Besides BT and Built Motor - Is there any other power mods left?
 

I don't want to get into the built motor / BT area because this is my daily driver, and while I see lots of people putting down big numbers, I also see tons of problems with built motors and BT's and I need to keep my daily driver reliable.

I currently have:

1. Corksport Intake
2. Corksport TIP
3. UR Catless DP
4. UR Catless Test Pipe
5. ETS 3.25" Intercooler
6. Custom single exit exhaust
7. Turbosmart BPV
8. KMD Internals
9. EVO X Wheels with Nitto NT05 245/40/18 Tires
10. Pro tune at 22 PSI

I'm putting down 342WHP and 387 Torque with current setup.

Are there any other POWER mods I can do without getting into the built engine / BT area?

BTW, I have no E85 in my area so increasing timing is not much of an option for me.

I see your avatar but..

How is EVO X Wheels with Nitto NT05 245/40/18 Tires a POWER mod?

Man you're putting down 342hp and 387tq on K04 without E85/meth? Not trying to knock but that seems awfully high, even for 22psi.

Maybe see if an ex-mani can get you any extra flow?

exh mani
pp intake mani
meth kit

Before I got those tires and rims I used to spin 1-3rd.... not really a power mod, but I put down a lot more traction now and don't really spin in 2nd and 3rd anymore... it has really improved my acceleration. So I kinda do consider it a power mod even though technically it's not.

I thought the manifold was manly for the BT setups, different flanges and such... does that actually provide enough flow to make a power increase on the stock K04? Or does the the stock manifold provide enough flow for the K04?

Thanks Capt.... have not considered meth yet

+58

That must have been the happiest dyno in the world.

Those are some inflated numbers.

Go to gym and lose some weight?

Rockets? Worked on mythbusters.

Fapping before you race also works.

Yea I haven't been here long but that's the highest HP I've seen anyone claim from a K04.
Got a datalog we can plug into Virtual Dyno? Im just curious.

Yea those numbers a off a bit without meth or 85, even then. Maybe with intake mani, exmani, meth and 85. On k04

I agree with Dawson get an exhaust mani that's good power right there then port your intake mani and get Meth n get tuned for it and you can pull 30+ HP off Meth alone. Then do NOZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ JK BOUT NOT

Can I claim higher?

Thanks for the tips guys, gonna look into the mani's and meth to get some extra horsies.

As far as the dyno numbers, it was on a dynojet, around 45 degrees outside if I remember correctly. Not gonna debate the numbers, been through this debate before and it just turns into an argument. Just because someone has similar mods and has lower numbers don't really mean anything. Different dynos read differently.

My tune is also different from 99% of the guys on here. I have a Piasini tune from Joe at DP tune. He is employed by Mazda to tune their SCCA race cars and really knows his shit, and fine tuned my car quite nicely. So it's kinda like comparing apples to oranges in the tuning department. I diddnt throw those numbers out there to brag or anything so let's please not let this discussion turn into who's dyno numbers are higher. All that matters is we have fast cars that we enjoy :)

I was just looking for more mod options, and you guys have been very helpful. Thank you very much for the input... looks like my next steps will be manni and meth and then I'll take it back down to Joe and get my tune adjusted again.

You guys are awesome, thanks MSF!

stop pussyfooting around and go bt.

medium turbo? BNR3?

Absolutely! I'll make me feel better about my own power goals on the K04. haha

I claim 350/460 on my K04.

EDIT:
With fucking nitrous. I don't care who your tuner is, the K04 doesn't flow 340+ WHP of air (without chemical assistance).

if i can get 310-315WHP w/out BT upgrade while i finish my truck, ill be a happy camper.:popworm:

LOL @ Dyno numbers.:bsflag:

We have big turbos, meth and manifolds..... just sayin

Hmmm...
 

...+1 on what the msf.org esteemed gearheads have said and maybe a...

...flux capacitor... :wink:

I don't see ported intake manifold on your list of items. Why not get an upgraded stock turbo with ported exhaust housing and some ceramic? That would be a huge bump on power (more than an exhaust manifold would give you) and it would give Joe some additional air flow to work with.

Joe knows how to tune guys... hands down the best tuner I have ever had the privilege to talk with.

