Why does your motor blow thread, look inside.

[ptperformance]

I am going to start off by saying, take this for what its worth. I do not want to have Laloosh in here making claims of this or that or anyone else for that matter. This is for information that I have collected, nothing else. More or less this should be something that makes you go, hmmmmm.

Why do our motors blow-up all the time. Light mods, heavy mods, running lean, running rich, running perfect. Lord who knows. Well I hope I can shed some light on this, but... the fix is going to be vague. Now before you flame me for making your "fix" work or not work we did this testing for "US", not you. We plan on making motors, cyl heads, part to sell. We are here to make a profit and it cost money to test, tear down, pull apart, and do it all again. I don't ask you to work for free, so please don't ask me to. Fair enough?

What we have found out:

The pistons are getting crazy hot. This heat transfers into the piston, the piston transfers into the piston pin. Pin gets to hot, expands and bang it sizes the piston to the pin or worse to the rod. This will cause the head of the piston to crack or the rod to bend then break. I do feel that these motors can take the power, just not the heat. I have seen 4 different piston pins that have sings of seizing with gall marks to back up those claims.

How to fix this? Proper pin to rod clearance (race specs) or cut down on the EGT's and get the heat out of the motor. One will take pulling the motor apart to get the rods machined to fit the pin better or we have seen WI working wonders for keeping the temps down. There is a possibility that the pins from the factory are crap, we have sent 2 sets down to get checked for hardness and both came back OK. This doesn't mean that there are not bad sets out there. Again, just speculation and since Jon had a piston come apart.... well what do you think?

I also feel that all the knock counts you guys are getting is the piston has already galled the pin somewhere. This would trip the knock sensor and you could be running on borrowed time (this is only me guessing at this point). I can not give you guys a 100% yes this is the problem until those that have high knock counts tear into there motor.

Now if you take the time to get the pins fit properly for the heat that gets generated with the DI motor you have only put a band aid on the problem. The next thing your going to have to address is the combustion chamber in the cylinder head. We have found that the design sucks. It generates great emissions (damn near zero) but builds heat like nothing I have ever seen. There are hot spots in the combustion chamber that are causing the piston tops to heat up and then transfer the heat into the pins causing the galling and then the motors pop. We have a fix that has been tested and proven to work, I will be getting picture up of what we are doing to fix this problem. Please give me time to work the final last bugs out of this.

So, solutions for keeping the motor pop worries away.

WI, WI, WI, (we are a Labonte dealer so check out our GB here over the weekend). This is going to be a must for a simple solution. But this is only going to be good up to 350 to 370 WHP or 350 WTQ, after that your on your own.

Built motor, this should take care of all the problems if the motor is built correctly. If not, then your going to see failures in the piston heads with pin failures all over the place. All our built motors will have the proper specs in them to keep this from happening. These solutions should be good up to 420 WHP or 400 WTQ. If you were to add ceramic to the piston heads, this will go a long way in keeping the heat out of the piston pins.

Re-designed cly head. I feel that this design should take care of 90% of the blown motors that we have seen. It kills the EGT's by 400 degrees and has yet to cause a failure to the stock bottom end that we are running and we have pushed it way past the point where the last motor failed at. It gets rid of the horrible emissions design of the cyl head and makes it more performance oriented. Again, I will have pictures but the actual date I do not have at this time.

A built motor with WI, is good. A built motor with the head work and proper specs for the motor is even better. Add WI and you should be golden. Now only if we could add more fuel to the mix..... I am working on that next.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask them. Do not come in here being an ass telling me that I am such. I will delete your posts and inform admin of such, I have spent the time to find the failure. I have spent the money. I have what I think is the best fix so far, which I will be sharing with you in pictures here very soon, after we get our motors built up with these specs. Ask me the questions and I will do my best to answer them.


UDATED INFORMATION FOR THE LOWER END ISSUES, WHEW THERE IS A LOT OF WORK IN GETTING THIS FIGURED OUT!!!

Ok, after all the motor work we have been looking at we found something that caught our eye... the BS assembly. We have found 2 BS assemblys that seem to be locked up or "sticky". I have not torn them apart but here is what I think is happening.

