Controlling / limiting wheelspin in 1st and 2nd gears

[fortressofcomfort]

So we all know that Cobb's OTS maps eliminate the 'throttle' or as Mazda would call it Advanced Engine Management in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears. When I initially got my AP and installed the Stage1 map for my car I thought This Is Awesome! At first, burning rubber everywhere seemed fun and a trait of manlihood.

I'm beginning to feel otherwise now. After recently beating a turbo Cobalt SS, and a Chevy Camaro V6 (a new one), I realized that I had only beat them because I could launch better. For example, the Cobalt (with unknown mods but at least a loud exhaust) I had by about 5-7 car lengths after I launched better than he did, plus he missed 2nd gear, but he was in fact gaining on me. By about 90mph when we both shut if down I was only 2 or 3 car lengths ahead; that little booger can move. The point is, I quickly came to the realization that computer tools like LC/FFS can make or break a race like this.

What I'd like to do is restore some of the throttle management to 1st and 2nd gears. I can hear it now "just learn how to drive!" but bear with me here. I did a lot of searching and there seems to be little we can do now that most of us are boost tuning. There are indeed a lot of older threads that imply setting up (let's call it a governor) is relatively easy when using load based tuning, using the TRL (by gear) and DBW tables ; but for boost based tuning we have many less options. It seems, to me, that all we have left are the Boost Compensation by gear tables and APP by gear tables. I did play around with the 1st-2nd gear boost compensation table, setting values to like 0.85 from 3,000 to 5,500 rpms; this made second gear hook up awesomely with just a hint of tire haze from time to time. Problem is, this table links 1st and 2nd gears together therefore I was still torching the tires in 1st gear. Then I thought well maybe I can lower the APP translation just for 1st gear and that would do it. I set that table to give me a maximum of 55% regardless of actual accelerator pedal position. But this didn't seem to work, I was still getting full boost after coming out of LC and blazing the Dunlops.

So what to do? It seems I have 2nd gear working well, 3rd gear is not an issue on my car (yet) since I haven't opened up the exhaust side yet, but 1st gear is still hopeless. Do I need to drop the maximum APP even further for 1st gear, or take some completely different route I'm setting this up? I'm so close, so comfortable with the way I can get this car up to speed now if it weren't for the pesky inability to dial back 1st gear. Do I need to go back to load based tuning to achieve this? Thoughts please.

[leon78]

Fail wheel drive.....

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by leon78 Fail wheel drive.....

Sure, but my point is I personally am willing to accept any electronic nannies in order to help the black booger get off the line. We all know 1st gear is miserable in this car so to me it doesn't seem like an unreasonable question to ask, 'is there any help out there for reducing this problem.'

As an aside I checked Tire Rack and it seems 225s are the widest we can go on these 7.5" rims. Perhaps stickier tires like Michelin Pilot Sports would help but I doubt switching to these would help as much as to the degree my 1st gear traction fails. Would suspension changes help, like perhaps a thinner front anti-roll bar, a thicker rear anti-roll bar or stiffer springs/shocks all the way around? I'm not getting any wheel hop so I don't think stiffer motor mounts are the answer.

[86AmishMs3]

Tires make a big difference...I still launch better then a lot of rwd drivers out there on my nt05's on BT.

[TiGraySpeed6]

IIRC, there's something to do with blowing through first gear faster than the ECU can control the wastegate?

[dizzydtrain]

I think that some people have thrown 235's on their stock wheels. First mod would be stickier tires because the Dunlops do not cut it.

Other mods that will allow you to launch better are upgraded motor mounts. Look at the Rear Motor Mount, Transmission Mount, and Passenger Mount from James Barone--upgrading those will reduce wheel hop and increase tire contact with the pavement. You will still experience wheel spin, although it will reduce it slightly.

I am not a suspension guru, but if I recall correctly, tightening up the suspension would allow for a better launch by reducing the front end to lift off as much.

[exentix]

was just thinking about this yesterday. after I get my intake, internals, and tune, I imagine 3rd will be sketchy from time to time. is it not possible to somehow take a stock tune (with boost limited) and modify it from there. or just lower boost targets in first and second?

subbing for traction lol

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by exentix was just thinking about this yesterday. after I get my intake, internals, and tune, I imagine 3rd will be sketchy from time to time. is it not possible to somehow take a stock tune (with boost limited) and modify it from there. or just lower boost targets in first and second? subbing for traction lol

The OTS tunes are boost tuned but there is only one table boost vs rpms. There is a boost compensation by rpm by gear but like I said 1st and 2nd gear share the same table making it very limited. A stock tune is load tuned and that changes everything.

