Carefully selected modifications for my stock 2012 MS3
 

Hey guys,

Thanks for the awesome forum! I have an insane amount of hours absorbing as much information as I can in this forum the last two months and I think it is time to start a thread and confirm all that I have learned and get some feedback before doing anything to my virgin MS3. :)

My MS3 (2012 genpu with 15k miles) is my daily driver and I would like to keep the car in near stock form, but would like to make a few small modifications. I plan to take the MS3 to open track days and AutoX this summer, but nothing too competitive. If I get hooked on AutoX, I will find a cheaper car to dedicate to racing.

So here is my current wish list, roughly in order:
- Cobb Access Port Tuner (least favorite modification; most risky & voids warranty (if caught), but easy performance gain and better MPG's are welcome)
- Corksport Rear Motor Mount (hoping this improves shifting and power delivery)
- SPC rear camber arms (want to reduce rear camber to 1-1.5*)
- A true and mild performance alignment
- Tires: Need help here... Continental Extreme Contact DW? See tire Q below.
- Corksport Brake Pads (seems to be the closest to OEM with less fade and a lot less dust)
- Racing brake fluid (more research needed, don't want squishy silicone)
- Stainless Steel brake lines (apparently CS pads feel squishy without these?)

So the first question is how does this list look? Any thoughts or suggestions?

Second question is about tires: I am having a hard time deciphering good and bad tires for dry and wet and for autoX/track. Most people don't have more than two tires they've ran on their MS3's, which makes sense, but makes it difficult to actually get a sense for how all the different tires compare. I was originally planning on running Direzza II Star Specs for summer and winter tires for the other half the year, but it rains too much here in the summer for the Direzza's (wet performance sounds pretty poor compared to the conti DW or an max perf. all-season). The Conti DW's are a very well rounded tire and perform great in the wet, but I am afraid to take them to the track/autoX - I don't want to ruin my DD tires (cupping comes to mind). Wearing them out fast however is perfectly fine. I know I don't need racing tires - I have a lot to learn before I would put them to good use. Does anyone have some thoughts on this?

Third and final question for the night is about the suspension alignment: My driving is very spirited, but I don't want a hyper-sensitive setup for my daily driver. I've read through several of the "toe issue" and "alignment" threads and read many more than once to get an idea what my alignment should be... How does this setup look?:

Front Toe: 0”
Front Camber: -2.5* (it is what it is without camber plates, max them out within slop and match side-to-side. Camber plates not worth it for stock suspension.)
Front Caster: 3.5* (or most possible?)

Rear Toe: 1/16” toe in (total)
Rear Camber: -1.5* (or -1.0*?) (requires camber arms)

Cross Camber: 0 (+/-0.??)
Cross Caster: 0 (+/-0.??)
Steer Ahead: 0 (+/-0.02)
Thrust Angle: 0 (+/-0.02)

My goal with the suspension is to dial it in pretty well while leaving it mostly stock. I would like to reduce understeer, but not sure how close to the edge to oversteer I want to go for a DD. I guess I would error on the side of understeer, but would like to be able to push it under certain conditions to get the rear to come around. The car still needs to be fairly calm on the road and freeway, and yet not too terrible for the track/autoX. I think the above suspension setup will get me close to this, but this is purely based on reading forums for weeks.

Cheers!

Wait, you don't have bypass valve on your list... You sure you read enough? :D

The alignment specs seem good for a daily driver with some aggressive feel and handling. Might take a slight toll on the tires on the inside edge from the front camber, but that can be worked out with good rotation.

I think you have a good path setup to learn to autoX your car; let the car tell you what you need. I really like your path; you acknowledge that the car has plenty of power stock for tracking (which it does), and you are looking into brakes and setup to get a baseline going. I can't speak to tires on MS3. My buddy with his MS3 really likes the Nitto Neogens; you can squish a 235/40 on your stock rims.

If you're planning to AutoX, just remember that most mods will bump you from stock class into a modified class. If you're not planning to be ultra-competitive this may not be an issue for you.

Haha, clearly not enough reading. ;) Thanks for confirming the setup and my upgrade path. :cool: That sounds like what I am aiming for. From what I've read, the typical camber settings on the stock MS3 are pretty severe, close to 2* front and rear. Assuming my car is about the same, tire wear may improve.