That is a very good mod list, talk with Joe and ask him what he recommends. I know we are doing some custom work for him right now so you might want to as about these "items". I don't want to share what we are doing for him because I don't know if he wants the details released yet.

Do you still have your balance shafts in place? Remove those and it would free up some rotating mass.

Really?

How about we get him to do a datalog then post a virtual dyno first before we start calling people out.

Joe over at DP Tune knows his shit. He has done more testing in this platform than anyone I know. Bucker, you are a competent tuner but without knowing the details of how Joe tunes. It would be unfair to attack members for the results that they are making without all the details. Maybe they are correcting for elevation, temp, ect during the dyno pulls. Just something to think about.

Corrections would do it. The turbo does not flow that much air, it is literally the restriction... you know this, John. I get angry when people spout bullshit as fact and then refuse to back it in any way.

Without alcohol, he isn't making over 320whp. Without nitrous he isn't over 340whp. Reworked K04 of any flavor + ported IM + Exhaust Manifold would give you some good gains, OP.

I cannot go into the details about what Joe is doing with his tuning, but he can get crazy results. He is forced to run a restrictor in his class, yet still makes crazy power.

Lol at people suggesting a vd log to prove dyno numbers

Sent from my LG-MS690 using Tapatalk

Correct, but how much power would it make at 24 psi at 5200 RPM with 28 degrees of timing with proper flame propagation.

Bucker, two years ago people said that 300 WHP was impossible on the stock turbo. A year ago 320 was impossible. Today... I don't see why 340 wouldn't be doable with the tuning tables that have been unlocked and the experience that Joe has. I get equally angry when people have a closed mind about progression with a platform that already has a limited knowledge base.

Now, don't take this as an attack on you. I know Joe personally, I know what he is capable of and as a personal associate of his... I trust that his cars do what he claims. This is just my opinion and we know that its not worth much, but there it is!

I know, I know, but it would at least be something.

I am all about opening up more potential if it is there. Just as importantly, if it IS there why is it not HERE? Why would one magical person be capable of producing significantly more flow from an already over-taxed turbocharger? This is a forum for the exchange and sharing of technical knowledge. Thats what we do. We try something, share results, get input, and try something new.

Also, we are not talking theory here. OP claims to have made significantly more power on the stock turbo with the same methods others have used. He did not modify the turbo, he did not add any unique new parts to get magic power, he did not do anything differently other than this tune. I generally hold close to 24 PSI at 5000 RPM (it plummets after) and run much less timing than 28*, but from testing of others on the platform, that is well beyond MBT anyway. Just as importantly, there would be a fuckload of knock with no alcohol with that much boost/ timing.

Very interesting John, I'll have to have a chat with Kevin. But still very happy dyno!

Well, if someone can make more why share it? If they share it, it gets copied and you know where it goes from there.

I don't want to share to much about what Joe does, but I can tell you that flame propagation plays a huge part to his tuning. Bucker, don't take offence to this but, Joe has been tuning for years and dedicated himself to this platform. How long have you been tuning? Again, don't take offence to this but maybe he knows more about tuning than you? Just say'in.

thats some high ass motherfuckin numbers @@
are you sure its 342 or is it actually 242 lol jk.

Heres a solution for you: BNR stage 3 Water/meth injection BOOM! ;)

No offense taken, more than anything I am hoping to understand whatever concept may allow to get more from this platform. I have only been tuning cars for about 5 years and have only been on this platform a brief period of time.

You mention flame propagation but you still have thrown nothing out there. Its cool if you dont want to talk about someone elses work, but don't talk about it then. Don't allude to things then say "nevermind". It's childish and worthless to us on this forum. I appreciate the products you have produced and the breakthroughs you have made. I don't appreciate the way you try to make it sound like you are THE subject matter expert on the platform but refuse to enlighten others.

subbed. Hope we don't blow up bucker's thanks-o-meter.

I am not a liberty to explain this to you. If you want to see how flame propagation effects power, go cut a window into a cyl head, get the equipment to monitor how it effects power production, and then share it with everyone. This is what Joe did, he spent thousands of dollars doing this. I refuse to take someones hard work and make it worthless, or just give it away. If you view this as childish I am sorry, its a business decision that we have to make sometimes in order to stay a head of the competition.

