Controlling / limiting wheelspin in 1st and 2nd gears

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Roddiy I believe a stock GenPu can do 0-60 in ~5.6 seconds with a good launch, im just wondering how your nannies would help in that aspect, since we are, after all, still limited by the fail wheel drive. In before 4.8 sec 0-60 genpu!

5.6 seconds 0-60 is the best time I've ever seen posted by a REPUTABLE source (C&D) and that's with a PERFECT launch. 99% of launches are less than perfect. C&D for example tests their cars on prepped surfaces designed for testing. For my 2nd try ever producing a timed 0-60 run I believe 6.2 is damned good, esp on the unprepped surface known as I-695.

But I see your point, and here's your answer: The nannies are there to make launching more CONSISTENT, not faster. I bet it took C&D 10 runs to get that 5.6 second pass. The passes that were bad were probably REALLY bad, like 7 or 8 seconds. And those guys are professional drivers, not fortressofcomforts. I believe my settings will allow me to get 90%+ out of the car 80+% of the time, as opposed to C&D getting 100% out of the car 10% of the time.

And let's face it, how many STREETABLE front wheel drive cars, NO MATTER THE HORSEPOWER, can break 5 seconds 0-60? I can't even think of any. It's just simple physics I suppose. Just like RWD has a limit of roughly 3.3 seconds (Corvette ZR-1) and AWD of 2.8 seconds (Nissan GT-R, Bugatti Veyron). You could add another 1,000 horsepower to each of these examples and you MIGHT improve 0-60 times in the order of a tenth or two.

If anyone feels up to a challenge, go to a public road and use your AP to record your 0-60 time. Feel free to use the stock nannies or no nannies. You get two tries only. Tell me what your best 0-60 time is. See what I'm getting at? If you had 10 chances, you might get one at 5.8 or 6.0 but the rest will be 7.5, 8.5, etc.

[Roddiy]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort 5.6 seconds 0-60 is the best time I've ever seen posted by a REPUTABLE source (C&D) and that's with a PERFECT launch. 99% of launches are less than perfect. C&D for example tests their cars on prepped surfaces designed for testing. For my 2nd try ever producing a timed 0-60 run I believe 6.2 is damned good, esp on the unprepped surface known as I-695. But I see your point, and here's your answer: The nannies are there to make launching more CONSISTENT, not faster. I bet it took C&D 10 runs to get that 5.6 second pass. The passes that were bad were probably REALLY bad, like 7 or 8 seconds. And those guys are professional drivers, not fortressofcomforts. I believe my settings will allow me to get 90%+ out of the car 80+% of the time, as opposed to C&D getting 100% out of the car 10% of the time. And let's face it, how many STREETABLE front wheel drive cars, NO MATTER THE HORSEPOWER, can break 5 seconds 0-60? I can't even think of any. It's just simple physics I suppose. Just like RWD has a limit of roughly 3.3 seconds (Corvette ZR-1) and AWD of 2.8 seconds (Nissan GT-R, Bugatti Veyron). You could add another 1,000 horsepower to each of these examples and you MIGHT improve 0-60 times in the order of a tenth or two. If anyone feels up to a challenge, go to a public road and use your AP to record your 0-60 time. Feel free to use the stock nannies or no nannies. You get two tries only. Tell me what your best 0-60 time is. See what I'm getting at? If you had 10 chances, you might get one at 5.8 or 6.0 but the rest will be 7.5, 8.5, etc.

You see, thats one thing that was running my head, I believe the limitation will come from FWD, no matter the power, after a certain point, it might even hurt your 0-60s. but it will never go below 5ishl

Just plain physics in a way, but interesting how it affects us daily.

[86AmishMs3]

I go from 0-60 in about a second...easy.

[fortressofcomfort]

I think, if I was bored enough to do the math, that even if I dropped you AND your car off a cliff that you would not accelerate that fast. Physics guys, physics.

[86AmishMs3]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort I think, if I was bored enough to do the math, that even if I dropped you AND your car off a cliff that you would not accelerate that fast. Physics guys, physics.

Acceleration due to gravity is about 21.9miles/h2

So There's that answer.

I can still spin to 60. But on your topic I think I can break 5s on street tires

My bad 21mph/s

[2011speed]

i was still able to hit 15 psi second gear stock... the stock limiters only apply if ur steerig wheel is turned

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

[Darth_Nuruodo]

Originally Posted by 2011speed i was still able to hit 15 psi second gear stock... the stock limiters only apply if ur steerig wheel is turned Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

So judging by that and your sig, you bone stock hardware with just a tune, and putting down that 1/4 number? I'm really starting to lean toward this route, at least till the new car smell wears off of the warranty, or I actually get above water on this loan...