[fortressofcomfort]

bump @Bucker @phate @Lex @rfinkle2 help me out here guys.

[phate]

You have a couple options for doing this:

1) Limit the maximum amount the throttle opens in relation to your accelerator pedal position - This is done with the APP Translation tables, by gear. Effective and simple.

2) TRL xGear Load limits in first and second gear can be limited by lowering the load targets lower than what you are currently achieving. You will need to enable the overload portion of "WG Load Error Comp" table to do this. This would probably take more time to dial in, but the results may be better and more consistent. You can pull power in certain rpm ranges (in each gear!) using this method, as well.

I'm not sure if the boost by gear tables are working now, or not. [They never used to, lolol.] If they're working, that would be a viable option, also.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by phate Limit the maximum amount the throttle opens in relation to your accelerator pedal position - This is done with the APP Translation tables, by gear. Effective and simple.

Thanks. I did try taking the 1st gear APP down to 55%. Basically I took the stock values and when they got above 55% I set them to 55%. I still got massive wheelspin in 1st gear.

Are you suggesting I may need to actually take it down further than that? Like 1st gear APP max at 35% ??

The Boost Comp tables are out (even if they did work) because 1st and 2nd gear are tied together. That's just not gonna work.

Also, are you saying the TRL xGear Load limits tables will work even with boost tuning? Should I adjust the Normal BAT and High BAT tables to be the same or is there some other method?

[phate]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Thanks. I did try taking the 1st gear APP down to 55%. Basically I took the stock values and when they got above 55% I set them to 55%. I still got massive wheelspin in 1st gear. Are you suggesting I may need to actually take it down further than that? Like 1st gear APP max at 35% ?? The Boost Comp tables are out (even if they did work) because 1st and 2nd gear are tied together. That's just not gonna work.

Yeah, it may need taken way down in first gear. When I'm autocrossing on E85, I have to limit it to 35-40% in first, and around 50% in second. Just too much POWA!!!

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by phate Yeah, it may need taken way down in first gear. When I'm autocrossing on E85, I have to limit it to 35-40% in first, and around 50% in second. Just too much POWA!!!

OK I'll try that. Did you see that last line of my post that I added late:

"Also, are you saying the TRL xGear Load limits tables will work even with boost tuning? Should I adjust the Normal BAT and High BAT tables to be the same or is there some other method?"

I thought these were load-tuning tables.

Anyway I'll try the low low APP settings and report back. Thanks PHATE!

[phate]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort OK I'll try that. Did you see that last line of my post that I added late: "Also, are you saying the TRL xGear Load limits tables will work even with boost tuning? Should I adjust the Normal BAT and High BAT tables to be the same or is there some other method?" I thought these were load-tuning tables. Anyway I'll try the low low APP settings and report back. Thanks PHATE!

Ah, no, I saw it before the edit!

The TRL xGear tables are still active with the boost tuning box checked. The load error comp (LEC) table is still active, so you can use it in conjunction with boost tuning. What some have dubbed "Hybrid Tuning".

It's pretty effective, especially for lowering boost when it gets super cold out!

[fortressofcomfort]

Again, thanks much. I will certainly try the low APP values in 1st and 2nd gear and see if I like that. If that sucks or I can't get it dialed in for some reason I'll investigate "Hybrid Tuning." Like I'm driving a Prius lol.

[dantes5823]

Subbed

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort As an aside I checked Tire Rack and it seems 225s are the widest we can go on these 7.5" rims.

Nope, i'm running 245/40/18 Dunlop MAXX GT's (Front only) and have zero issues... its a little silly looking but fits.

[JS + MS3]

Before I got my new rims and tires, I never really launched my car from the dig hard because I hated it. It always just hopped and crap.

After I installed the new set of rims and tires, I actually enjoy launching it because it's MUCH, MUCH better.

Ditch the Dunslips and get a stickier and wider tires.

[phate]

Let me tell you guys, I'll be using the hybrid method to slowly build more power for launching on slicks. It'll either cut some sick ass 60' times when full power is ramped in in 1st gear, or I'll break shit before I get there

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Nope, i'm running 245/40/18 Dunlop MAXX GT's (Front only) and have zero issues... its a little silly looking but fits.

On stock GenPu rims?