Lol I love when the 'knowns' come in and talk smack to the noobs.

<popcorn>

Sorry guys, I shouldn't have posted my numbers in the first place. I made that mistake a year ago after I got my first tune by Joe with nothing but an intake and TP and got flamed to hell with everyone screaming inflated, and I defended Joe with everyone screaming liar even though I had a dyno sheet to prove it. Still, it was Liar Liar they screamed. I quit the forums for about a month after that, and I should have learned my lesson about posting my numbers but apparently nothing has changed in a year.

There are other tuning solutions out there, but most people here use the AP because they can make modifications themselves and tweak stuff.. and I understand, alot of people like that. The AP is a great product and lots of people love it.

My car was tuned with a different solution, by a guy who is paid by Mazda to tune their race cars. Just because I have made more horsepower than those who use the AP does not mean my tune is superior. Maybe Joe just has more access to the ECU than the AP, or knows some tricks you guys don't. It's also entirely possible that the Dyno local to me reads higher than normal. Either way it's irrelevant.

But again, it don't matter and all this defending and bullshit calling is pretty childish. I did not post those numbers to get everyone in a flaming war, I was trying to post the information on my car and get some advice. I don't know a thing about tuning, that's why I take my car to Joe. I can't tell you what's different about my tune than yours, and Joe does not share any info about his tuning because he doesn't want to be copied.

What I can tell you is that he knows his shit, and if you ever take a visit out to his place you will see multiple Mazdas parked there that MAZDA has provided him with free of charge for R&D. He works on these cars all the time, and not just the speeds. He has regular 3's there, and even a Mazda 2 he's been tuning. He also races them, and tunes the SCCA cars. That should tell you something, don't ya think? Out of everyone available, this is the guy Mazda chose.

Let's just squash this now, you can either believe my numbers or not, it really does not matter to me. This thread has been completely derailed.

I was simply looking for a few extra mods I could do without going into the BT / built engine area and it turned into a tuning war... really was not my intention.

Thank you to the guys who provided advice, it is very much appreciated. I will research all you have said and use that knowledge to better my own car.

For the flamers, just let it go. If you want to create your own thread debating what's possible and what's not, and which tuning solution is better then go for it. Please don't turn my thread into another warzone. This is my last post in this thread. No I will not post my dyno sheet, no I will not post a log for your virtual dyno. I tried that a year ago and even though everything was legit people still called liar liar and said I modified it.

Damn, too fast!

OP you can also do PNP to your head. I just finished mine but haven't started the car yet. Supposed to increase hp/tq a fair amount

So don't talk about it period. This is exactly the issue, John. You talk about this guys work like it is your own and toss enough out there to get interest, etc. but really don't bring much to the community (as a whole or individual). As a business, you provide lots. "We"? Are you Joe? Ok, exactly. Drive on.

OP, I am sincerely sorry for being a part of derailing your thread. As I posted earlier, more flow modifications or hit up your Mazda expert and see what he things you should do. If anyone would know, he would.

This is a community not a "Bucker Rules" forum. I will share what I feel is fair to share, after that you are just going to have to live with it.

I never implied, or acted in anyway like this was my work, I clearly gave Joe over at DP Tuning the credit for this tune. Then I took the time to explain to you how to replicate how he got his results (flame propagation). If you are to poor or un-educated to figure it out how to do this, then you are going to have to live with the fact that people can tune better than you or have access to tooling, parts, supplies that make them better tuners.

Bucker, I don't know what to tell you but what I brought to the discussion was much more than you. You simply stated that it was impossible, then I shared with people how its possible and what it takes to make power like that.

OP, I apologize for the derailing of your thread. I was very upset that Bucker was "Groaning" your posts from the start and decided that I should intervene and defend a good friend and top notch tuner in our platform.

lol @ meter

Yea...fuck bucker

interesting.

I would love to see the plot but find it EXTREMELY hard to believe any K04 on 93 could produce that power.

and the OP sounds like a troll....hell if I had only a bolted MS3 on 93 and was putting down 342 WHP I wouldn't even ask the question.

sounds like a failed attempted brag to me.

if he is making 342 congrats!