This car certainly has plenty of power and my focus is to be able to use every bit of it. Those tires are one of a few common favorites on here. I think I will just need to talk to some locals and see what people prefer here in the NW and just pick something.

Thank you for letting me know. I found a table online to quickly determine what mods are allowed in each class. It looks like most of my mods will bump me out of stock. ECU Flashing, *motor mounts, *Camber plates/camber kits are not allowed in stock class. The stainless steel brake lines might not be allowed either.
(*it appears some RMM and Camber arm upgrades are allowed, just not sure which ones... Crarrs posted he was in stock class with a CP-E RMM and Camber arms mods in the "Why is MSF (in general) so uninterested in racing" thread, post #52 )

I don't plan to be ultra competitive (in this car anyway), but it would be nice to not race in a class of cars which are much faster. Hmm...

AP is least favorite mod? lol

Yeah, having a way to flash a reliable tune and monitor you engine's health is for the birds.

You clearly have a lot more reading to do.

BTW, there's no such thing as a "void warranty"

I am a huge fan of leaving things close to stock, so when I say least favorite, I am speaking about my feelings of making a significant change to the car... To most people on this forum, an AP is probably the least significant change you can make to a car, especially since you can always reflash the stock tune with just a few button presses. It's just perspective. The AP is the most significant modification in my list, so for me, it makes me the least comfortable.

The AP is on my list for a reason - being able to monitor and run a better map than stock are some big improvements. It's unanimously one of the best mods you can do to the car - and I agree. It just pushes me a little out of my comfort zone.

Mazda is pretty relaxed with the warranty and allows most aspects of the car to be modified without affecting the warranty. If you have a warranty claim and the modification had no affect on the issue, Mazda will cover it. A flashed ECU is one of the few things that Mazda does not tolerate. If something goes wrong with the engine and for some reason the car goes to Mazda without reflashing to stock (not that I would ever purposely do that), any repair related to the engine problem will be on my dime and not covered under warranty.

I dont think they will cover anything that gets damaged from autox either. Mideswell not do that either then huh

Riiiight.

Your totally willing to abuse the shit out of your DD on an Auto-X course, but somehow flashing a tune is what makes you the most nervous?

Sound logic is sound. :ugh2:

Haha, fair enough. I never claimed I was logical. ;)
AutoX in this car for me is just for fun, and I'll probably only do it a few times a year. I won't beat the complete shit out of the car (not really trying to compete - just having fun), but certainly won't do anything good for the car. :thinking:

If I really get into racing, it will most likely be rallyX in a old, high mile beater Subaru. I've gone to a few local rallyX events with a friend who races in them and really enjoyed it.

I know where your coming from, and I'm glad to see you can take some criticism with a grain of salt.

I guess what I'm trying to say is:

The autosports world is pay to play. If you wanna have fun, you better be willing to break some shit.

I totally agree. Things are bound to break and shit happens. My conservative mods and conservative autoX in this DD MS3 are all in hopes of lowering risk and potential damage, and yet still have some fun and legally drive the car the way it was meant to be driven. :)

If I feel the need to drive harder and faster, I will resort to a beater I can afford to break.

If you want to auto-x, you absolutely need a rear motor mount and rear sway bar (on full stiff). The RSB will help with rotation A LOT.

I have found fair amount of controversy around the RSB vs other setups, and the conversations usually end with by saying it comes down to the driver and preference. I think I will hold off on the RSB at the moment, but it is on my radar.

From your signature it looks like you run the stock DS class with just a Cobb RMM and CS RSB. Do you know if the CS RMM is DS legal? And how about SPC Rear Camber Arms? I've not been able to find a definite answer on these. Thanks!

I would recommended the JBR RMM just from my personal experience with it and JBRs great customer service. I second getting the RSB especially for an autox setup. Another thing with these cars for the spirited driving is the shifting. Add shifter bushings to give you a better feel, maybe swap out the tranny fluid like a lot of people do.


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I'm not sure what controversy specifially regarding a RSB on MS3 platform you are refering to. On a FWD platform, you will always have some understeer and a stiff RSB helps with rotation, a much needed ability when autocrossing.

You are right, adding a RMM does in theory put you in STX or DSP but at local level, auto-x organizers recognize that it makes no sense to bump you to one of these classes for one stiffer motor mount and compete with guys on R-Comps in track rady cars (DSP). If you were at a National SCCA event, I'm sure this could be an issue but not locally if organizers have any common sense.

