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-   Gen2 MS3 General Discussion (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f544/)
-   -   Besides BT and Built Motor - Is there any other power mods left? (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f544/besides-bt-built-motor-there-any-other-106689/)

shadesofgray19 03-04-2012 04:21 PM
I would just go to another dyno. You were probably told the bhp at crank and not whp.

Voltwings 03-04-2012 06:56 PM
Hmm... I thought the COBB could just flash over the ECU anytime, could anyone with more experience chime in on this? The AP should be able to overwrite whatever is currently on the ECU shouldn't it?[/QUOTE]

i over wrote my piasini tune when i got my AP and have probably done 20-30 re flashes since then getting me e85 and 93 maps dialed in, so no lingering issues.

Bucker 03-04-2012 07:12 PM
http://i.imgur.com/iTQK9.jpg

Stock turbo. Easiest way to make more power: Nitrous.

Wildfire 03-05-2012 02:55 PM
In for AP/Dyno results!

drenkel 03-05-2012 03:10 PM
Just sent another PM to @eric@edgeautosport so we can get the AP ordered. Results posted in a week or so... not sure how long it's gonna take me and @rfinkle2 to get everything dialed in.

Dano 03-05-2012 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucker (Post 1293402)

Stock turbo. Easiest way to make more power: Nitrous.
lol also one of the easiest ways to ZZB.

Voltwings 03-05-2012 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano (Post 1294786)
lol also one of the easiest ways to ZZB.
ZZB = zoom zoom boom?

SofaKingAwesome 03-05-2012 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drenkel (Post 1294691)
Just sent another PM to @eric@edgeautosport so we can get the AP ordered. Results posted in a week or so... not sure how long it's gonna take me and @rfinkle2 to get everything dialed in.
You'll be in good hands, Rob is a pleasure to work with. You just need to be ready for the cock shots he likes to email on the weekend. I keed.

drenkel 03-05-2012 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SofaKingAwesome (Post 1294978)
You'll be in good hands, Rob is a pleasure to work with. You just need to be ready for the cock shots he likes to email on the weekend. I keed.
We've been chatting through PM's last couple of days, he's a very intelligent guy. I don't have the slightest doubt that he's going to be awesome to work with.

drenkel 03-06-2012 10:00 PM
2 Attachment(s)
Ok... so I got the AP today... got my MAF calibrated, got some logs, and sent them over to @rfinkle2

Initial impressions... power does not come on as quick as I'm used to... I don't get that "kick" in 2nd and 3rd that I'm used to. I think this can be fixed by bringing boost on earlier and playing with the throttle.

That being said, after a single revision by Rob, the virtual dyno shows 307 WHP and 369 Torque. Not bad at all for a first revision. There's still some kinks to work out, I need to up boost more, and there is some fine tuning to be made. I bet we can pull another 20 WHP out of this tune by upping the boost back to 22 PSI like I'm used to, playing with timing, and leaning it out a little more.

Maybe Joe's tune is not the unicorn dust, maybe it's my car. I bet after me and @rfinkle2 work on this tune over the next week we can make some good numbers. I'm quite impressed with 307 WHP after the first revision.

Log, and Virtual Dyno below:

Pseud0logik 03-06-2012 10:14 PM
All that work in one day? Impressive! It took me a week just to calibrate my maf.

tapaduh

drenkel 03-07-2012 03:20 AM
Mag cal was easy as pie after reading the how to in the ecu tuning sticky. Had 0 on all my ltft within 20 mins.

p057 03-07-2012 03:58 AM
just curious why you didn't log the map you had before to compare VD graphs??

rfinkle2 03-07-2012 05:53 AM
Drenkel, if you have an old log (fom your Piasani tune), it would be great to input into VD so we can compare numbers.

I don't need the log itself if you'd like to create the VD plot.

