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 Old 01-07-2019, 09:38 AM   #1
 
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Default Blown turbo

Had my MPs 3 gen 2 taking to a garage today as it became very smokeywhen it heated up.car seems to still boast ok. They was no oil in the car it seems to be leaking about the turbo.the smell is strange.they say it's the turbo has blown.would this be right.i dont have a clue.any help would be nice before I get robbed for a new turbo lol
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 Old 01-07-2019, 10:39 AM   #2
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Are there any modifications to the car?

It's fairly common for the seals inside the turbo to fail, so you may well need to replace the turbo. If there was no oil in the car, you may have more serious damage as well (scored cylinders, damaged mains, damaged rod bearings, damaged pistons/ringlands, overheated/melted valves, etc.).
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 Old 01-07-2019, 10:46 AM   #3
 
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Surely if the car had no oil in it it wouldn't smoke cause it's the oil that causes the smoke.so to me I hope the engine had some in it so no damage to engine.here Hope's.thats all I need..can u repair the seals or just replace turbo.no mods.bilstein suspension only.
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 Old 01-07-2019, 12:11 PM   #4
 
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It is a common problem that came sooner when you don't let it cool down before shutting the car off. Boosting before warm up may not help either and peoples with free flow exaust or heavier mods seems to have a shorter lifespan also.

You can just replace the center cartridge (CHRA) with a jobber unit from china and keeps your hosing for few hundred bucks.
It can sometimes be rebuild but if the ring groove is very worn, it won't make a good unit and it won't be less than a new chra.

A garage may suggest a new unit from mazda for peace of mind but it would be pricey.
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 Old 01-07-2019, 07:06 PM   #5
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff23spl View Post
It is a common problem that came sooner when you don't let it cool down before shutting the car off. Boosting before warm up may not help either and peoples with free flow exaust or heavier mods seems to have a shorter lifespan also.

You can just replace the center cartridge (CHRA) with a jobber unit from china and keeps your hosing for few hundred bucks.
It can sometimes be rebuild but if the ring groove is very worn, it won't make a good unit and it won't be less than a new chra.

A garage may suggest a new unit from mazda for peace of mind but it would be pricey.
Agree with most of this, but not the "don't let it cool down before shutting off". Our cars continue to run the fan and siphon coolant through the radiator and water lines in the turbo long after the engine is turned off. We do not benefit from cool down ritual, like older turbo designs that lacked water cooling and siphoning systems.

The turbo is a K04. The seals are inherently weak and the crankcase builds excessive pressure because of a poorly designed PCV system.

Hopefully, its only a blown turbo that can be rebuilt or replaced, and not a damaged engine from running low on oil.
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 Old 01-07-2019, 08:22 PM   #6
 
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You can disagree, it is up to you but chra water cooling is not a new thing at all, i did see cars from the 90s with water cooled oem turbo. It is also written in my french mazda manual to let it cool down 30sec after severe load or climbing a hill. i expect english version is the same....

Green peoples are happy to see v6 and v8 replaced by smaller turbo engine but don't tell them you may need to let it cool down iddling in the driveway...They will go nuts.

Water and the siphon effect helps a lot vs a oil cooled, i agree with you and in most dayly driving habits, it would be enough because peoples aren't boosting in parking lot But after a wot log, i prefer to trust Mazda engineers and let it cool down for a short while. You better be too carefull than sorry...

if we had an electric water pump like some bmw, i would fully agree....(I would also be afraid that it fails but this is another story....)
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 Old 01-07-2019, 08:24 PM   #7
 
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The part of my french manual :
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 Old 01-08-2019, 06:43 AM   #8
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff23spl View Post
You can disagree, it is up to you but chra water cooling is not a new thing at all, i did see cars from the 90s with water cooled oem turbo. It is also written in my french mazda manual to let it cool down 30sec after severe load or climbing a hill. i expect english version is the same....

Green peoples are happy to see v6 and v8 replaced by smaller turbo engine but don't tell them you may need to let it cool down iddling in the driveway...They will go nuts.

Water and the siphon effect helps a lot vs a oil cooled, i agree with you and in most dayly driving habits, it would be enough because peoples aren't boosting in parking lot But after a wot log, i prefer to trust Mazda engineers and let it cool down for a short while. You better be too carefull than sorry...

if we had an electric water pump like some bmw, i would fully agree....(I would also be afraid that it fails but this is another story....)
It is not "versus". We have water and oil passages in the turbo. Keeping the fan running after shutdown is extremely effective in keeping the turbo safe.