Camber arms, I would say it's pushing it because you have a way to dial in your suspension setup much better than another stock car. Best to ask your local organizers but I would say it's on the limit, especially if in addition you have a RMM and RSB.

RMM's and RSB's are one of those subjective things that you just have to guess what you like and install it... Kind of like tires. Most people haven't tried anything but the one they're running. I've heard the JBR RMM and most other RMM's are pretty firm and transfer a lot of vibration to the chassis. I have no idea how bad it really is, but this is my DD and I've heard good things about the CS RMM being a little more factory feeling and still does a good job with improving shifting and power delivery. I will have to try and research the the pros and cons of each mfg of RMM's a little more.

I have noticed the shifting could be better. I've been planning on slowly working on it to see what fixes it instead of throwing everything at it at once. RMM is the first step, bushings make a good second step, and the Ford synthetic tranny fluid would be the final step I think.


Regarding the "controversy," (a little overstated) most run the RSB and swear by them. I've seen some others run without changing the RSB and getting similar results via other adjustments for AutoX, most of which aren't DD friendly. That said, I will likely go down the RSB path. Once again, it's a little hard to decide which MFG to go with here.

Well, I think I will go without the camber arms for now and see what alignment I can get with the stock suspension. I would like to get some more wheel time on the stock suspension so I can see what the RSB does for me. I like increments and seeing the improvements at each step. :) Would I be correct to assume that an RSB will not affect my alignment? RSB should only make a dynamic change, but it can't hurt to ask... I don't want to do multiple alignments.

Thanks for all the info! I will try an autoX next month with a RMM and an alignment, with everything else stock, and we'll see how I do. I am questioning the AP a little now... Running the car 95% of the time on one tune and going back to factory tune for AutoX might be throwing a little curveball at myself. :/

Hey I'm running a JBR 88 as my DD and it's 62 miles one way. Haha. This is a pretty nice new guy thread I was expecting far less actual stuff and far more bullshit. Good luck with everything let's see some autox pics


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Safe to assume it is a little rougher of a ride? Well this thread couldn't be so nice without everyone's great inputs... Thank you everyone for all the help! I will post pics for sure. ;)

I stole this quote from another thread (OEM Toe Issue), I hope that's okay, and I was wondering if this chamber bolt is DS legal? I have a feeling it isn't and I don't want to push it, but it is just a bolt...?

I stole this quote from yet another thread (Tire Choices, ....), and this helps sway me a bit towards the DW's. I have made contact with the local NATOR group and will talk with them a little more before making a final decision. I think I will aim for a 235/40/18 tire if available in the rubber I land on, otherwise 225/40/18.

I'm not sure whether it is appropriate to link and quote from other (old) threads, but I thought I would include some sources from where my ideas are coming from. It helps me and hopefully others in a similar situation.


I'm going to do a bit more research on RSB's and try to sort out which one to go with. I may be a little biased to bundle my CS RMM with a CS RSB to save a little bit of $$. If anyone has some tips/suggestions for RSB's, please share!

I'm also going to get an alignment done this week or the next with the following specs as my goal. I will try and find a shop willing to wrestle the stock suspension and squeak as much out of the alignment as possible to try and match:
Front Toe: 0”
Front Camber: -2.2*
Front Caster: 3.5*

Rear Toe: 1/16” toe in (total)
Rear Camber: -1.4*

Cross Camber: 0
Cross Caster: 0
Steer Ahead: 0 (+/-0.02)
Thrust Angle: 0 (+/-0.02)


If I make it to Corksport before my first AutoX, I will probably get the RMM and RSB (if I decide on theirs). Otherwise, I will run completely stock. :) And I'm going to hold off on the AP for a while.

Thanks again everyone!

JBR and CS end up being about the same price but JBR ships for free. He also has a larger forum presence and listens to what people want. As a member of many forums over the years I have not seen a merchant with nearly zero negative feedback, and the following he has gotten here has been well earned.