Is your car one of these cars? http://dptune.com/dpt_016.htm

Dano 03-07-2012 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drenkel (Post 1297834)
Mag cal was easy as pie after reading the how to in the ecu tuning sticky. Had 0 on all my ltft within 20 mins.
you do know it takes miles to fill in LTFT right? Like 30-50 miles at varying MAF voltages.

so cal maf...drive 50 miles..run maf cal logs...make changes...drive 50 miles...rinse repeat.

you can speed up the process by driving with MAF vt displayed and hold your engine RPM at the various voltages to get them filled in faster.

and zero LTFT is near impossible.

Pseud0logik 03-07-2012 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano (Post 1298151)

so cal maf...drive 50 miles..run maf cal logs...make changes...drive 50 miles...rinse repeat.
This is exactly what I did, but I drove about 100 miles between revisions. Took about a week and three revisions to get to ~2.

Voltwings 03-07-2012 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfinkle2 (Post 1297900)
Drenkel, if you have an old log (fom your Piasani tune), it would be great to input into VD so we can compare numbers.

I don't need the log itself if you'd like to create the VD plot.

Is your car one of these cars? Mazda
^^ surely im not the only one who noticed those are all crank numbers, his numbers from the beginning of this thread may very well have been crank -_-

phate 03-07-2012 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltwings (Post 1298194)
^^ surely im not the only one who noticed those are all crank numbers, his numbers from the beginning of this thread may very well have been crank -_-
lol. A guess at the crank numbers, at the best :/

Dano 03-07-2012 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pseud0logik (Post 1298166)
This is exactly what I did, but I drove about 100 miles between revisions. Took about a week and three revisions to get to ~2.

exactly! using my method greatly reduces the miles required to fill in LTFT.

get on the interstate with the AP showing MAF vt. Cruise around in different gears and different RPM while holding the voltage at various locations will fill in LTFT very quickly.

walk your way up the vt range holding about every .5 to maybe .25 for a few seconds [20 maybe] and volia' your LFTF for that voltage is active. it will still change a lil more over time but I call this a "rapid prototyping" kind of maf cal for part throttle :)

I completely ignore STFT for calibration purposes...just too volatile. I will "look" at it to see if its climbing and then maybe at a % or so to the LTFT for that range but wouldn't add/subtract the entire STFT from LTFT.

drenkel 03-07-2012 02:15 PM
Ya after putting miles on the car I'm seeing ltft as much as +2 in some areas, gonna have to calibrate it again.

I tried the vdyno with Piasini logs and it said like 640 WHP lol. The dashdaq spits out multiple rows of info for the same time stamp, vdyno really doesn't like that as the numbers in some rows don't match on the same time stamp. It's really cluttered. The way the AP logs is much easier to read.

When I married my AP though, it DID save my Piasini tune. When we finally get this map worked out I'll be able to unmarry the AP and do a dyno run with the Piasini tune on the same day on the same dyno. The guy at Cobb in Austin looked at this for me and did confirm unmarrying the AP would restore the Piasini data.

Dano 03-07-2012 02:22 PM
nah...+- 2 is done IMO. any closeer and you'll just chase your tail as seasons change and you fill up at different gas stations...air filter gets dirty..etc.

I do tend to prefer a negative LTFT which puts you on the richer side at OL transition but that greatly depends on when you transition to OL and at what Maf voltage that is, and what the LTFT is at that breakpoint.

see chasing tails :)

drenkel 03-07-2012 02:24 PM
Unfortunately it's rainy here today. I got a new revision to try out, but I'm not gonna be able to get some good pulls till it dries up. Gonna drive around and check out throttle response and boost tho, and do another maf cal.

Lex 03-07-2012 03:06 PM
For quick MAF cals, use the WOT section of the previous map and scale as needed. Or, log some low load LTFTs which can fill in quickly and again scale. Then use WOT to tell you how far you are off.

You do need to be careful going WOT, but if the MAF housing is well designed it should be smooth in response and you should only need to use a global multiplier so WOT/OL is a good place to see if the cal is off.

Floridaspeed 03-07-2012 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drenkel (Post 1288257)
Sorry guys, I shouldn't have posted my numbers in the first place. I made that mistake a year ago after I got my first tune by Joe with nothing but an intake and TP and got flamed to hell with everyone screaming inflated, and I defended Joe with everyone screaming liar even though I had a dyno sheet to prove it. Still, it was Liar Liar they screamed. I quit the forums for about a month after that, and I should have learned my lesson about posting my numbers but apparently nothing has changed in a year.