Or even better turn my girl into a tuner too, get her to pop that mod cherry on the new FR-S when it comes out. Talked her into getting it as her next car, and working right now on convincing her that auto-x'ing that car would be awesome and she would have tons of fun doing it. So step 1 is done, and 2 is in progress. Who knows maybe talk her into going fully bolted together because those are definitely going to have strong aftermarket support very soon after coming out, with as much anticipation people have for them. Hopefully Cobb gets in on them and we can take both cars up to Plano, that's my kind of romantic weekend hah.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by 86azms3 Acceleration due to gravity is about 21.9miles/h2 So There's that answer. I can still spin to 60. But on your topic I think I can break 5s on street tires My bad 21mph/s

So I was correct! You would only hit 21mph after 1 second of falling off a cliff (barring no other factors such as low density air (in the mountains), or a head or tailwind). Someone could go to NYC, rig their AP somehow to an an airspeed gauge instead of a speedo, and drop it off of the top floor of the Empire State Building. We might even get maximum theoretical 1/4 mile times this way as well.

With your mods I believe it is possible to break 0-60 in 5 seconds with your car IF YOU CAN DRIVE. Traction, tires, driver, number of attempts, so many variables.
One thing that really hurts our 0-60 times is the having to shift from 2nd to 3rd problem. I wonder if we took that out of the equation what our 0-60 times would be? A half second faster? Does that sound about right?

[fortressofcomfort]

OK, I'm starting to have a bit of concern over the APP Translation method of controlling wheelspin. Yes it is quick but performance leaves a bit to be desired.

Today it was warmer out than usual and I sat still with the car idling for a few minutes talking to a friend. When I took off (at full throttle of course) the car was a total poop and was no where near spinning its tires. In other words, it would have been nice if the computer had pushed the pedal down a little further in this situation.

Boost tuning works pretty well for most driving situations because you just want to get as much power as possible. But for controlling wheelspin I can see the advantages of load tuning. As @phate had said, this is called "hybrid" tuning.

It would be nice to have the ability to deliver a consistent x amount of power in 1st gear, a consistent y amount of power in 2nd gear, and then just boost tune the rest of the gears to maintain simplicity.

So this is just an fyi.... There is a caveat (which was pointed out earlier) using the APP tables for controlling wheelspin. I'm going to see what all is on these forums regarding hybrid tuning and possibly go down that route.

[Boatcop1]

Pfft! Naws = Sub 5 second 0-60's!

Seriously though, anyone try 0-60's on drag radials? Not saying it would equal 5's but curious none the less.

[grantmm]

Like mentioned earlier, with relatively warm RS3s I'm getting 5.4-5.5 0-60 runs with just an intake and STX tune. Get some meaty tires on there before you worry about 0-60 because you'll never get away from wheelspin until you do.

[fortressofcomfort]

I posted this (well, a simple observation by @snailD turned into a heated debate/explanation between Bucker and me so I actually jacked SnailD's thread, sorry dude).

Dyno soon. Changing tune.

over in the ECU forum but I thought you guys might want to know a couple things:

1) If you plan on controlling wheelspin using the APP tables in ATR, and plan on going/racing in the 1/4 mile track, I suggest you create TWO maps. One with your APP street settings and another with your track settings. I found tonight that VHT is very sticky stuff (well I always knew this but....) and it caused me some problems during launch.

2) If you plan on controlling launches using the LC table, and plan on going/racing in the 1/4 mile track, I suggest you include your track (higher LC) values in your track map as they will probably be a good bit higher than your street LC values.

finally
3) Confirmed that the Hyundai Genesis is a poo. Maybe its just that they are all falling into the hands of inexperienced (young drivers). But my 2nd run EVER in my mostly stock MS3 (13.89 @ 105.36) was unbeaten by DOZENS of runs by 4 Hyundai Genesis drivers. 3 of them had the 2.0T with various levels of modifications, and one had the V6. None of them broke into the 13s and I was watching very closely. That is embarrasing especially since they have the huge advantage of RWD. I was quite surprised at the lack of performance, really. None of the 4 cylinders could even break 100mph in the 1/4 (the V6 did though). If Hyundai's supposed "new" 2.0T isn't at least 40% more powerful than the "old" 2.0T then Hyundai afficianados better kiss the aftermarket goodbye.