Our motor is completely aluminum, this allows for a lot of twist, and movment. Well the BS assembly is all cast steel, which doesn't take well to twist or movment. As the higher TQ levels start to move the block around a good bit we are starting to see the BS assembly potentialy stick or hang up for a minute, well the would direct all the load into the crank gear. The crank gear is a press fit only to the crank and deppending on temp difference between them or material difference that could cause the gear to "move". Thus driving the gear into cly 3 connecting rod at the crank (see pictures for how close the #3 rod sits to the crank throw where the gear sits).

Now most of this is speculation due to the BS assembly being completely garbage after a motor blows. We took our stock BS assembly out of storage to find it was a little sticky in one point of the rotation, this could be a poor design or a bad unit... its not known at this time.

Lets think about this for a moment... how many BS assembly's in the car world have caused similar problems like this? I can think of several and all of them are after you raise the power levels up over stock. Why?, simple.. blame the engineers that built them.

A BS assembly should never be in a performance application and especially in one where you have take the performace of the car up and over the stock HP and TQ levels. This can only end bad for the motor. Next, you have to think about how many motor have blown with the BS assembly removed from the motor (I could not find one motor that has blown that had the BS assembly removed from the car), not many if any at all. There may not be that many that have removed them, so that results on that may still be out waiting for the results. I think that the forged motors are not going to see as much of an issue with this due to the heat being where it belongs and not getting put into the motor or its parts as a whole. This is just speculation at this point but I feel very strong about this, only time will tell if I am correct.

So, what does this mean. Well, we should have all caught on a long time ago about the BS set up. You need to remove it, just like they did on the the DSM's, the SRT4's, the Honda's, the Tibron's, ect ect ect. I wish I had a kit ready to sell you guys but I decided to make a how to for this. Its very easy and if you feel the need to remove the gear like I did (see picture below) its very easy and can be done with a dremel. I will get the how to up here in just a bit.

Thanks from John at PTPerformance.

[itzl0l]

awesome info man

[JimmyMac]

I can't remember, but isn't the motor designed to run 5w20? Good info, I was figuring on some lube problem with the wrist pins causing the rods to bend. Heat expansion is a good explanation too. I'll have to check my pins when I pull the motor apart, hopefully soon. Do they make aftermarket ceramic coated pins?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by JimmyMac I can't remember, but isn't the motor designed to run 5w20? Good info, I was figuring on some lube problem with the wrist pins causing the rods to bend. Heat expansion is a good explanation too. I'll have to check my pins when I pull the motor apart, hopefully soon. Do they make aftermarket ceramic coated pins?

Dry film the pins or get the tool steel upgrade when you buy pistons. These will not stick or gall like the "performance pins" that come standard with your pistons.

I would have to say that the 5w20 should be ran in every motor to keep problems like this at bay as well but I don't have any proof to back it up. Still good advise to follow.

Ceramic the deck of the piston, this should help with keeping the heat inside the chamber and not in the hard parts of the motor. If you were to do the cyl head combustion chamber as well.... I wouldn't stop you from doing this .

Let us know what you find when you pull your motor down for inspection, thanks.

[Lex]

This sounds like a very reasonable explanation for the failures. That and pins/pistons being machined our of spec adding to the seizure problem. Prolonged time in boost certainly doesn't help this issue.

How much of a drop in combustion temps and/or EGTs have you seen with water injection?

[Darksun280]

The 5w20 part is going to be ruff. I smoked like no other on 5w20 when jiffy lube accidentally put it in my car. Was fine for months and since my new exhaust on sunday 5w30 smokes bad too. Switched to 5w40 syn yesterday and haven't smoked yet fpr the day. Not trying to take the thread off topic it's just unknown if 5w40 is going to screw me over trying to avoid another problem.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by Lex This sounds like a very reasonable explanation for the failures. That and pins/pistons being machined our of spec adding to the seizure problem. Prolonged time in boost certainly doesn't help this issue. How much of a drop in combustion temps and/or EGTs have you seen with water injection?

my egts dropped a good 200 degrees. I was all up in 1800+ back in the day when I was a noob and running 25 psi with just an intake, TP. I gotta monitor mine again I never stay with monitoring it cause I had no idea if that was bad or not lol.