Originally Posted by phate Let me tell you guys, I'll be using the hybrid method to slowly build more power for launching on slicks. It'll either cut some sick ass 60' times when full power is ramped in in 1st gear, or I'll break shit before I get there

Well we'll use your experience to our advantage :-)

As they say, "you aren't going fast enough unles you are breaking stuff."

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort On stock GenPu rims?

Yes, no rubbing when full turn, no nothing. I wouldn't recommend going any bigger but these don't exactly look like they're hanging on for dear life. Been on the car for mmm 3-5k miles now??

give me about an hour and a half to two hours and i can have some pics up when i get home from school. I understand this isnt going to be the be all end all fix to this thread but 245's do fit.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Yes, no rubbing when full turn, no nothing. I wouldn't recommend going any bigger but these don't exactly look like they're hanging on for dear life. Been on the car for mmm 3-5k miles now?? give me about an hour and a half to two hours and i can have some pics up when i get home from school. I understand this isnt going to be the be all end all fix to this thread but 245's do fit.

Well in all seriousness, 245 over 225 is about a 9% gain and then you throw in a stickier compound for maybe 10%, that puts your setup at about a 20% advantage over stock (just throwing numbers out there). This is still not enough to eliminate wheelspin in 1st and probably not enough to eliminate it in 2nd, although you could, thru tuning, get more power to the ground with your wide meats.

[Onelovesoccer]

i have 235s on mine and there is absolutely no issue. on the genpu rims, you can put 235s on easy. i didn't think 245s would work though.

motor mounts and wider/stickier tires will help a lot. but what you're working on will help too.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Well in all seriousness, 245 over 225 is about a 9% gain and then you throw in a stickier compound for maybe 10%, that puts your setup at about a 20% advantage over stock (just throwing numbers out there). This is still not enough to eliminate wheelspin in 1st and probably not enough to eliminate it in 2nd, although you could, thru tuning, get more power to the ground with your wide meats.

Right, as i said. However with the JBR PMM and SU RMM i can hook a 2nd gear 40 with no drama, and ive dynod at 420 wtq. Granted thats in 4th gear so its safe to say 2nd would be a little less but mechanical issues help grip just as well as electrical... granted since you already have ATR the electrical fixes are free haha.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Onelovesoccer i have 235s on mine and there is absolutely no issue. on the genpu rims, you can put 235s on easy. i didn't think 245s would work though. motor mounts and wider/stickier tires will help a lot. but what you're working on will help too.

Yeah the tires are the kind of thing I'll upgrade when the time comes. With only 8k miles on the car there is too much tread left to be yanking them off of there to put 235s on.

How's your tune going? I applied @Bucker ATR tune to my Stage 1 OTS last night step by step line by line mind-numbing; all I have left is to dial in the APP tables for 1st and 2nd. I'm hoping to see 280-290 g/s mass airflow in 3rd and 4th. Gonna see how far I can get on my own before calling in the masters. I have run @Bucker 's tune before and it turns the car into a monster in one step. If I get lots of KR then I won't f with it anymore and get the pros to do it. As a computer programmer, car nut, performance guru, I want to learn how to do all this myself if possible; it is in no way a put down to others (esp if I blow the fucking thing up lol).

I'm still reluctant to do motor mounts... after ripping a 3" hole in the trans casing of my old Dodge I have come to the conclusion that some "give" is necessary. And I don't wheelhop for some reason. When it starts wheelhopping or when I reach a power level where the stock mounts tear or the motor hits the firewall I'll put in the JBR stuff. Right now I'm a motor mount wussie.

[Onelovesoccer]

yeah, i didn't change my tires until the stock ones were shot (20k). my tune is done and it feel really fucking good. once i get my TMIC, i'll get it re-adjusted.

as for motor mounts, don't be reluctant!!! especially for the RMM! it's nothing compared to the TMM and PMM. i'm telling you, the stock ones are crap. you'll have a lot less wheel hop with the motor mounts, and you WILL have the hop once Bucker is done with you. i really think you should get the RMM at least.

[fortressofcomfort]

Everyone on the boards say to get the RMM, but no one here has put a 3" hole in their transmission case because they bolted the powertrain so solidly to the frame that something had to give and it was the trans case itself. I understand completely what solid motor mounts do... like I've said I've pulled 1.9 60' times with a 1997 Dodge Neon with 140whp, stock block, ported head, stock axles, stock trans, stock clutch, stock exhaust, etc etc. That's the same car that eventually ran 14.1s and gave up its trans case in the process. Not an easy fix. Maybe I should just stop comparing the Neon to the MS3. Maybe that's my problem.

