel management deep in the engine. You owning a direct inject 335i should be able to see this.

Theres a lack of volumetric fuel entering the combustion chamber.
Cams have been installed and tested and made no more power with a pretty decent grind on them. I'll tell you now they were done at PandL on a friend of mines car who has a shit load of partson his car and they saw nothing with them.
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 Old 05-23-2009, 09:57 PM   #16
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This car is a painin the fucking ass to make power.They got over 8grand and cant make 400.On any other car it would be over 400hp.But u guys r trying hard....
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 Old 05-23-2009, 10:26 PM   #17
 
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+1 on need a less restrictive throttle body / intake mani / head. With our relatively low redline + big slower spooling turbo it really shuts down your party.

While your peak power is past 6K, your powerband sucks. Look at Robbies average HP and TRQ and compare it the Cherryspeeds on a stock turbo, 20 HP difference, and almost no TRQ
difference..

For pushing 10 more PSI is really shows how restrictive the previously mentioned items are.

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 Old 05-24-2009, 05:10 AM   #18
 
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I agree but we're not done with this setup.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 05:50 AM   #19
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well thats about 430whp or even more on a dynojet.... agreed?!?!
may i respectfully ask what you were making at 21psi on the mustang? what were the gains between the two with that raised boost?

theres been some concern that raising boost doesnt make power on our cars after a certain point.... and this goes to show that maybe thats not completely true. maybe it isnt the gains that wed hope... but there does seem to be gains nonetheless.

thanks for the update p3.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 06:21 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by palerider View Post
well thats about 430whp or even more on a dynojet.... agreed?!?!
may i respectfully ask what you were making at 21psi on the mustang? what were the gains between the two with that raised boost?

theres been some concern that raising boost doesnt make power on our cars after a certain point.... and this goes to show that maybe thats not completely true. maybe it isnt the gains that wed hope... but there does seem to be gains nonetheless.

thanks for the update p3.
I think that is the second dotted graph on the first dyno sheet.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 06:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by quickspeed6 View Post
I think that is the second dotted graph on the first dyno sheet.
at 21 psi it was making 308whp? what does that baseline represent? is it the basline on the gt3071? obviously the curve is much different, it appears that it is a smaller quicker spooling turbo.

i meant... which was the baseline for the bw setup, that made 409 at college park?
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 Old 05-24-2009, 07:49 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by redrocketz View Post
Cams have been installed and tested and made no more power with a pretty decent grind on them. I'll tell you now they were done at PandL on a friend of mines car who has a shit load of partson his car and they saw nothing with them.
Which again, proves my theory Jeff. Its fuel man, but everyone wants to argue me on this. This isnt my first pony show building cars. Just because a car has a steady acceptible AFr, doed not mean theres plenty of fuel to support the power levels you are trying to reach.

I can easily remember a time when people thought 24# injectors on a mustang was good and dandy... I went to 30, then later 42, making gobbs more power with each increase in injector size. Yes, people began scratching their heads.

You guys at P3 can tune the shit out of this ECU and pull fuel... You're spinning your wheels and wasting time tuning this ECU for a 11.5 AFR. Add a secondary fuel system if P3 wants to break new ground and i think even you guys would be surprised at the results the car gives back.

This ECU does not want to give up the fuel dump window... So, you need to force additional fuel into the combustion chamber by secondary fuel injector means. This has been done for years and has plenty of proof of working. Go research the VW/Audi community for proof of their latest findings of adding fuel.

No need to invent a wheel that has already been invented.

no turbo of this size, should be struggling to make 400hp. A mazda 3 with this turbo would be 500+ hp by now.

Dump some damn fuel into the cylinders and show me a dyno then. You would be surprised at how much tuning will get you there.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 07:51 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by JumpingJackson View Post
+1 on need a less restrictive throttle body / intake mani / head. With our relatively low redline + big slower spooling turbo it really shuts down your party.

While your peak power is past 6K, your powerband sucks. Look at Robbies average HP and TRQ and compare it the Cherryspeeds on a stock turbo, 20 HP difference, and almost no TRQ
difference..