[Speedy3]

For your blown engine theory, I think you are on to something with the heat, but not the wrist pins. The heat will encourage detonation and pre-ignition. I believe it is the weakening of the metals from detonation, then finally pre-ignition from the slow CL to OL transition, quick turbo spool up, hot spots from the HUGE carbon deposits and slow fuel reaction time.

Also, How could the rubbing of the pins cause the ECU to detect knock? The ECU is looking for frequencies WAY above any generated by the engine rotation (50-250 hz at 3000 RPMs). The resonant frequencies of the engine cavity are in the 6-12k hz range and nothing that I have analyzed can produce those frequencies.

Anyways, it's good to see you SO into analyzing this car. I know you will find the exact answer soon.

[kingpin748]

Originally Posted by ptperformance I also feel that all the knock counts you guys are getting is the piston has already galled the pin somewhere. This would trip the knock sensor and you could be running on borrowed time (this is only me guessing at this point). I can not give you guys a 100% yes this is the problem until those that have high knock counts tear into there motor.

People are getting knock on cars with 400km on them. Seems like that should take more time.

[oskinosmee]

I think it sounds reasonable. But like Me and others have been saying for almost 8 months WI FTW!!!!!!

[ms3jake]

Will I need WI and a built motor to be safe if only power mods are a full TBE and SRI only or are these mild mods not enough to cause said problems?

[06Speed6]

These are designed to be lean burn engines, so I can only imagine how much heat they generate. I already had plans to ceramic coat the tops of the intake valves, the entire exhaust valve, the piston tops, and the combustion chamber on the heads. Those plans will definitely be concrete plans.

I had suspected heat may play a part in all this because it does make detonation very hard to control, and I have always wondered how a DI system which sprays fuel at near TDC could have any detonation at all.

Expansion of the piston pin, why didn't I think of that lol

The pin wasn't Jons problem though, but it was 100% heat related. Even if it was the ring gap, there is no way a file fit ring in a non enduro race engine should be seeing high enough temps for as long as it would take to pop that beefy ring land off of a forged piston. Jons failure raised alot of questions about our heat management.

[MZRDISI4]

I could have sworn Mazda said it was not a lean burning engine.

[06Speed6]

Rich engines dont detonate.

I bet it is somewhere in the transition from closed loop to open loop that it goes lean, it may be that in closed loop it is running alot leaner than we think it is. If that is the case then all it would take would be a slow transition to open loop when you get on the throttle for stuff to start breaking.

Ive been saying that nearly since I bought this car almost 2 years ago.

[ztuner]

I have only 1 question - how / where did you measure egts ?

Harry

[boosted3]

so to solve this issue a cheaper way can u just through meth on the car wouldnt that cool the car down.I havent seen a car wiht meth blow yet..Im a noob at this was just thinking

[Lymerock]

could some of the heat related issues be due to poor oiling at start up?
would something like a dry sump keep things in check. IMO then it may not be so necessary to run such a light weight oil.

[bova]

i am only running 5w40 from here on out regardless of what is said about 5w20 which is just way to light imho.

[Addikted To Boost]

this seems like a very logical explanation for the engines popping. I wish i hadnt sold my meth injection when i traded my cobalt in for my speed... dammit, oh well ill just buy another kit its really cheap compared to a new motor and install labor.

Can somebody link me to where i can learn what the difference is between open and closed loop please?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Lex This sounds like a very reasonable explanation for the failures. That and pins/pistons being machined our of spec adding to the seizure problem. Prolonged time in boost certainly doesn't help this issue. How much of a drop in combustion temps and/or EGTs have you seen with water injection?

We have seen a consistant 200 degree drop. Now this is with the kits we are going to offer, but I would have to say that the same would happen with any good kit that has the proper location for the nossle. This is with no increase in boost and zero changes to the tune. We have found it very easy to add 3 to 4 psi of boost pressure after WI gets installed on the car, we are then back up to or close to the starting EGT's.