[phate]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Everyone on the boards say to get the RMM, but no one here has put a 3" hole in their transmission case because they bolted the powertrain so solidly to the frame that something had to give and it was the trans case itself. I understand completely what solid motor mounts do... like I've said I've pulled 1.9 60' times with a 1997 Dodge Neon with 140whp, stock block, ported head, stock axles, stock trans, stock clutch, stock exhaust, etc etc. That's the same car that eventually gave up its trans case. Maybe I should just stop comparing the Neon to the MS3. Maybe that's my problem.

I don't think anyone (MS3) has damaged a trans case like that, actually. None that I remember hearing about.

We'll find out, I'm hoping to cut 1.6x 60's.

[helmetface]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 Tires make a big difference...I still launch better then a lot of rwd drivers out there on my nt05's on BT.

A lot of RWD drivers don't know how to launch..

[fortressofcomfort]

Phate I have a tip for you:
Be sure to get your slicks balanced on whatever rims you will be running.

I ran real small 22" x 8" I think slicks on weld wheels. With the aforementioned motor mounts I could dump the clutch at full throttle at 6k rpms and the car would not shudder, wheelhop, no clutch slip, no tire slip, its a f'in amazing experience. CAR JUST GOES. 1.6's must be ever nutsier.

Anyway I never thought of balancing the slicks to the Welds and when I hit 4th gear at about 80mph the whole car started shaking so bad it knocked some of the exhaust system loose (which was loud but an easy fix) lol

[phate]

For sure man. We have the second largest race tire distributor in the US like 20 minutes from where I live. They do mounting and balancing in house, so I should be set!

[fortressofcomfort]

Cool and get the right height.... it's an easy way to stretch a gear/eliminate a shift, or add a gear to your run. Its the same as changing final drive ratio but you know this.

[fortressofcomfort]

OK, I got Bucker's tuning guidelines applied and, other than some slight changes I had to make after a couple logs; for example (<=5%) WGDC increases (over OTS stage1 map) so I can hit the 18psi (requires right around 90% WGDC at the top rpms so this is pushing the current hardware) and 1 degree of ignition timing I had to take out/remove at 2500-3000 rpms, this car fucking rips now. Total transformation. The 11.8 AFRs seems to be doing just fine on my car.

I'm finding the basic guidelines for setting the WGDC inconsistent among guides and forums. There's Dano's law. Then there's Bucker's plug the logged number into the map, and let us not forget Abilor's plug 20s into every cell. The only resource I made us of outside of the "ATR Cheat Sheet.pdf" was Abilor's paragraph on "ratio/percentage" method of adjusting WGDC. It seems to work best on my 2012. For example if I command 18psi and am getting only 17psi, I'll increase the existing map value by a factor of (18/17 = 1.059). This seems to get the boost just right the next time I log. WGDC is definitely one of the trickiest parts of tuning these bitches.

These cars like to go haywire it seems right as boost comes on, around 2,250 - 2,500rpms. A little overboost occurs (2psi extra), a little knock (1.0), a couple degrees igntion timing gets pulled (resorts to "knocking" maps), a little fuel gets thrown in for good measure, the throttle gets closed slightly, and then a half second later it all magically stabilizes by 3,000 rpms. Weird, its like the ECU can't quite deal with the sudden boost from 4psi at 2,000 rpms to 18psi at 3,000rpms. YAY I'm finally rocking 18psi with no exhaust work, no real knock, and over 260g/s airflow on nothing but intake and internals. @Bucker you are the man for releasing the "ATR Cheat Sheet.pdf"; it has transformed my stage1 OTS tune into what I now shall call the Stage 1++ Bucker Tune and has turned me on to tuning the black booger mydelf. The guidelines in the manual are so very close to what a stage 1 car needs its ridiculous. Thanks for getting me (and others I would imagine) started on the hobby of tuning. I took a buddy for a ride (actually he drove too) and we were astonished by the output. I mean it goes in 3rd, it goes in 4th, it keeps going in 5th until I let off at 115mph. Just keeps pulling.

So for sure the first three upgrades/ best bang for your buck are:
- Cobb AP
- CDFP internals
- Tune (whether you approach it like I am doing or send out to one of the teams)

I can't imagine any better way to spend like $1,000 on upgrades on this car. These three upgrades must net like 40hp and 70lb/ft of torque. Crazy good.