Anyway, I figured some of you would be interested in these tidbits.

[dooderek]

[Darth_Nuruodo]

Yeah yeah just keep lording your awesome wheel drive over us. Then again, maybe MS6 AWD is better at limiting wheel spin because of how much power is lost parasitically through the drivetrain.

[BigRedSpecial]

Subbed. I'm going to set up a street tune and a LC'd track tune. I just ordered NT05s so I'll test it out once I get them on. Not much point in testing for the shitty limits of my all seasons.

[G26]

I didn't think the APP translation tables worked. When I tried this back in the day it didn't do anything.

I am guessing they work now?

I'm going to have to set this up for 1st and 2nd, I hate spinning now.

[fortressofcomfort]

G26 you have to set them very low. For street, start at 30% 1st, 40% 2nd. For strip, I don't know but they have to be higher. See my threads all in ECU forum. Turns out the APP limits start to affect all kind of stuff at the strip (not the track). On the track I'm thinking I'll run probably 50%, 70% or something, not sure.

Why does your sig say TMIC fail? Do you mean you want a FMIC? After drag racing this week I can assure you this would be my #1 next gain for the 1/4 mile performance. Screw DP, screw TP, I want a FMIC. I had BATs of 140F almost and they did not come down. I'm thinking a FMIC would be worth 30-40F less degree BATs. Sure you won't see this in normal street driving and the TMIC is fine. But at the strip it is definitely fail.

[G26]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort G26 you have to set them very low. For street, start at 30% 1st, 40% 2nd. For strip, I don't know but they have to be higher. See my threads all in ECU forum. Turns out the APP limits start to affect all kind of stuff at the strip (not the track). On the track I'm thinking I'll run probably 50%, 70% or something, not sure. Why does your sig say TMIC fail? Do you mean you want a FMIC? After drag racing this week I can assure you this would be my #1 next gain for the 1/4 mile performance. Screw DP, screw TP, I want a FMIC. I had BATs of 140F almost and they did not come down. I'm thinking a FMIC would be worth 30-40F less degree BATs. Sure you won't see this in normal street driving and the TMIC is fine. But at the strip it is definitely fail.

Yeah, on the dyno my bats were 35-40* hotter than a guy with the cs fmic. Also, I don't want to have to worry about bat's if I have been sitting in traffic or stopped for a couple min, and I wanna get on it.

Now 30% in 1st and 40% in 2nd, what does it actually feel like?

[fortressofcomfort]

TRY IT! On my car it was just enough to, what I call, "haze" the tires. During a street start it would rev up and then just sort of chirp chirp chirp chirp, same in 2nd gear. Way better starts than just lighting them up.

Re: FMIC.... there's a crapload of guys on here including buck who say FMIC is a waste on a K04. Well, they say to go alcohol instead. Problem is, here in Mary's land, E85 is unavailable. So I either need to run Meth, or go FMIC. I've never been a big fan of power adders that "run out." I know religious debate. I do not see NOS, Meth, etc as "cheating" like some folks do, but I would rather have mods that add power that are available at any time in any amount and do not need to be replenished. Just my personal opinion.

Also for the FMIC... I know search search but we have what three options on Gen2... CP-E, CorkSport, Ultimate Racing? Is the ATP thing really a fourth option? Do all 4 of these do away with the structural pieces of the front bumper? (meaning there basically is no front bumper) ?

[9900rpm]

Entered this one late.

22x8" slicks is probably why you're blowing holes through the tranny in the Neon. 22x8 is small, even for an all motor car. There is not really a sidewall on those, unless they were 22x8x13, which still doesn't have a crazy sidewall. Slicks are supposed to have a decent amount of sidewall, to absorb the initial shock. I bet if the same car was running 23.5, or even 24.5x8x?? slicks, the tranny would have survived. I come from the all motor Honda world, and have used all different slicks/broken different parts. Also, the MS3 transmission is much stronger, and has LSD. Less proned to heat related failure. In regards to the "flex" that's necessary to keep all parts intact, even if you went with a totally solid billet RMM on the MS3, your motor will still rock slightly. The driver and tranny mounts are soft rubber, and do flex. Just because the RMM part of the motor isn't moving, the other mounting points still will. You'll be ok.

The MS3 can run 26x9x15 (I will check on the exact size, but if my memory serves me correct, this is it) Hoosier QTP's on Mustang V6 wheels. I have, and they work. Clears all of the body, suspension and brakes with no grinding or rubbing.

On the street, really just go with a different tire. Mazda used the Dunlops because they were cheap. Compared to any other ultra performance summer tire, they ranked the worst. Just going to a nicer tire is a night and day difference.

FMIC and crash bar. Ultimate Racing's FMIC has an optional crash bar. Given this thing probably won't save you from a hard crash, it does keep the front of the car rigid (MS3's have 2 frame rails going to a composite (plastic) radiator support. Without a crash bar or some sort, I can see the engine bay flexing under hard turns, or at least some kind of distortion. Any FMIC that leaves the stock front crash bar in isn't going to be enough. I ran the UR FMIC, with optional crash bar, and with meth. Everything was kosher even on the hottest days.

Not sure if the AP can do this, and not sure if it was posted here or not, but you may be able to just cut, or retard some timing in the first 2 gears at WOT. Trying to keep boost low in 1st and 2nd probably isn't going to happen with the small K04's quick spool, and the stock boost solenoid's capacity. By retarding some timing, you can artificially "slow down" the car.

[Onelovesoccer]

Originally Posted by 9900rpm Mazda used the Dunlops because they were cheap. Compared to any other ultra performance summer tire, they ranked the worst. Just going to a nicer tire is a night and day difference.

funny you say that. i went into the dealer a few months back for some routine stuff and they saw i needed new tires (which i did). those idiots tried to get me to buy the stock tires for $380/tire with the forth one free. needless to say, i laughed and said hell no.

then i got a survey in my email and i bitched them out for crappy ethics. i said they know that that price is WAY too high for that tire and they probably get away with it from unsuspecting/uneducated customers. but either way, it's unethical and ridiculous.

few days later, i get a call from the service department director apologizing and asking me the price i had seen for a similar tire. i told him i could get star specs on tirerack for $200 each and those are on a whole other level from the stock tires. he agreed and said they clearly need to update their pricing. he then offered to do a full detail for free for my inconvenience. i said absofuckinglotely you can. but still...

[jeopardy98]

I have a street tune and then a drag map. My 1st is limited to 45% and 55% in 2nd. LC is set to 2750 and FFS at 5000. It works great for street tires and as soon as I get some drag slicks I'll have to raise my LC and possibly some throttle in 1st and 2nd but for stockers it works pretty well. I can cut a 2.0 60" with this setup.

[fortressofcomfort]

I cut a 2.0 60' time as well tonight with nothing more than intake and a tune on stock tires/stock air pressures. The LC/FFS/APP tables can be set to work together to give very consistent runs.

See timeslips here:

ECU tuning specifically for running the 1/4 mile

[Bosox]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Sure, but my point is I personally am willing to accept any electronic nannies in order to help the black booger get off the line. We all know 1st gear is miserable in this car so to me it doesn't seem like an unreasonable question to ask, 'is there any help out there for reducing this problem.' As an aside I checked Tire Rack and it seems 225s are the widest we can go on these 7.5" rims. Perhaps stickier tires like Michelin Pilot Sports would help but I doubt switching to these would help as much as to the degree my 1st gear traction fails. Would suspension changes help, like perhaps a thinner front anti-roll bar, a thicker rear anti-roll bar or stiffer springs/shocks all the way around? I'm not getting any wheel hop so I don't think stiffer motor mounts are the answer.

I am not sure about 225's being the widest we can go. I am pretty certain we can go 235.

[Onelovesoccer]

i have 235s on my stock wheels. fits fine.

[BigRedSpecial]

You Pus have 7.5" wheels so you're probably ok with 235s (although it's pushing it). Us juans only have 7" wheels stock. Of course my RX8s are 8" so that solves that problem.

[Onelovesoccer]

correct, pus can get away with the 235 on stock wheels since we have the extra .5"

[Darth_Nuruodo]

Yep, 235s are what's getting put on when I finally run the tread off of the stockers. I have yet to see anyone having a problem with them on the 7.5" rim. Did see some attempted and failed 245s, but that's just getting cocky; though, if you have an 8" rim you should go 245 then.

[ledfootrob]

subbed

[Voltwings]

I've had 3 sets of 245s on the front (granted im stock height). A set of michellen, Dunlop, and currently a set of nittos. Fit fine, no issues.

[SWAY]

Originally Posted by Darth_Nuruodo Yep, 235s are what's getting put on when I finally run the tread off of the stockers. I have yet to see anyone having a problem with them on the 7.5" rim. Did see some attempted and failed 245s, but that's just getting cocky; though, if you have an 8" rim you should go 245 then.

I'm on 8.75" wheels and 235s

tappin on the aokp running Nexus 7