What can kill the K04 (besides the shitty PCV system killing its seals) is letting the CHRA center shaft, which is only 5mm in diameter, get above 1500 degrees F. That usually occurs when idiots push boost way outside its compressor efficiency map, like trying to run 20 psi all the way to redline. The shaft softens in temps that high, sags, and you get metal to metal contact with the bearings.

I suppose that making a long climb up a mountain road under pedal to the metal conditions or driving at or near redline for extended time could over heat the center shaft beyond 1500 F. a cool down would help then.
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 Old 01-08-2019, 09:26 AM   #9
 
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Originally Posted by MSMS3 View Post
It is not "versus". We have water and oil passages in the turbo. Keeping the fan running after shutdown is extremely effective in keeping the turbo safe.

What can kill the K04 (besides the shitty PCV system killing its seals) is letting the CHRA center shaft, which is only 5mm in diameter, get above 1500 degrees F. That usually occurs when idiots push boost way outside its compressor efficiency map, like trying to run 20 psi all the way to redline. The shaft softens in temps that high, sags, and you get metal to metal contact with the bearings.

I suppose that making a long climb up a mountain road under pedal to the metal conditions or driving at or near redline for extended time could over heat the center shaft beyond 1500 F. a cool down would help then.
lol of course we have oil in a watercooled CHRA that help to cool a bit. The sleeve bearing wouldn't work without it. It is just a way to call them.

Many k04 start smoking so much that peoples usually replace it before the rotating assembly touch the case at high speed. Turbo explodes more often on diesel engines.

When you open a k04 to rebuild it, (one that just smoke) you can see the crooked oil on the shaft. This stuff fill the seal groove and load the seal until oil can almost flow freely around.
(A rotating wire brush isn't enough to clean it, you need to knock it off with tools.)

I can't confirm if it is because some peoples use cheap oil with a lower cooking point but my conclusion is a bit more toward the lack of cooling when oil flow stop....

Unless we check it with a pyro gage, it remain hard to know for sure...
Don't get me wrong, i'm not a fan of turbo timer and let it idle each time i park the car to have kids asking why,....I usually slow down for the last driving minutes but when i race the speed or haul the RV with the CX7, i let it cool before i stop because the turbo is constantly boosting and i don't expect the water to be enough.

At the end, it doesn't hurt to do it even if you are right...
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 Old 01-08-2019, 10:16 AM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff23spl View Post

. . .At the end, it doesn't hurt to do it even if you are right...
Agree. Never hurts, and might help.

Often people are running regular petroleum based oil in turbo engines rather than synthetic, or extend oil change intervals too long. Such oil will coke at lower temperatures than full synthetic. And, the K04 center shaft will shit the bed if you get it hotter than 1500 degrees, F. which can happen if the turbo is pushed too far. We don't have a true EGT pyro sensor, but some of our engine tuners have done pyro probe testing directly into the center housing and found that if you lean out the tune too much on the K04 and push boost too high above 5,500 rpm without really cutting back on timing advance its pretty easy to see EGT's exceed 1500 degrees.

VW/Audi users with upgraded 2.0 aftermarket turbos (K03 to K04) that purchased the original Neuspeed kit and tune had a rash of turbo failures. Neuspeed commissioned an outside engineering analysis of the failures and determined that its new tune was too aggressive and was allowing EGTs to climb above 1500 degrees F. That was softening the center shaft and causing the failures. They revised the tune to keep EGT's safer.

We have the same 5mm center shaft on our K04 variant. The Neuspeed experience is posted here in one of our "stickies." The problem is real. I can see that pushing the engine hard up a mountain or staying in the throttle for very long periods of time (like road racing track days) could raise EGT's beyond what the turbo could safely handle, especially if the engine is tuned and running above stock boost levels.

It never hurts to let the turbo cool down by keeping the engine running after a prolonged high load run. Whether it helps under any other circumstances is debatable, as our failures seem to be mostly related to the K04 seals and the poor PCV design producing more oil pressure than the seals can handle.

We are probably making the same point, approaching it from two different perspectives.
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 Old 01-08-2019, 11:14 AM   #11
 
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we can use a k03-k04 VW rebuild kit on our k04...and i read about some vw guys using our k04 parts to upgrade some smaller k series....
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 Old 01-10-2019, 05:32 PM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by Jeff23spl View Post
we can use a k03-k04 VW rebuild kit on our k04...and i read about some vw guys using our k04 parts to upgrade some smaller k series....
The VW/Audi K03/K04 has an integral exhaust manifold design. We cannot swap turbos, but I think our CHRA will interchange with the CHRA in their K04.
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