BUT UH OH, ANYWAY BACK TO TRACTION PROBLEMS blech:

I had lowered the 1st gear APP to 40% and 2nd gear to 65%. 1st gear still blazing Dunlops but 2nd gear is real close now. In a straight line in second it just flicks the traction control light every so often. I lowered 1st gear to what I believe to be an astounding 30% max APP and 2nd to 60% and will try again tomorrow (later today; it is late.... is there something about tuning in ATR and suddenly realizing its 3 or 4am in the morning? Am I the only one?)

Anyway as you might suspect, tuning is exciting esp when you have a good foundation and start to really learn how to turn logs into powah.

[fortressofcomfort]

So for all the folks who just want to know the answer to the original question, or are tired of me spewing praise about @Bucker, here is the bottom line.


How to get traction on a lightly modified MS3 by fortressofcomfort:

Requires: 1) One MS3 with traction issues, 2) Cobb AP, 3) Cobb ATR, 4) Long straight road to test, 5) Patience

Step #1) Turn on Launch Control:
1) Open your map in ATR
2) Go to Limiter Tables
3) Set FFS to 5000
4) Set LC to 2750
5) Set LC/FFS threshold to 6.21

Step #2) Dial back 1st and 2nd gears:
1) Go to Throttle Tables
2) Set APP Translation - 1st gear to 30%. In other words, set any value in the table to 30% that is > 30%
3) Set APP Translation - 2nd gear to 40%. Same thing, set any value in the table to 40% that is > 40%

Step #3) Load and test
1) Save map
2) Flash map to car
3) Find flat smooth road
4) Turn off traction control
5) Floor throttle. Do not lift until end of road test.
6) Ease clutch out with the idea you want the tach to stay steady at 3k rpms. You will hear boost build and the car will quickly start gathering itself. The clutch should be completely engaged when you hear your turbo fully spooled (at 35% lol). Practice.
7) With right foot planted, shift to 2nd at 6k rpms.
8) With right foot planted, shift to 3rd at 6k rpms.
9) Lift and go home.
10) Consider how the car did and all the variables that affect traction on a daily basis. Some of these are: ambient (outdoor) temperature, state of map (if you add or remove power globally, it will affect the APP % you need to run), the "stickiness" of the road you tested on versus the roads you generally drive on most, the amount of sunshine out that day, etc.
11) Consider first gear especially. You will probably always need to either "roll" into the throttle in 1st gear (after clutch is engaged at 3.5k+ rpms), or short shift to 2nd to prevent wheelspin. Don't expect 1st gear to ever be completely nanny proofed.
12) Consider where you want to be on the hero versus consistency continuum. For example, my goal is to win races and embarass as many fellow driving enthusiasts possible. I don't care if I can put a 13.5 in my signature when in reality most of runs are in the 14s or failed completely due to total traction failure. Therefore I want consistency. This means I'd want lower APP %s. Perhaps you are different, are drag racing on a very sticky (VHT) track that evening, and just want to impress everyone on MSF with one awesome run, or one great 60' time, or a pic of a broken axle that you can put in your sig. Then you'll want higher APPs overall and to say a prayer before each run that you find a bit of extra rubber left behind by that 9 second Chevelle that just ran in your lane before you or you find a bit of extra VHT or that you can slot into the groove perfectly.
13) Based on 10 through 12, if not 90% satisfied, copy your map to have a new version number (I find this works well), open new version in ATR, make changes in APP tables in roughly 5% increments, and go back to this section's #1.

Remember you'll never get perfect APP % #s that are always satisfying. You need to find APP % numbers that give you want you want most of the time.

[Roddiy]

This sounds like winning, me wants AP!

EDIT: Any way you could take a 0-60 time, to see how it compares to stock??

[Darth_Nuruodo]

I know I was promising to stay stock, but everything I read tells me I think I need an AP and see how far it can take just the stock hardware.... You've basically convinced me @fortressofcomfort with your posts in this and the other thread you posted that list. Even if it does end up with me single because the woman freaks out, at least I'll have teh fast(er)s slow car.

[fortressofcomfort]

Hi guys.

@Darth_Nuruodo: I would bet that with just an AP alone and good fuel and an aggressive tune, you could gain 30-40hp and 50-60lb/ft of torque with no hardware changes at all. I could be wrong as I speak from only my experience. But people should not gasp at the $600 price tag of the AP. It is worth every penny and should be the first mod on these cars (screw you RMM fans).