It also deppends on what mix your running with your WI system (water meth mix). We have seen the higher meth mixes not drop the EGT's as much. Keep this in mind when yous start mixing your own or changing to a different brand of WI fluid.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 The 5w20 part is going to be ruff. I smoked like no other on 5w20 when jiffy lube accidentally put it in my car. Was fine for months and since my new exhaust on sunday 5w30 smokes bad too. Switched to 5w40 syn yesterday and haven't smoked yet fpr the day. Not trying to take the thread off topic it's just unknown if 5w40 is going to screw me over trying to avoid another problem.

This is a point in which I wish I could help you. I would say to get a catch can installed and then run the lighter oil. The catch cans have seemed to cut our burning at idle way down if not all the way gone.

There is to much speculation on the oil at this time. Could it be that the oil change caused the problem ??? who knows. What we do know is that by switching over to the higher weight cuts the smoke out the back down. Take this for what its worth.

[bova]

catch can does not stop smoking. the thinner oil will leak past the turbo seals and 5w20 is not even the recommended oil, 5w30 is. 5w40 FTW with no smoke.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Speedy3 For your blown engine theory, I think you are on to something with the heat, but not the wrist pins. The heat will encourage detonation and pre-ignition. I believe it is the weakening of the metals from detonation, then finally pre-ignition from the slow CL to OL transition, quick turbo spool up, hot spots from the HUGE carbon deposits and slow fuel reaction time. Also, How could the rubbing of the pins cause the ECU to detect knock? The ECU is looking for frequencies WAY above any generated by the engine rotation (50-250 hz at 3000 RPMs). The resonant frequencies of the engine cavity are in the 6-12k hz range and nothing that I have analyzed can produce those frequencies. Anyways, it's good to see you SO into analyzing this car. I know you will find the exact answer soon.

We have seen the detonation and the pre-ignitions signs on the the heads of the pistons, this is why we came out with our first fix by machining the cly head (confirmed fix). The metals do get weak over time and we have seen the heat tracking on the tops of forged pistons (rainbow of colors on the head of the forged piston). The transition time is not playing a part in the hot spots, is the design of the head and piston that is causing that issue. Carbon build up is not that much of a problem with the pistons, it is however a huge problem with the runners in the head, get WI to fix this problem.

I don't think the knock is comming from rotation, I think it is either excessive spec opening or the pin sticks and then "snaps" to release past the gall mark. That should trigger a 18 to 24 hz range signal. That would depend on engine speed as well. I think the better option is the pins "slop" and when the pistons reach TDC and trassition from push to pull on the piston pin is causing the knock. You would not hear this knock when under heavy load because the piston is being forced down by the expanding gasses. This would only cause knock under light load due to the expanding gasses not being as great when under low load applications. Again, just therory on this but the pins I have seen with the pistons all galled up would indicate exessive gap/clearance between them.

[Lex]

Now, although I can agree with the heat theory, I must also point out that Mazda has not just built a motor and thrown it out the door to its customers. When running in stock tune and mode, the motor should be reliable. Believe me (I work in the industry) that a lot of load based testing and cycling happens before anything is released as a completed and validated design.

I would say that a lot of the engines that have popped have had a manufacturing flaw as well. Perhaps the tolerances were off - this is something that is easier to "miss" than it is to miss an inherent design flaw. Heat only makes these manufacturing flaws that much more prone to destroying the engine. We have only seen a handful of blown engines - but there are many more out there running happily.

Of course that modding puts that much more stress on the assembly and if there was a flaw, it will certainly make itself known.

Other good tips to keep combustion temperatures down and oiling up to snuff:

- Change the oil every 3k miles with a proper synthetic (Redline etc)
- Use a colder plug
- Make sure your cooling system is up to snuff (no low coolant)
- Don't beat on the car when heatsoaked
- Keep the intake tract clean by either servicing the vehicle or running WI

I don't think that the closed/open loop transition is of great concern - there just isn't enough cylinder pressure to generate a high amount of heat.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by kingpin748 People are getting knock on cars with 400km on them. Seems like that should take more time.

Right out of the factory they could have been machined incorrectly. I am wondering if they (Mazda) could have put standard 3 pins in our cars instead of the speed version? I think there is only .5mm difference between them (don't quote me on this because I have no idea what the standard 3 pin size is). This could be something to look at, hell I could check the stock MS3 pin diameter if someone has a regular 3 pin laying around.