LOL @ the groan.

to roll up in here and claim 342WHP on a bolted K04 without meth and corn and no dyno plot, what did you expect?

prove us wrong. show some dyno plots...hell if its true you should be shouting from the roof tops and handing out dyno plots to everyone on the street.

Dano, Joe is not like that and his customers are quiet and conservative. Give him a call and talk with him (Joe), the guy really knows his shit and has done more with tuning the MZR engine than anyone I know.

I was referring to OP shouting from the rooftops not the tuner.

you have always provided proof of your accomplishments and I don't see why you would expect any less of OP and/or Joe. The way the original post was stated seemed to have been submitted under false pretenses. i.e. "I make 342 on magic, what do you guys think I could do to make more?"

If he's uncovered some unicorn dust he doesn't have to tell anyone where it can be had but a dyno plot and log would go along way to getting recognition and acclaim and to make the OP appear legit.

jussayin...this is MSF after all...maybe OP should go over to 247 and ask the same ?

This thread too ptp John?
The fuck?

I am with ya, I just know the tuner personally and he has made some crazy power on the stock turbo.

Let me put it this way... on a 27mm restrictor he can make close to 400 WTQ and 300 ish WHP. He has to short shift the car because the restrictor starts to pull power up top.

Now go look at how small a 27mm restrictor is, then you will get an appreciation of what he can do with tuning.

Just hit the 1/4 mile and post some slips, you should be trapping about 115mph for 340 HP.

I'm going to chime in here because I too know Joe, in fact I was at his shop today and we were talking about the very car which you are referring to. During the conversation he admitted that it was running a BNR turbo. So, not stock.

Super great guy, really knows his stuff.

Thank you for clearing that up for us! Joe is a stand up guy!

Obviously you have not read any of my posts, and just scanned this thread. The purpose of this thread was not to shout from the roof tops and hand out dyno plots of what I have achieved, my question was a simple one: What else can I do without going BT and Built Engine to gain more power? I have been humble, and ignored the flaming and nay sayers this entire thread because they have no useful information to add. I do not desire an argument.

As for the groan, you got that for stating I started this thread to brag. If you have read any of my posts you would clearly see that isnt the case. I simply stated what I had done to my car so far, and what my local dyno results showed, and I asked for advice.

I have nothing to prove to you, and really don't care if you believe the numbers or not. You can choose to believe I'm a liar, or that the dyno was off, or I have unicorn dust as you call it, or whatever other thoughts you can come up with.

What I do find funny however, is I have read many of your posts where you have provided very useful information. I respected you as a member, and admired your knowledge of this platform. It appears that you've either jumped on the trolling bandwagon, or I had you pegged wrong from the beginning.

Wait who has the bnr?

Ohrely. That's a whole different story. Which BNR. If an S3 same as gt28 and I make 370 on 93 with DO7 100% meth. Sooooo he can improve w meth and/or corn


Op misrepresented if what you say is true.




Tappin

To clarify, I'm talking about Joe's car that @HPFPUPGRADE was referring to as needing to run a restrictor plate. NOT the OP's car. Carry on...


EDIT: Didn't ask what stage BNR, sorry.

this thread has been derailed enough... I don't know why you just don't back up the claim? We know you weren't intending to brag,so what harm is done by proving the numbers?

in any event i think you've got enough info on the remaining power mods.

Ok cuz that would've cleared a lot up lol

Joe running an up graded turbo, damn him! When you see him next, let him know that I should have his "parts" ready end of next week.

I give up trying to find the truth

OP congrats on the power. Nothing you can do to make more without meth or e85.


Tappin

Great, I hope I didn't get the guy in trouble! For what it's worth, you have no reason to believe something some random stranger said on the internet over the word of Joe.

I've been researching the port polishing for intake / exhaust mannis and meth kits that you guys have been suggesting... its almost as expensive as getting a turbo kit from Edge Auto Sports. And at 22 PSI I don't think my turbo would get much benefit anyway as as you guys have said, that is the restricting point in my car at this point. Sure it would allow me to increase timing a bit, but the gains wouldnt be anywhere close to those as a bigger turbo. Just doesnt make sense when you look at it from a monetary perspective.