There are other tuning solutions out there, but most people here use the AP because they can make modifications themselves and tweak stuff.. and I understand, alot of people like that. The AP is a great product and lots of people love it.

My car was tuned with a different solution, by a guy who is paid by Mazda to tune their race cars. Just because I have made more horsepower than those who use the AP does not mean my tune is superior. Maybe Joe just has more access to the ECU than the AP, or knows some tricks you guys don't. It's also entirely possible that the Dyno local to me reads higher than normal. Either way it's irrelevant.

But again, it don't matter and all this defending and bullshit calling is pretty childish. I did not post those numbers to get everyone in a flaming war, I was trying to post the information on my car and get some advice. I don't know a thing about tuning, that's why I take my car to Joe. I can't tell you what's different about my tune than yours, and Joe does not share any info about his tuning because he doesn't want to be copied.

What I can tell you is that he knows his shit, and if you ever take a visit out to his place you will see multiple Mazdas parked there that MAZDA has provided him with free of charge for R&D. He works on these cars all the time, and not just the speeds. He has regular 3's there, and even a Mazda 2 he's been tuning. He also races them, and tunes the SCCA cars. That should tell you something, don't ya think? Out of everyone available, this is the guy Mazda chose.

Let's just squash this now, you can either believe my numbers or not, it really does not matter to me. This thread has been completely derailed.

I was simply looking for a few extra mods I could do without going into the BT / built engine area and it turned into a tuning war... really was not my intention.

Thank you to the guys who provided advice, it is very much appreciated. I will research all you have said and use that knowledge to better my own car.

For the flamers, just let it go. If you want to create your own thread debating what's possible and what's not, and which tuning solution is better then go for it. Please don't turn my thread into another warzone. This is my last post in this thread. No I will not post my dyno sheet, no I will not post a log for your virtual dyno. I tried that a year ago and even though everything was legit people still called liar liar and said I modified it.
What I don't get is if this dude "Joe" is so good than why didn't you just ask him what else you can do to your car to make more power? Why did you ask the forums? Wouldn't he know best?

Edit: My apologies for not reading the entire thread

drenkel 03-07-2012 03:19 PM
^^^

Read the whole thread before posting man, your clueless to what's going on

drenkel 03-07-2012 05:40 PM
@rfinkle2

Testing out your version 2 revision now... the throttle definitely has an "OH SHIT" position now, about 3/4 the way down it really punches hard. Feels like it's making more power than the first revision, but that could just be the "OH SHIT" punch tricking me lol.

Part throttle driving feels like driving a N/A engine. I'm used to boosting part throttle, so the car feels slower in this aspect. I don't really build any boost at all until the pedal is pressed down a good amount. My previous tune would start to build boost at 1/4 throttle. It's like driving a completely different car.

I'm reserving opinion on the throttle response for now, it is smoother for regular stop and go driving, which I like, it just does not feel very peppy. But on the other hand, when I do mash the petal all the way to the floor I get the "OH SHIT" factor and a big grin on my face. I'm going to drive on it for a bit before I make a decision on changing the throttle response.

The roads are drying up now, I'm gonna go put a few more miles on the car and then get you some new logs on your 2nd revision. My dashdaq monitor shows everything as A-OK on the sensors, so it seems pretty safe to do some pulls. Will post up results later tonight.

Dano 03-07-2012 05:45 PM
shitty pissany tune was probably using the OE throttle mapping which is very aggressive and the Cobb maps are very linear.

fink can crank that back up if you like it that way but IMO it makes it harder to control wheelspin.

phate 03-07-2012 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano (Post 1299018)
shitty pissany tune was probably using the OE throttle mapping which is very aggressive and the Cobb maps are very linear.

fink can crank that back up if you like it that way but IMO it makes it harder to control wheelspin.
Agreed. If you (drenkel) ever get into autocross or racing in general, you will find the on/off switch is your enemy. Lots of throttle modulation before tons of power come on is ssssoooooooooo nice to have :)

drenkel 03-07-2012 07:30 PM
2 Attachment(s)
Did some more driving, only had a chance to get in 1 pull due to traffic... gonna get more logs tonight after work when no-one is on the road for the 3rd revision, but looks great so far!