Again, this is just something to think about. I know there is an issue with the pins and pistons with our motors when you start to turn up the boost. Start asking for more and the motor will show you where you are making your mistakes.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by oskinosmee I think it sounds reasonable. But like Me and others have been saying for almost 8 months WI FTW!!!!!!

I wish I had jumped on that band wagon. It took me a while and with the last 4 months of checking this or running that.... I would have to say that WI for the speed is going to be a "MUST" if you plan on turning up the boost.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by ptperformance We have seen the detonation and the pre-ignitions signs on the the heads of the pistons, this is why we came out with our first fix by machining the cly head (confirmed fix). The metals do get weak over time and we have seen the heat tracking on the tops of forged pistons (rainbow of colors on the head of the forged piston). The transition time is not playing a part in the hot spots, is the design of the head and piston that is causing that issue. Carbon build up is not that much of a problem with the pistons, it is however a huge problem with the runners in the head, get WI to fix this problem. I don't think the knock is comming from rotation, I think it is either excessive spec opening or the pin sticks and then "snaps" to release past the gall mark. That should trigger a 18 to 24 hz range signal. That would depend on engine speed as well. I think the better option is the pins "slop" and when the pistons reach TDC and trassition from push to pull on the piston pin is causing the knock. You would not hear this knock when under heavy load because the piston is being forced down by the expanding gasses. This would only cause knock under light load due to the expanding gasses not being as great when under low load applications. Again, just therory on this but the pins I have seen with the pistons all galled up would indicate exessive gap/clearance between them.

Is it excessive clearance that is the issue, or not enough? I would think heat played a larger role is the clearance was too small.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by ztuner I have only 1 question - how / where did you measure egts ? Harry

Pre turbo, not aft. We also did pre and aft turbo pressure readings. Very interesting to find out that the stock turbo runs at damn near 2.3 to 2.4 pressure ratio. A good clip and port work to the turbine housing might add a good amount of protection to the turbo.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by ms3jake Will I need WI and a built motor to be safe if only power mods are a full TBE and SRI only or are these mild mods not enough to cause said problems?

No, WI would be a good insurance policy. Do not tune for the WI on the car, just use it to protect you from detonation and excessive EGT's. I would have to say that they are not enough to cause any problems but why chance your built motor over a $300 WI kit? Cheap compaired to what you spent to get a motor built.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Rich engines dont detonate. I bet it is somewhere in the transition from closed loop to open loop that it goes lean, it may be that in closed loop it is running alot leaner than we think it is. If that is the case then all it would take would be a slow transition to open loop when you get on the throttle for stuff to start breaking. Ive been saying that nearly since I bought this car almost 2 years ago.

The transition is not the problem (not that we can see). With a properly built motor the knock we were getting is all but gone. Before we were seeing 5 to 12 counts (all over the place) when making throttle inputs from off throttle to boosted loads it really became a problem. I really have to say that I feel it has something to do with the motor clearances. We have even went so far as to pressurize the oiling system and check the oil squirters to make sure the bottoms of the pistons are getting the proper cooling, they are all working very well. Now how well they work at lower speeds that is still TBD. Windage tray seems to help with the knock issue as well, but I am not ready to talk about what we have found with that part installed.... not yet anyways.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Rich engines dont detonate.

I forgot to comment on this. Rich or not, DI motors work on a different principal then convention injection. Temp swings and piston heads are going to become an issue. Not only that the the point of injection and the cly swirl plays a huge part in this. This is what happens when you build a motor for emissions (like Mazda did) and ask it to perform. The other DI motors on the market have a very different design to them to promote performance. These will be the changes that we have planned for our cly heads, I promise that we will have pictures up of the differences, I just have no idea how soon its going to be.

Originally Posted by boosted3 so to solve this issue a cheaper way can u just through meth on the car wouldnt that cool the car down.I havent seen a car wiht meth blow yet..Im a noob at this was just thinking

Yes, not a noob question to ask. Meth or WI will help this issue a great deal.