For pushing 10 more PSI is really shows how restrictive the previously mentioned items are.
LOL, ok.. so you want to add a 3 to 3.5 inch IC setup and a manifold in hopes to relieve a restriction that does not yet exist for this turbo? Fuel.. thats your answer to the restriction and ill eat crow for you to prove me wrong that the IC and Manifold is the problem here.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 07:53 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
The restrictions are far greater then external upgrades. The fuel system needs to be addressed if you want to make true power that his turbo can provide. IC piping and Manifolds just help later on. If you look at other cars running his turbo, their power is almost double before they need to worry about larger IC piping or manifolds.
Double? 760whp.
I agree there is more power to be had but I was wondering if you could elaborate. I have not done a ton of research yet, but haven't come accross an engine that develops greater than around 500whp with this turbo.
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Originally Posted by Cherryspeed View Post
Double? 760whp.
I agree there is more power to be had but I was wondering if you could elaborate. I have not done a ton of research yet, but haven't come accross an engine that develops greater than around 500whp with this turbo.
No prob, look below:

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 Old 05-24-2009, 07:57 AM   #26
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thatds a 2.0 FSI VW with a secondary fuel system which costs $550...

This car is about par on what Robbie's setup is, less the fuel system:

APR Stage 3 kit w/ USP 3076r turbo, 44mm externally gated
APR Front Mount Intercooler
APR High-pressure fuel pump
USP Turbo-back exhaust
Southbend Stage 5 Track Clutch
Peloquin LSD
Forge DV

USP Race Transmission rebuild
USP Stage 3 auxiliary Fuel System
USP throttle body pipe
93 octane - 352whp 325wtq

109 octane 605whp 503wtq
1/4 Mile - 11.01 @ 131.79
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 Old 05-24-2009, 08:01 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
The restrictions are far greater then external upgrades. The fuel system needs to be addressed if you want to make true power that his turbo can provide. IC piping and Manifolds just help later on. If you look at other cars running his turbo, their power is almost double before they need to worry about larger IC piping or manifolds.
Did you just make that up? How are you going to sit here and tell Dada how to tune the car when he's made more power than anyone else in the world with Robbie's car, and well, you've just theorized stuff.

Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
The restrictions are far greater then external upgrades. The fuel system needs to be addressed if you want to make true power that his turbo can provide.
Based on what, a hunch? Why don't you post up some data that we can discuss instead of making these claims. Then maybe we can have a worthwhile discussion, no?

Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
IC piping and Manifolds just help later on. If you look at other cars running his turbo, their power is almost double before they need to worry about larger IC piping or manifolds.
Do you not realize how generalized and just wrong that statement is? Robbie's car is using 2.25" intercooler piping. If you calculate the Mach number considering how much air he's flowing, the airflow is approaching Mach 0.5, and as I'm sure you know friction is a function of velocity. The airflow rate is well beyond what the system was designed for and is likely causing a considerable restriction. But then again, let's just throw science out the window and do what everyone else does. I like that idea.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 08:06 AM   #28
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PROVE ME WRONG before quoting me... for a company who is supposed to be a direct injection specialist, i would expect that you would be doing a hell of a lot more research then i am.

You can tinker with your tuning device all you like... YOU NEED FUEL to make power... The fuel you guys are claiming to pull to "tune" this car at a 11.5 AFR isnt doing dick shit to make power. Proof is in the dyno. Whoosh made the same power without the wonder tuning, so explain that one?

Before knocking my theory, TRY IT. If you dont, someone else will.. I know its already being started, so you can be last to the party if you like.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 08:32 AM   #29
 
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Randy, thanks. Apparently our dyno reads exceedingly low even for a Mustang. cp-e's 2.0T Genesis made 160s while Edmund's dyno a 2.0T Genesis on a Mustang made in the 190s.

With all due respect Kevin, it seems the more likely issue is the IC piping and other breathing restrictions. We don't see knock, high egts, a glowing mani, or anything that would indicate that we're running lean. Occams razor indicates that we should concentrate on the simplest explanation and that at this point is breathing restrictions. There is just ample fueling available at this level.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 09:12 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
PROVE ME WRONG before quoting me... for a company who is supposed to be a direct injection specialist, i would expect that you would be doing a hell of a lot more research then i am.