After 2nd revision I'm at 324 WHP and 380 Torque

Attaching Vdyno and log.

Want to give mad props to Rob, after only 2 revisions the car is doing awesome. He's a great guy to work with, and I can't wait to see what the final numbers are.

We still need to lean it out a little more, increase boost to 22 PSI and play with timing. I bet my car hits the numbers I originally posted (If not higher) with the AP tune. Proof is in the pudding, and it looks like Joe's tune isnt the magic unicorn dust, it's my car.

Is it possible that my custom straight pipe has opened up enough flow to achieve the extra power, or is my car just a factory freak?

I truly believe me and @rfinkle2 will hit close to 350 WHP and 400 Torque when the AP tune is finished.

Bucker 03-07-2012 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drenkel (Post 1299203)
Did some more driving, only had a chance to get in 1 pull due to traffic... gonna get more logs tonight after work when no-one is on the road for the 3rd revision, but looks great so far!

After 2nd revision I'm at 324 WHP and 380 Torque

Attaching Vdyno and log.

Want to give mad props to Rob, after only 2 revisions the car is doing awesome. He's a great guy to work with, and I can't wait to see what the final numbers are.

We still need to lean it out a little more, increase boost to 22 PSI and play with timing. I bet my car hits the numbers I originally posted (If not higher) with the AP tune. Proof is in the pudding, and it looks like Joe's tune isnt the magic unicorn dust, it's my car.

Is it possible that my custom straight pipe has opened up enough flow to achieve the extra power, or is my car just a factory freak?

I truly believe me and @rfinkle2 will hit close to 350 WHP and 400 Torque when the AP tune is finished.

No.

Rob is AWESOME, I am NOT doubting his abilities 1 bit. You will not reach 350whp. You CAN break 400 ft/lb. As I have said before, the turbo is in the way.

Chimmike 03-07-2012 07:51 PM
324hp? on a bump or wheelspin? meh. not consistent.

Ziggo 03-07-2012 07:51 PM
You hit a bump in the road and have smoothing set to 1.

*edit and zooming in its a 3rd gear log..........

drenkel 03-07-2012 08:05 PM
No bumps, was a new, flat road. Repaved like 3 months ago. Let's hold judgement till the tune is finished and I get it on a real dyno :)

If the real dyno shows 340-350 WHP are you still gonna doubt? The whole purpose of this test is to provide proof, I'm doing all I can here.

There's still 3 areas we havent played with yet to ring some extra HP out. 2 more PSI of boost, leaner AFR's, and a little timing advance. I believe we are gonna do it, and when I post the real dyno sheet your just gonna have to accept that my car is a unicorn :drive:

phate 03-07-2012 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drenkel (Post 1299299)
No bumps, was a new, flat road. Repaved like 3 months ago. Let's hold judgement till the tune is finished and I get it on a real dyno :)

If the real dyno shows 340-350 WHP are you still gonna doubt? The whole purpose of this test is to provide proof, I'm doing all I can here.

There's still 3 areas we havent played with yet to ring some extra HP out. 2 more PSI of boost, leaner AFR's, and a little timing advance. I believe we are gonna do it, and when I post the real dyno sheet your just gonna have to accept that my car is a unicorn :drive:
Ho hum. You have a tiny bit of tire spin right where the graph has the power bump. Look at the log, you can see it :) It can be something as small as a crack in the road, especially if you're taking 3rd gear logs.

Ziggo 03-07-2012 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drenkel (Post 1299299)
No bumps, was a new, flat road. Repaved like 3 months ago. Let's hold judgement till the tune is finished and I get it on a real dyno :)

If the real dyno shows 340-350 WHP are you still gonna doubt? The whole purpose of this test is to provide proof, I'm doing all I can here.