Originally Posted by Lymerock could some of the heat related issues be due to poor oiling at start up? would something like a dry sump keep things in check. IMO then it may not be so necessary to run such a light weight oil.

I do not think its a start up issue, if you were worried about it an oil accumulator would be a better option for start up pre-oiling. I will try to take a look at this but I don't think this is the issue.

Originally Posted by bova80 i am only running 5w40 from here on out regardless of what is said about 5w20 which is just way to light imho.

I agree with you, and I feel that the Mazda engineers would not have made it that critical of a part to keep the motor safe. Again I feel that the oil is not the problem but I can not say for 100% that its not. Just keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by Addikted To Boost this seems like a very logical explanation for the engines popping. I wish i hadnt sold my meth injection when i traded my cobalt in for my speed... dammit, oh well ill just buy another kit its really cheap compared to a new motor and install labor. Can somebody link me to where i can learn what the difference is between open and closed loop please?

Yes it is and keep an eye open for out WI GB coming this weekend.

Google the open loop and closed loop operations. There is a ton of info on the internet about it.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bova80 catch can does not stop smoking. the thinner oil will leak past the turbo seals and 5w20 is not even the recommended oil, 5w30 is. 5w40 FTW with no smoke.

The catch can will stop the oil collection in your intake (this will help with cutting down on knock). I have yet to see or confirm that the oil is leaking past the turbo seals. Of the 20 + turbos that we have done or bought only 4 to 5 have had leaking seals. I do think that EGT's or crank case pressure might be playing a part with this. This is a whole different topic that I don't want to get into in this thread. Yes the thicker oil does seem to stop the oil burning, but 20w + will not stop the leak past a turbo oil seal. Once they start leaking there is no stopping the leak.

[SharkDiver]

My car smoke alot even after a CC installed..I do get alot of oil in the cc tho so it is keeping oil out of the intake.Im getting oil past the turbo seals so switching to 5W40 seems to have helped.It looks like I may have to get some WI kit sometime soon Im guessing.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Lex Now, although I can agree with the heat theory, I must also point out that Mazda has not just built a motor and thrown it out the door to its customers. When running in stock tune and mode, the motor should be reliable. Believe me (I work in the industry) that a lot of load based testing and cycling happens before anything is released as a completed and validated design. I would say that a lot of the engines that have popped have had a manufacturing flaw as well. Perhaps the tolerances were off - this is something that is easier to "miss" than it is to miss an inherent design flaw. Heat only makes these manufacturing flaws that much more prone to destroying the engine. We have only seen a handful of blown engines - but there are many more out there running happily. Of course that modding puts that much more stress on the assembly and if there was a flaw, it will certainly make itself known. Other good tips to keep combustion temperatures down and oiling up to snuff: - Change the oil every 3k miles with a proper synthetic (Redline etc) - Use a colder plug - Make sure your cooling system is up to snuff (no low coolant) - Don't beat on the car when heatsoaked - Keep the intake tract clean by either servicing the vehicle or running WI I don't think that the closed/open loop transition is of great concern - there just isn't enough cylinder pressure to generate a high amount of heat.

I agree with you, I am sure that they did testing in enviro room and pushed the limits of the stock turbo. The flaw is what I am getting at with my thread, what is causing the flaw to show up on some and not others? Is there a way to correct this with out a rebuild? I would have to say its safe to say that many of the aftermarket hard parts for this motor were built off what Mazda specs were. This could end up being a problem with built motors as well.

How many of those happy motors have upped the boost? How many are we not hearing about because they are not "online"? Now don't get me wrong I am not on some bash against what you are saying (trust me with your background you need your input), but we are going to have to think outside the box a little bit, would that be a fair thing to say?

That is a great list of things to folllow, I would have to say that 90% of us do that, the other 10% could be the failures we have seen. Who Knows?

[gtlaw]

I know this is a stupid question being I already sort of know the answer, but would there be a possibility of running meth, and still be able to keep the warranty ? if the engine blew once mazda tore into it shit would be way too clean, they would know whats up, and void you right?