You can tinker with your tuning device all you like... YOU NEED FUEL to make power... The fuel you guys are claiming to pull to "tune" this car at a 11.5 AFR isnt doing dick shit to make power. Proof is in the dyno. Whoosh made the same power without the wonder tuning, so explain that one?

Before knocking my theory, TRY IT. If you dont, someone else will.. I know its already being started, so you can be last to the party if you like.

I think that's the point: You're wrong. The dyno proves you wrong. The AFR proves you wrong. I have osciiliscope data that proves you wrong. You sound just like PTP when he said, "It's fact until someone proves me wrong." That's not how science works, which is maybe why you've contributed nothing to this discussion, and haven't for a long time. How much horsepower have you made tuning these cars Kevin?

How about you elaborate on this special research that you're doing. We're pushing the platform and are publically posting about it. Why aren't you? How about we have an enlightened discussion about fueling and the "Fueling problem deep in the motor???," you speak of? Why don't you teach us something?

For YEARS you've been telling us that the Standback sucks, we don't know our stuff, and that our products would be obsolete when ATR came out. Yet we keep pushing the envelope and proving you wrong. How long do I need to trust you and wait for your predictions to come true exactly? Maybe it's time you listen, or post something of substance that isn't based on anecdotal evidence or your asinine theories. I'm all ears.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 09:21 AM   #31
 
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wow this is turning into a shit flinging match. i aint a mod but are we still on topic. thanks dada for the proffessionalism. i enjoyed this thread but its getting side tracked. wow there are good points from both sides but i wanna see some hard info. the dyno tells a story but i am too new to di to understand. its a start and thanks cp-e and dada and cherry for your continued efforts to move forward. hell just ignore me but keep this updated dada as you move forward.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 09:28 AM   #32
 
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"Relatively unique is the choice to use 2.25” aluminum piping with our intercooler kit. Although 2.5” piping is much more common in the aftermarket, it is NOT ideal for a street driven SPEED3. This is because the diameter of the intercooler piping should be based upon how much air the engine will pump, and not the “Bigger is better” adage. Obviously the more air your engine will flow, the larger the diameter pipe you will need. However, a 2.25” pipe is good for over 450hp, and anything larger for anything less then about 500hp will just create turbo lag. We must stay strong and resist the temptation to believe that bigger is always better!"
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 Old 05-24-2009, 09:30 AM   #33
 
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lol my as of whhilst rofl.haha
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 Old 05-24-2009, 09:31 AM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by MZRDISI4 View Post
"Relatively unique is the choice to use 2.25” aluminum piping with our intercooler kit. Although 2.5” piping is much more common in the aftermarket, it is NOT ideal for a street driven SPEED3. This is because the diameter of the intercooler piping should be based upon how much air the engine will pump, and not the “Bigger is better” adage. Obviously the more air your engine will flow, the larger the diameter pipe you will need. However, a 2.25” pipe is good for over 450hp, and anything larger for anything less then about 500hp will just create turbo lag. We must stay strong and resist the temptation to believe that bigger is always better!"


well 450 HP is about 405 WHP on a FWD car, so their claims are true MZRDISI4, because they are obviously making 405 WHP
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 Old 05-24-2009, 09:34 AM   #35
 
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Originally Posted by JumpingJackson View Post
well 450 HP is about 405 WHP on a FWD car, so their claims are true MZRDISI4, because they are obviously making 405 WHP
I was just quoting it, however, it says over not at.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 10:20 AM   #36
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Ok, im wrong...

So you're theory is larger diameter IC tubing and a manifold, will reap you benefits in the end? Add more stellar tuning with that ingredient and you unlock the mazdaspeed power? We await the results...

Robbies car has been dragged through the ringer and people are getting tired of the pussy footing approaches being taken. Ignoring a $1000 fuel upgrade is about a bonehead move as boosting his turbo at 30 psi scratching your head at a 1 hp gain, 30 degree increase in BAT and yanking timing, just to maintain a wonderful 11.5 afr.