[QUOTE=MechE;2598209]Safe to assume it is a little rougher of a ride? Well this thread couldn't be so nice without everyone's great inputs... Thank you everyone for all the help! I will post pics for sure. ;)


I got the 88a JBR mount almost immediately after getting my car (~1,500 miles, car is at 6k now) and although the reduced torque steer and engine travel is like night and day compared to stock, it really doesn't feel too different driving around, I actually thought it improved ride quality to a degree because the engine wasn't slapping back and forth every time I wanted to see how strong my right foot is. When idling you'll notice more vibes (especially with ac on) and more exhaust noise is transferred into the cabin, personally I enjoy hearing the engine breathing while driving, but it's nothing a few clicks up on the stereo volume can't handle.

Regardless of what mount you go with, I think you will immediately notice and enjoy the benefits.

Well I got my alignment done yesterday... I talked with the mechanic before handing over the keys and asked if he is willing to loosen everything and finesse everything to get as close as possible to my goals, and he looked them over and said he won't be able to do very much with the stock suspension, but will do his best. I picked the car up 3 hours later and looked over the spec sheet from before and after. The only thing he changed was front camber and front & rear toe...

Before:
Front Total Toe: 5/128" (just over 1/32") in
Front Left Camber: -1*
Front Right Camber: -1*
Front Left Caster: +3.25*
Front Right Caster: +3.75*
Rear Total Toe: 1/64" in
Rear Left Camber: -2*
Rear Right Camber: -2.25*

After:
Front Total Toe: 0
Front Left Camber: -1.25*
Front Right Camber: -1.25*
Front Left Caster: +3.25*
Front Right Caster: +3.75*
Rear Total Toe: 1/16" in
Rear Left Camber: -2*
Rear Right Camber: -2.25*

I questioned the mechanic afterwards and here is what he told me:
The caster was intentionally left 0.5* more on the right side to prevent pull due to the crown of the road. The front camber was adjusted within slop of the pinch bolt. He did not loosen the struts and finesse because the holes are likely not sloppy enough to allow a measurable difference, and therefore made no attempt at adjusting the rear camber or pushing the front a little more. He has apparently worked on many wrecked Ford Focus's and tried to correct the off alignment and has never been able to do anything significant enough by loosening bolts. I either need aftermarket adjustable parts to get anything more out of it. It would have been nice if he told me all of this upfront...

I'm not sure what to think of this... Slightly improved I suppose, and only cost me $70.

There is really not much you can do with the stock rear camber arms. Get these if you want to be able to adjust your rear camber. Just beware that the passenger side is a bitch to install.

ACDelco 45K0187 Professional Rear Suspension Upper Control Armature Assembly:Amazon:Automotive

JBR 88A RMM is amazing as far as engine movement and shift quality, it is a 100% difference even vs many soft aftermarket mounts.. Vibes are there because racecar but it just depends on personality at that point. Engine braking near 3k makes everything vibrate so you will learn to deal with that or avoid it + having the AC on is definitely noticable. I had the CS mount first and there was plenty of clunking and engine moment still which I was not happy with. Maybe try the 80A if you really can't stand the vibes of the 88A.

Wish I would have seen this thread earlier and I could have told you your camber goals just weren't going to happen. I'm on swifts running 1.5 front and rear, although I think I want to reduce camber in the rear to 1.2. I'm running the CS camber arms and they have been great. They've held their setting and just had to remove the wheel to adjust them.

If you do choose to go to a class like stx, you can wallow the strut mount holes and gain some camber up front though....just a thought.

No worries, @2k4_8, I knew there wasn't much freedom to adjust. I have seen people post specs within that range for their stock cars, so being close to any of them would have been luck. Now I know what my alignment is, and I'm happy with it for now.

As promised, AutoX pictures... :) Ran with the ORPCA last weekend and ran against 11 other FWD cars (most modified) and placed 5th of 12. :) A heavily modified '99 Neon won by a full second over 2nd place, at 39.184s. My best time of the day was 42.623s. I had a lot of fun and will do it again soon.

No mods yet, and likely getting new tires first.

Where did you get that idea? That is the furthest thing from the truth. In fact it's the complete opposite.

Anyone wanting to make decent, to good power this is one of the top 2 or 3 mods you need FIRST!. This is a significant mod in a number of ways. Not only can you retune/flash over and over again and revise your tune (when new mods added etc.) but its the #1 way to monitor whats going on with your setup on a regular basis. Not only from the display of numerous different things you can monitor but also taking on the fly logs!!

I think he meant it as significant difficulty. Like plugging in an AP isn't the same as doing a full TBE. Poor wording, but I don't think he meant to lessen the AP


Murica'

Ah that would make more sense.