[bf360]

Thanks for taking the time to find these things out, i agree with you on a lot of thing
This motor is defintely strong enough to take 350whp daily with wi, look at tizis car he is right around that and running fine, no one has really gone past that yet to see if the motor can take more, 400whp is probably possible also
I would like to see more when you start getting prices for a head that you mentioned also

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Lex Is it excessive clearance that is the issue, or not enough? I would think heat played a larger role is the clearance was too small.

I have seen both sides of this problem, but I would have to say that the ones that were off were because of wear (excessive wear) leading me to believe that the parts were to close specification wise at initial build. I only have 5 sets of pistons (numbers 6 and 7 are on the way) to look at right now. I have additional therorys (sp) as well but want to confirm them before I talk to much about them. Here is one I will share.

I think that the BS is directing the oil squirter spray away from the bottom of piston #2. I feel that there is a directional splash that causes the oil stream from the squiter to spray at the piston wall and not at the bottom of the piston. Thus leading #2 to premature failure. I have also tested the running of cly 1 and 2 together causing higher pressure ratios in #2 cly (tested and confimred) Thus causing the excessive heat build up in cly #2. Combine all these problems together and you can see why cly 2 is the problem cly. The oil thing is still getting tested with BSD kits and windage tray. I just have to figure out a way to get bore scope into the motor rotating assembly (not sure how I am going to do with with a $1000 bore scope. The correct equipment is over $15,000 to do the testing). I am working on trying to figure this whole problem out.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by SharkDiver My car smoke alot even after a CC installed..I do get alot of oil in the cc tho so it is keeping oil out of the intake.Im getting oil past the turbo seals so switching to 5W40 seems to have helped.It looks like I may have to get some WI kit sometime soon Im guessing.

I think there are more that say its helped then not. Changing the oil over is not a bad idea if it fixes a problem. If you don't have the problem then I would keep with what the MFG recommends, for now anyways.

Originally Posted by gtlaw I know this is a stupid question being I already sort of know the answer, but would there be a possibility of running meth, and still be able to keep the warranty ? if the engine blew once mazda tore into it shit would be way too clean, they would know whats up, and void you right?

I don't think they would look that deep into it. But, if your going to play you have to be ready to pay. That is my motto and I will still take the car to Mazda if the motor blow, there will just be a case of beer in the trunk for the tech and sevice writer when I take my modded car down to them. It never hurts to try and being honest is way better then trying to "sneak" one by them.

Originally Posted by bf360 Thanks for taking the time to find these things out, i agree with you on a lot of thing This motor is defintely strong enough to take 350whp daily with wi, look at tizis car he is right around that and running fine, no one has really gone past that yet to see if the motor can take more, 400whp is probably possible also I would like to see more when you start getting prices for a head that you mentioned also

Not a problem.

To be honest with you, I think that the motor can take 400 WHP if you were to do the cly head work that we are talking about. A few have come very close to 380 or 390 WHP with the stock head and motor, this is by taking the time to put the proper supporting mods on the car to keep things ubber safe (like Whoosh's car).

I want to say soon on the cly head, but I want to be 110% certain that we have the problems licked before we start posting pictures. I have another stock head laying here that is going under the knife for the 3rd test unit. I will post up pictures of that when we get it all done with before and after pictures. Thanks.

[redrocketz]

the rod that goes through the side of the block on DISI engines is the same one that does it on regular factory 2.3 engines there is a known oiling issue on that cylinder but Mazda doesn't seem to give two shits about it. There are at any given time I've noticed 3 cars at the dealer needing new engines. I've said this a few times now but no one listens what do I know.

[mrlilguy157]

Originally Posted by ptperformance How to fix this? Proper pin to rod clearance (race specs) or cut down on the EGT's and get the heat out of the motor. This doesn't mean that there are not bad sets out there. Again, just speculation and since Jon had a piston come apart.... well what do you think?

Originally Posted by ptperformance Built motor, this should take care of all the problems if the motor is built correctly. If not, then your going to see failures in the piston heads with pin failures all over the place. All our built motors will have the proper specs in them to keep this from happening. These solutions should be good up to 420 WHP or 400 WTQ. If you were to add ceramic to the piston heads, this will go a long way in keeping the heat out of the piston pins.

These two statements completely contradict themselves.