I think I'm just going to stick where I'm at until the car is paid off in another year and a half then jump on the big turbo bandwagon. It's not that I'm scared of going BT, I just don't have the funds to replace an engine at this point if it blows. Once the car is paid off, I can go BT, and if it blows then it blows. I won't have a car payment and should be able to make any necessary repairs.

Most likely, in another year and a half there will be better options for this car anyway. Look at how far we have come in the last year and a half. It's quite amazing when you think about it.

Thanks again to all the people who offered advice and assistance, I truly appreciate your input. It just looks like I'm at a stopping point for now until I've got her paid off. Then I'll join the rest of you trying to make the big numbers :)

The engine is probably more likely to blow with the k04 with the copious amount of torqe it makes. BT is safe and the most bang for the buck. Just because you buy BT doesn't mean you need to make 450+whp and 450+wtq. Tune conservatively and shoot for say 400 and 350wtq. Torque is where the real strain is on the engine...not power.

agreed. i would love to see the dyno sheets. why not squash the numbers argument? its only going to push the platform and get your tuner more business...

There's a reason no dyno sheet has ever been posted..

Sent from my Epic Win Avatar

except of course, PT errr HPFPUpgrade lol

Just being a turkey but add nos to that list. LOL.

I am so confused.


Zigatapatalka

I've noticed HPFPupgrade mention VVT @ least once when commenting on dyno plots, and that is one thing that e-tuners don't have the ability to tune without a load bearing dyno. Maybe Joe is able to use VVT to create some more hp (who knows to what extent).

Another confusion... Are we talking about a restrictor pill or some kind of plate? Assuming the guy is running a restrictor pill, it sounds a lot like what Phate and Glorified Bozo did with the wastegate actuator on Glorified's car and I don't think even running straight alcohol he is making those numbers.

That being said, the entire thread is misleading, maybe not by intent, but everyone assumed the car was still k04 powered, and not using a BNR.

Also 28* degrees of timing sounds ambitious to me, even on 100% alcohol.

John, I'm the first guy to welcome you back, am glad to have another source of knowledge and parts, but could you clarify some of the confusing aspects without giving away any proprietary info?

I just want to make sure that you realize that there are two different cars in this discussion. The first belonging to @drenkel and is the being subjected to ridicule because people don't believe his power claims. This car is running stock turbo according to OP.

The second car belongs to Joe and was brought into the discussion by @HPFPUPGRADE who was using it as an example of Joe's tuning prowess. This car runs a restrictor plate and an upgraded turbo.

If there was no confusion, then I apologize. If there was then I hope this helps clear some of it.

Because mystery

Ok, if this is the same Joe with DP tune in New Braunfels, TX that i have had experience with than i too with call BS and heres why. When i brought joe my car with full bolt ons (minus a downpipe) the car made 285 whp and 320 wtq, also on a dynojet. Now, you're trying to tell me the same guy tuning with the same software on the same car made a what, 60 whp difference with just a downpipe? The Joe i had experience with was a liar and a scam artist, he would not let me view my data logs or watch him tune, he made one re-flash to the car and sent me on my way. he charged me $600 for the tune and said he would give me a "military discount" so he wouldn't have to charge me tax, turns out it was just his way of keeping the sale off the books since he didn't give me a receipt. Also, when i tried to buy a fuel pump from him, he charged me the $650 before he had shipped (which is illegal btw) and any time i asked him about shipping info (New Braunfels to Houston takes 1 day) after 2 weeks he continuously dodged the question. When i offered to make the 3 hour drive to his shop and simply pick it up he refused and ignored my calls/emails from then on out. i had to have my bank track him down and refund my money. If this is not the same Joe, i apologize as i do not wish to slander anyones name, However if this is the same Joe, everyone needs to know to stay the hell away.

Is Joe John?

Is John Joe? (I want to play too).

@Voltwings
yes it's the same Joe, thanks for sharing your experience. He's offered to tune my car numerous times and I haven't gone that route because of both the expense and the suspicion that he wouldn't share what exactly he was doing. You have confirmed what I suspected. This is valuable info.

@Spilly
No. At least I don't think so. It could be an elaborate ruse. But doubtful. Hmmm.

is it safe to assume since Pseud0logik thanked this post that the Joe's are one in the same?

edit: nevermind

this thread becomes more interesting by the day.