The Mazda is a great bolt on car. Its not the platform to run down built Evo's and Scoobies. You need to invest some serious R&D to get this car going and i know of one shop who can pull it off, if its even feasible. i guarantee they will be running a secondary fuel system in their testing. Im just stunned at the notion that you guys are ignoring this whole "theory" on extra fuel being needed.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 11:18 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
Ok, im wrong...

So you're theory is larger diameter IC tubing and a manifold, will reap you benefits in the end? Add more stellar tuning with that ingredient and you unlock the mazdaspeed power? We await the results...

Robbies car has been dragged through the ringer and people are getting tired of the pussy footing approaches being taken. Ignoring a $1000 fuel upgrade is about a bonehead move as boosting his turbo at 30 psi scratching your head at a 1 hp gain, 30 degree increase in BAT and yanking timing, just to maintain a wonderful 11.5 afr.


The Mazda is a great bolt on car. Its not the platform to run down built Evo's and Scoobies. You need to invest some serious R&D to get this car going and i know of one shop who can pull it off, if its even feasible. i guarantee they will be running a secondary fuel system in their testing. Im just stunned at the notion that you guys are ignoring this whole "theory" on extra fuel being needed.

Well we are a business and we are exploring the depth of "DIRECT INJECTION" hell we might can throw nitrous on there and gain This much HP and we can throw METH on there and gain this much Power and we can put this and that on there and gain this much HP or race gas or whatever.

What is going on is we are going to see really how far the DI will go. Once this is done it might be feasable to get a different fuel set up. When you have those that are saying "THE FUEL SYSTEM CAN'T HANDLE THIS" with no proof i for one want to have some proof of THIS OR THAT NOT WORKING. You say just spend 1000 to get a PI set up.. well what if this platform can generate enough power to make that 600+ and you take that 1000 and spend it in other well needed places.

NOOOOOO other car to date has gotten this far EVEN the NA which should be easier due to PI. We still have room to play. This is research and development as far as i am concerned. It might be slow to you but informative to others beginner and vets of the game. Hell if we were trying to GET A NUMBER then we can skip all the BS and go for that number. The 400hp number was a nation wide set goal not just ours. Finding out if the fuel system was a nation wide set goal not ours.

How much more R&R do you need??? We are at a relm where we are try to be as carefull as we can be insted of introducing some other set up that MIGHT be more confusing to the masses to work with and that much more expensive.

Also on this graph that you posted has one of thing that was mentioned in this thread. One was higher powerband and also it was running not 27 but 33 psi!!!!
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 Old 05-24-2009, 11:56 AM   #38
 
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Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
thatds a 2.0 FSI VW with a secondary fuel system which costs $550...

This car is about par on what Robbie's setup is, less the fuel system:

APR Stage 3 kit w/ USP 3076r turbo, 44mm externally gated
APR Front Mount Intercooler
APR High-pressure fuel pump
USP Turbo-back exhaust
Southbend Stage 5 Track Clutch
Peloquin LSD
Forge DV

USP Race Transmission rebuild
USP Stage 3 auxiliary Fuel System
USP throttle body pipe
93 octane - 352whp 325wtq

109 octane 605whp 503wtq
1/4 Mile - 11.01 @ 131.79
I'm not sure I understand the point of this dyno. It made 352whp on 93 octane and 605whp on 109 race gas? I'm pretty sure P3 isn't running race gas and 352 < 380. I'm not saying you aren't right Hal, just that this isn't supporting your argument very well.
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 Old 05-24-2009, 12:19 PM   #39
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clearly something is wrong here. im making the same amount of TQ as u guys are (read SAME as in 337 vs 345 on a stock turbo) and im making the same HP at the same RPM as you guys. im fully bolted to the brim and your turbo is nearly twice the size of mine. i have honestly never seen a broader power curve on any dyno sheet then mine. lets also not forget mine was also done on a MD and if u wanna play the numbers game and add 15% then u have 330/390 on a dynojet.



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 Old 05-24-2009, 12:59 PM   #40
 
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I think i got you beat on powerband broadness super.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-dyno1-001.jpg

And your cheating using corrected numbers.

Last edited by JumpingJackson; 05-24-2009 at 01:43 PM.
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