All: I tweaked the APP Translation values a bit for the "baseline" a couple posts above. For 1st gear, start at 30%. For 2nd gear, start at 50%. I originally had these both 5% higher but that was too much.

Obviously all these values, APP Translation values, LC/FFS, etc. can and will need to be tweaked. For example, the original APP values of 35%/55% worked fine but it was a warm day and the roads I was testing on were in very good repair. After driving some more last night, I noticed cold tires (<50F) or any slight bumps in the road start the drama (wheelspin). So just use my numbers as a starting point and go from there. Obviously there is a continuum that you can decide where you want to be. At one end is max power to the ground, at the other end is consistency.

@Bucker, took more logs last night, good 4th gear ones out to 6,500 and again I am still amazed at this thing. I started getting a bit of knock up around 6k but it was boosting 18.5psi and your suggestion is to command 17psi at that level. So a quick change to a few WGDC cells and I'm back in business. WGDC definitely an art. So it seems that, when dealing with knock, that first you make sure your actual boost psi is reasonable, then if it is, pull timing, and if all else fails squirt more fuel. At least that seems to be the way to solve KR in the simplest fashion.

Thanks again all for a good thread.

[Bucker]

Originally Posted by Darth_Nuruodo I know I was promising to stay stock, but everything I read tells me I think I need an AP and see how far it can take just the stock hardware.... You've basically convinced me @fortressofcomfort with your posts in this and the other thread you posted that list. Even if it does end up with me single because the woman freaks out, at least I'll have teh fast(er)s slow car.

Another "First Log" post

First VD plot is my car stock, with just the AP and HPFP internals.

Second is fully bolted.

Third is bolted and on nitrous.

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Hi guys. @Darth_Nuruodo: I would bet that with just an AP alone and good fuel and an aggressive tune, you could gain 30-40hp and 50-60lb/ft of torque with no hardware changes at all. I could be wrong as I speak from only my experience. But people should not gasp at the $600 price tag of the AP. It is worth every penny and should be the first mod on these cars (screw you RMM fans). All: I tweaked the APP Translation values a bit for the "baseline" a couple posts above. For 1st gear, start at 30%. For 2nd gear, start at 50%. I originally had these both 5% higher but that was too much. Obviously all these values, APP Translation values, LC/FFS, etc. can and will need to be tweaked. For example, the original APP values of 35%/55% worked fine but it was a warm day and the roads I was testing on were in very good repair. After driving some more last night, I noticed cold tires (<50F) or any slight bumps in the road start the drama (wheelspin). So just use my numbers as a starting point and go from there. Obviously there is a continuum that you can decide where you want to be. At one end is max power to the ground, at the other end is consistency. @Bucker, took more logs last night, good 4th gear ones out to 6,500 and again I am still amazed at this thing. I started getting a bit of knock up around 6k but it was boosting 18.5psi and your suggestion is to command 17psi at that level. So a quick change to a few WGDC cells and I'm back in business. WGDC definitely an art. So it seems that, when dealing with knock, that first you make sure your actual boost psi is reasonable, then if it is, pull timing, and if all else fails squirt more fuel. At least that seems to be the way to solve KR in the simplest fashion. Thanks again all for a good thread.

Hey!

I actually like to add fuel before pulling the timing. It is less detrimental to power output.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Bucker Hey! I actually like to add fuel before pulling the timing. It is less detrimental to power output.

Good to know. I'm a complete novice at this but its fun. I appreciate you helping me out here. I know at least some others will benefit from our conversation even though it probably belongs in the ECU forum. Rock on dude.

Originally Posted by Roddiy This sounds like winning, me wants AP! EDIT: Any way you could take a 0-60 time, to see how it compares to stock??

I did use the AP last night to take 0-60 times, for the first time ever. I tried twice. First time complete failure. 2nd run was 0-60 in 6.2 seconds, 2.4 60' time. Keep in mind this was the Baltimore Beltway, not Cecil County Dragway. It def has low 5s 0-60 in it with the electronic nannies I've provided, more practice, and sticky/warm surface. I don't know how accurate the AP is either.

[Roddiy]

I believe a stock GenPu can do 0-60 in ~5.6 seconds with a good launch, im just wondering how your nannies would help in that aspect, since we are, after all, still limited by the fail wheel drive.

In before 4.8 sec 0-60 genpu!