There's still 3 areas we havent played with yet to ring some extra HP out. 2 more PSI of boost, leaner AFR's, and a little timing advance. I believe we are gonna do it, and when I post the real dyno sheet your just gonna have to accept that my car is a unicorn :drive:
Dude come on, are you seriously this dense? Even your tuner knows better and would never strut that graph around as proof of anything except ~275whp

Add your timing and boost in any you will be at ~300whp just like every other k04 car out there.*

*That isn't running excess oxygen in their fuel (E85) or in their air (Nitrous---->bucker)

HPFPUPGRADE 03-07-2012 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by drenkel (Post 1299299)
No bumps, was a new, flat road. Repaved like 3 months ago. Let's hold judgement till the tune is finished and I get it on a real dyno :)

If the real dyno shows 340-350 WHP are you still gonna doubt? The whole purpose of this test is to provide proof, I'm doing all I can here.

There's still 3 areas we havent played with yet to ring some extra HP out. 2 more PSI of boost, leaner AFR's, and a little timing advance. I believe we are gonna do it, and when I post the real dyno sheet your just gonna have to accept that my car is a unicorn :drive:
I saw your post, then looked down, had a good laugh. If you get your car on the dyno and it makes 340 WHP... I will fly out and hug you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggo (Post 1299341)
Dude come on, are you seriously this dense? Even your tuner knows better and would never strut that graph around as proof of anything except ~275whp

Add your timing and boost in any you will be at ~300whp just like every other k04 car out there.*

*That isn't running excess oxygen in their fuel (E85) or in their air (Nitrous---->bucker)
There is a lot at play here. Dyno's, VD, track results, ect. I can make 315 WHP easy with the stock turbo with full bolt on's. Does that mean every car can, no. I would have to say that there is one unicorn out there that can do this on the stock turbo. I never, ever say impossible because the second you do... it happens.

Look back one year ago, if anyone were to tell you that a 700 WHP MZR Speed 3 could exists would you of said "hell yea" or just laughed at them. I know I would of laughed at them, but look... we have a 700 WHP unicorn now, LOL.

drenkel 03-07-2012 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggo (Post 1299341)
Dude come on, are you seriously this dense? Even your tuner knows better and would never strut that graph around as proof of anything except ~275whp

Add your timing and boost in any you will be at ~300whp just like every other k04 car out there.*

*That isn't running excess oxygen in their fuel (E85) or in their air (Nitrous---->bucker)
The 1st revision was 307 WHP in a 4th gear log, how the hell do you figure I went to 275 in the 2nd revision?? Yes it was 3rd gear, I diddnt have enough room to do a 4th gear. That don't mean that I dropped HP with the new revision, Ziggo, you are the one being dense.

I got $100 bucks that says if I get a legit dyno that shows 340 WHP Ziggo would still find something wrong with it. Any takers?

I have confidence I'll hit that number, and have a dyno to prove it. I also have confidence that Ziggo, and at least 2 others will call liar liar. Just because you diddnt do it don't mean it can't happen.

Dano 03-07-2012 08:40 PM
Take everything else out and look at any VD graph. Any jumps in HP are not real. Please take logs in 4th gear like everyone else and set the smoothing to 2 or 3 and we can see where you are really at.

Take a look at the battle v dyno thread and you can see examples of stable graphing.


Tappin

drenkel 03-07-2012 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano (Post 1299384)
Take everything else out and look at any VD graph. Any jumps in HP are not real. Please take logs in 4th gear like everyone else and set the smoothing to 2 or 3 and we can see where you are really at.

Take a look at the battle v dyno thread and you can see examples of stable graphing.


Tappin
Will do more logs tonight after work, was too much traffic to do them today. I'll post 3 VD's, with smoothing higher, all in 4th gear for you guys late tonight, or tomorrow afternoon.

mrmonk7663 03-07-2012 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HPFPUPGRADE (Post 1299355)
If you get your car on the dyno and it makes 340 WHP... I will fly out and hug you.
LOL.
Can I have refund for rail valve I will be purchasing soon from you if I dyno 340whp :D


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