Yup, see my last post. One and the same.

edit: nevermind x2

hum...so maybe Joe just told OP he was making 342/387 and OP had never seen the plots.

:popcorn:

Poor drenkel just wants more power without going bt or build motor.:ugh:

For the money it is going to take to do a manifold, etc. a gtx3071 is a reliable upgrade.

Once installed (properly), that turbo should be every bit (if not more) reliable than the k04.

I know he said no BT but is it the install that he @drenkel is worried about?

BT at 18-20 PSI way safer than K04 at 22.

meth is a more complicated install than a BT
switching to E85 is fairly easy as long as you stay at or below 50%.

of course a new tune required for any of the three options.

The install does kinda worry me, but I'm sure I could figure it out. I was able to do the DP install by myself... sure it took like 8 hours lol... but I got it eventually. Seems like the turbo install isnt much more involved than the DP other than unbolting the manni and a few other pieces in the same area, and changing some hoses. There's how-to's on this site too, I'm sure I'd eventually work my way through it.

It's more of a warranty issue for me. My car only has 15K miles on it.

I'm in fairly good with the service manager at my local dealer, and he's cool with what I've done so far, even let him drive it a few times :) - but he's flat out told me "I'm fine with what you have on the car now, but If I see a BT on this car I will have no choice but to deny any warranty claim"

That's what's keeping me from jumping to BT now... I don't want to lose the warranty.

IMO, if you're making as much power as you are and you can still get warranty service then you might consider thanking your super lucky stars and just enjoy the car with what you've put into it.

Honestly, I'm jealous, I have to stock out every time I go to Mazda dealer. But with 52k miles, I don't have to worry about that much longer.

I am very lucky =P

The service manager is an avid pool player, and I own the nicest pool hall in town. He loves my place and comes in at least a couple times a week. I hook him up here and there knowing one day I'll need a hook up from him as well.

Then its time for E85 IMO.

good for ~20WHP and your motor will run safer...esp in the 110* south Texas heat.

^^^^This OR...

Ask him how many games of free pool it would take in order for him to look away from the BT in your engine bay.

suggestion...?

why not ask this Joe dude what else to use?.... lol

did you do this by hand?.. or a professional machine shop?..

just askin..../

LOL... wow...

OP must be full of money and clueless...

just sayin.

how do you not know you have a BNR instead of stock?..

"oh, yeah i'll take that one...?":jester:

I think they are talking about another car with the BNR turbo, but still, it sounds like this is possible and OP has no idea. That or he has been fed a line by the guy who did the work. OP, if you are over 340whp with the K04, more parts won't net you more power anymore.

Just as importantly, I can't believe I just liked one of your posts... WTF

lol, fuck you...

thats a good deal.

lol, favor returned....

wanna fuck?

By hand. About 10 hrs just on the head. Finished it with 120 rolls.

so you shaved off some of that HUGE drop off lip and made it more rounded from the exit of the IM runner port into the head?...

something I may do when taking my motor apart and putting it back together.

I want a full head job eventually but thats after my build and a lil more money saving...

Where do you say the huge drop off was? I don't remember there bein one. I port matched and polished. Are you talkin about the IM?

Do you mean on the intake side of the head by where the valve seats? No, I left those there. I figured they were there for a reason.

lol... ok I understand...

you PnP'd the ports going into the head...

yeah, inside the head there is this uber lip that can be machined BUT i'm sure it has to be PRECISE.

you'll see and have the details in or before a years time when I do my head.

I got ya. Yeah, I decided to leave it.

I think the edge you are talkin about is on the bottom of the first photo.

@rfinkle2

Ok you guys have instilled enough doubt in me and now I'm starting to question myself on what's truth and what's not.

Rfinkle2, who over at edge do I need to talk to to get a good deal on an AP? Can u get them to PM me ?

If they don't mind hooking me up a bit on the price I'll go to a different dyno shop and do a couple pulls with current tune, then I'll do a couple pulls with the proper AP OTS tune (out of my own pocket) and post up the results from a dyno shop that is completely neutral.

@eric@edgeautosport

Can you hook this up?

Why do you have to get an AP? Just post a dyno sheet of your current tune.

Unless you did that already, and I just missed something... :shrug: