Further Lower Under Hood Temps / BAT's

[xb2ms3]

Mine wanted to live, so I decided to stab it with a screwdriver till it let go.

Came out one piece at a time.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by SLOWHATCH Ok, so not sure why I hadn't done this sooner and have not seen where it has been pointed out in any other thread. So chime in if you think this is a good idea or if you have already done it to your Gen2. You will need the necessary tools to remove your intake: These will vary depending on your set up. The only other things needed: 10mm ratcheting wrench or socket 2 zip ties Since running a cold air box with my CS SRI this piece has became even more useless then it was when running just the CS SRI. Those of us who have a TMIC need all the airflow we can get under the hood to keep things cool. This should help even more so. Above the Radiator there is additional piping that runs along the top of the radiator to direct airflow to the OEM airbox, but it seems to limit the total amount of air coming in. Took around 10 minutes to remove this piece. 1.Undo two 10mm bolts / screws from center area under the hood above radiator. Remove hoses from the holders. Move the air duct up and down to loosen from where it connects to the car and slide it and shift it to the driver's side of the car. Removing the dip stick allowed more clearance along with making sure the piece did not get hung up on any wires and hoses. From the larger opening of the smiley I could see light coming in and I could put my hand in there and feel the openings where the air can now come in where it was previously blocked and leading it to the front of the intake manifold and under the tmic area. Should make a good bit of difference in under hood temps and hopefully BAT's. On to the pics so you have a better idea of what I'm talking about.

mk, i quoted you to snag the pics so hopefully this works. After doing this mod today i noticed that i only have the female sensor end from pic #1 in place, the male end is absolutely nowhere to be found... anyone know what that sensor is??

[fortressofcomfort]

Here's my $.02

There's so much going on under that hood, as far as airflow, turbulence, etc after you get up to a certain mph that's there's not much any of us can do to change it or affect it. Say, at 40mph, there's so much air moving around up and down, left and right, swirling, leaving out the side, leaving out the cowl, leaving out bottom, etc.; I'm thinking opening up an extra 10% of airflow over the aluminum engine block and intake manifold aren't going to magically drop your BATs more than a few percent if you are lucky; and that would be after driving for 1/4 of a mile.

The problem is, the intake manifold and engine block/head are as prone, or more prone to heat soak than anything else under that hood. Expecting the temp of any of those pieces to drop by even 1*F during a 0-60 run by opening up that slot versus leaving it shut is crazy. Remember every 11*F = 1% gain in hp.

We all know that when you sit still at a stop light in 100*F weather that IATs go up big time. So if I launch, even just spiritedly, getting a smooth flow of ambient air around that cone filter, even if only for 4 or 5 seconds, is going to help on the order of 10s of degrees F immediately, up until about 40mph when, again, none of us can control shit after that point. None of this "free aerodynamic redirecting using reused stock intake parts" is going to make much difference.

As far as BATs, BATs are simply a function of IAT * boost * some constant. PV = nRT. The amount of heat picked up by boosted air passing over the intake manifold could surely be significant (this is why most modern N/A cars use plastic intake manifolds, to reject heat even more), but are we going to affect the WHOLE MASS of the intake manifold on a simple launch from 0-60 ? I just can't see it so.

Ever seen the bottom of a million dollar exotic car? They line the thing with a flat sheet of something so that the air coming into the engine bay is actually aerodynamically flowed through the rest of the car, probably past various radiators and intercoolers, finally exiting just prior to the rear brake rotors where yes 200*F air can cool an 800*F brake rotor. Probably a team of engineers making more money than any of us could dream of came up with that shit. I'm talking Ferraris, Bugattis, etc. I doubt our $24k Mazdas have undergone such overthought in terms of aerodynamic flow through the engine bay.

Besides, if it was more efficient to blow air right onto the intake manifold, why didn't the factory just do that in the first place? Cars are machines. All machines are based around a set of requirements and COMPROMISES. We know why the big heavy airbox is there from the factory.... to quell noise. So we all yank that out, put up with extra noise, and enjoy the extra 10hp. But why would Mazda go to extra lengths to purposely suck air from in from that fascia slot than from the surrounding engine bay? I'd have to think someone got approval to add $10 to each car for gathering most of the intake air from the fascia slot instead of leaving the fascia slot just open to blow air across the motor.

There's more to a 2.04 60' time than just traction y'know.

Bottom line, without numbers we are all in the dark. And let's stop using dynos as our medium of testing? Let's get someone with some god damned temp probes in there and do some heat soaked accel runs, rolling starts, high speed runs, etc. You know test the cars in an environment closer to what they will actually operate in.

So there's some $0.02, it could be right, it could be wrong, and I've surely pissed off the TL;DR crowd with THIS baby.

[Bosox]

Okay... A few days ago I changed my MT fluid and noticed this. I had not seen it when I installed my SRI. I took this picture and posted it in shout and got all kinds of shit for asking about it. At least now I know I am not the only one.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Bosox Okay... A few days ago I changed my MT fluid and noticed this. I had not seen it when I installed my SRI. I took this picture and posted it in shout and got all kinds of shit for asking about it. At least now I know I am not the only one.

Just be careful those stock tabs/notches are shite and one day after a hard run you'll find that little piece of intake tubing at the bottom of the engine bay.

You can reverse the way the piping fits the fascia intake; it'll still fit the tabs and shit and it'll point damn near dead on to the cone filter. A little super glue and mine has not fallen off yet (and I've had my car up to very high speeds).

So fix it up and then run some logs and tell the others you are getting IATs within a few degrees of ambient (after you heat soak a while and then take off from a stop/red light of course)

[Bosox]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Just be careful those stock tabs/notches are shite and one day after a hard run you'll find that little piece of intake tubing at the bottom of the engine bay. You can reverse the way the piping fits the fascia intake; it'll still fit the tabs and shit and it'll point damn near dead on to the cone filter. A little super glue and mine has not fallen off yet (and I've had my car up to very high speeds). So fix it up and then run some logs and tell the others you are getting IATs within a few degrees of ambient (after you heat soak a while and then take off from a stop/red light of course)

Right now I am dealing with high BAT's which is fucking up my tune. I am a lot less concerned with the IAT's so I am thinking I should pull it all out.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Bosox Right now I am dealing with high BAT's which is fucking up my tune. I am a lot less concerned with the IAT's so I am thinking I should pull it all out.

High bats = too much boost after 5k and/or high IATs and/or insufficient charge cooling. Cooling your intake manifold 1*F isn't gonna solve your problem bruh.

Again PV = nRT. Your BATs are directly proportional to your IATs.

[SLOWHATCH]

@Voltwings

Not sure what you are referring to. What sensor?

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by SLOWHATCH @Voltwings Not sure what you are referring to. What sensor?

Picture 1 smack dab in the middle of the photo theres a grey "plug," my bad, at any rate my car only seems to have the female side haha.

So heres some hard numbers for you guys, i have an ultra gauge so this is every day live data im going off of not random data logs.

Being in South Houston my IATs were typically +~5 ambient in the 80*s and ~7-10 in the 90*s, and coolant temp is typically always about 192.x


Today with it being 90 outside i saw IATs of ~93.x and coolant temp of 186.x I'd say this is a pretty effective means of cooling.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Picture 1 smack dab in the middle of the photo theres a grey "plug," my bad, at any rate my car only seems to have the female side haha. So heres some hard numbers for you guys, i have an ultra gauge so this is every day live data im going off of not random data logs. Being in South Houston my IATs were typically +~5 ambient in the 80*s and ~7-10 in the 90*s, and coolant temp is typically always about 192.x Today with it being 90 outside i saw IATs of ~93.x and coolant temp of 186.x I'd say this is a pretty effective means of cooling.

Do me one favor please. Stop for like 3 minutes. Heat soak it. Then take off. Give me your IATs 3 seconds after you take off. Then again at 6 seconds.

I also have an old analog temp probe thingy that can read 4 different temps at once. I might whip that out.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Do me one favor please. Stop for like 3 minutes. Heat soak it. Then take off. Give me your IATs 3 seconds after you take off. Then again at 6 seconds. I also have an old analog temp probe thingy that can read 4 different temps at once. I might whip that out.

mk im doing brakes right now so it will probably more in the evening when i do this so it may or may not be cooler. Also i wouldnt say i knew how fast they dropped before but i may be able to tell if theyre dropping quicker now. The road im going to brake the pads in on has a stop sign maybe every 50 yards or so, so we'll see how this goes.

[Bosox]

So I re-read this today from having read it last night. I am not as certain about removing it as I was last night but if I do not remove it I will try to manipulate it to blow more toward the intake.

For those who have removed this piece and are seeing improvements, did you also remover th cowling on the rear of the engine bay?

[Red]

After looking into the side of the engine bay I noticed it only has one electric cooling fan and the other side looks like it has vents that open when air is getting pushed in. That's crazy. Guess that one fan can cool off the radiator pretty nicely.
Anywho, I removed the air intake shroud and ill see if it helps out any.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Red After looking into the side of the engine bay I noticed it only has one electric cooling fan and the other side looks like it has vents that open when air is getting pushed in. That's crazy. Guess that one fan can cool off the radiator pretty nicely. Anywho, I removed the air intake shroud and ill see if it helps out any.

Voltwings.. I'm not trying to disprove anything... I really want to know the answer. I've done similar experiments on other cars and the results have been mostly.... inconclusive. I would imagine at a steady speed that everything under the hood reaches a certain stable degree over ambient. It's the stopping and starting in hot weather that everyone hates. I mean, I guess you hate it. Turbo car + hot day = shite. Now imagine if you had an auto tranny behind that thing ?

On a slight derailment.... why are there no controls (Red) in ATR to turn on the fan at a very low temp? I'd like, in a track map, to just run the fan basically constantly, or at least at underhood temps > 120*F or so.

[Voltwings]

Oh no by all means i'm aware that this is a factual forum, "it feels fast" doesn't mean anything unless backed up with numbers, i take no offense to your "skepticism" as soon as Brake check calls me back (had to have the rotors machined) ill be all over getting some harder numbers for you guys.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Oh no by all means i'm aware that this is a factual forum, "it feels fast" doesn't mean anything unless backed up with numbers, i take no offense to your "skepticism" as soon as Brake check calls me back (had to have the rotors machined) ill be all over getting some harder numbers for you guys.

I'll try to do the same thing.

Let's say I have 4 "probes" that are basically little 3mm barrels of metal attached to leads.

#1 I could obviously dangle in front of the outlet of the super glued tube dude. This would be convection (air contacting metal; I would expect this to be ambient or within a couple degrees).

#2 I could tape? to the cone air filter, maybe 90* out of the natural flow of air from the "duct". This metal on metal would be what induction (metal on metal)? I would expect this to be 5-10* higher than #1 because underhood temps will eventually have its effects on the metal of the cone air filter

#2.5 is virtual... it is the IAT sensor on our APs

#3 I could dangle at the inlet at the fascia (convection again) This better read ambient.

#4 I could tape? to the front of the intake manifold, where the fascia would blow air onto. This would be another metal to metal connection. I would expect this to fluctuate somewhere between the current temperature of the coolant (195 *F) and the current boosted air temps (5-8* over IAT up to god only know how much boost you are running

#4.5 would be virtual.... our boosted air temp reading from the AP.

My hypothesis is that most temps at all points are the same except for #4 which will be WAY up there. I could drive around as is, doing heat soaked and non heat soaked trials, and then I could completely block off the super dooper intake pooper and see what happens. I guess a third trial would be to cut my fascia intake all the fuck up but I have a hunch, for my style of stop and go driving and waiting in pit lanes, that leaving the fascia free to flow air into the vicinity of the cone air filter will be superior and I don't want to go on the wanted-to-bys looking for a stock fascia intake.

What you think?

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort I'll try to do the same thing. Let's say I have 4 "probes" that are basically little 3mm barrels of metal attached to leads. #1 I could obviously dangle in front of the outlet of the super glued tube dude. This would be convection (air contacting metal). #2 I could tape? to the cone air filter, maybe 90* out of the natural flow of air from the "duct". This metal on metal would be what induction (metal on metal)? #3 I could dangle at the inlet at the fascia (convection again) #4 I could tape? to the front of the intake manifold, where the fascia would blow air onto. This would be another metal to metal connection. What you think?

i agree with getting readings on 2 and 3, 1 im not quite sure what you mean so i have no comment. With 4, the ultragauge and accessport read from the temp probe in the MAP sensor, so it would be interesting to see how differing exterior temps affect the interior temps where the sensor reads you know.

[SLOWHATCH]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort I'll try to do the same thing. Let's say I have 4 "probes" that are basically little 3mm barrels of metal attached to leads. #1 I could obviously dangle in front of the outlet of the super glued tube dude. This would be convection (air contacting metal; I would expect this to be ambient or within a couple degrees). #2 I could tape? to the cone air filter, maybe 90* out of the natural flow of air from the "duct". This metal on metal would be what induction (metal on metal)? I would expect this to be 5-10* higher than #1 because underhood temps will eventually have its effects on the metal of the cone air filter #2.5 is virtual... it is the IAT sensor on our APs #3 I could dangle at the inlet at the fascia (convection again) This better read ambient. #4 I could tape? to the front of the intake manifold, where the fascia would blow air onto. This would be another metal to metal connection. I would expect this to fluctuate somewhere between the current temperature of the coolant (195 *F) and the current boosted air temps (5-8* over IAT up to god only know how much boost you are running #4.5 would be virtual.... our boosted air temp reading from the AP. My hypothesis is that most temps at all points are the same except for #4 which will be WAY up there. I could drive around as is, doing heat soaked and non heat soaked trials, and then I could completely block off the super dooper intake pooper and see what happens. I guess a third trial would be to cut my fascia intake all the fuck up but I have a hunch, for my style of stop and go driving and waiting in pit lanes, that leaving the fascia free to flow air into the vicinity of the cone air filter will be superior and I don't want to go on the wanted-to-bys looking for a stock fascia intake. What you think?

I think that if you are already using a cold air box on your sri or are running a CAI there should be no downside to this. My car rarely heat soaks with the type of driving I do so it's a win win for me.

In normal every day driving my bat's are usually 10-15* over ambient. Today after removing that ducting and the foam behind it, my bats were steadily 8-12* over ambient.

Now I have done several things to combat heat soak including

1. Raising my ETS TMIC as far as I could (roughly .5")
2. Removed the weather stripping on the hood cowl.
3. JBR Intake manifold TIG
4. Coolant By-pass mod
5. This one doesn't matter but I run WMI and only makes a difference when in boost.
6. I can't think of anything else

[Sid3wayS]

@SLOWHATCH
Not to go off subject here but how did you raise the tmic? Did you just use washers on the underside?

[fortressofcomfort]

I still say the BATs over IATs is way more of a function of the ideal gas law than any amount of charge cooling you could possibly and practically put into these cars.

This is why E85 is such a popular option. It changes the balance of the ideal gas law and makes BATs basically a non-function.

Once again: PV = nRT. Sorry if you missed physics.

Put it to you this way. Flash a stage 1 (16psi) map on your car. I bet your BATs never get more than 15-20* over your IATs. Now flash your own wack-o map (we all have one) that runs 19psi. Now your BATs are 30-40* over IATs near the top of the rev range. This is because we are pushing the K04 to the brink of its efficiency.

The amount you compress the air is the #1 indicator of BATs. Yes IATs and cooling the charge help absolutlely but you will always be fighting your BATs when you push the turbo outside its efficiency range.

$.02

Gotta find that old proby thing.

I still say this whole thread has alot to do with how you drive your car.

[danieldolina70]

Mine has been off for awile,but I run E-85 mix so I dont hafta worry about high BAT

[xb2ms3]

Thats a pretty good idea to raise the tmic.

I also saw that someone put heat reflective tape under the tmic.

I think i'm gonna try both. Summer is getting close...

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by xb2ms3 Thats a pretty good idea to raise the tmic. I also saw that someone put heat reflective tape under the tmic. I think i'm gonna try both. Summer is getting close...

i tried that... twice haha dont get the autozone brand shit, it melts the adhesive on the tape and just leaves you with a giant mess to clean up.

Also @fortressofcomfort it got later than i had hoped by the time i was done and i wasnt able to get concrete numbers for you but i did do a small test. in 90* ambients i let the car idle till IATs were about 110. Drove down my street (200 meters or so) and they had cooled to maybe 96* going 25 mph 3rd gear. stopped at the stop sign, IATS back up to 99, about 20 seconds later of what i would call normal driving (however according to my friends i drive like a grandma) i was back down to 5 over ambient, and another 10 - 15 seconds showed 3 over ambient. While this mod may not cool any faster, as this may or may not have just proven, it has proven to lower my average IAT, as well as Coolant temp. Now my ultragauge does not monitor BATs which i know is more so to the point of this thread, however the two are related so lowering one is almost sure to lower the other yes?

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Now my ultragauge does not monitor BATs which i know is more so to the point of this thread, however the two are related so lowering one is almost sure to lower the other yes?

YES! Now we have some numbers to work with. Thank you. It may take me a few days and a roll of duct tape but we'll figure this out once and for all. Based solely on your observations today it further backs up my conclusions found with other cars I've experimented on.... that the results are inconclusive lol (that one way isn't better than the other way, that none of us has any real good idea as to what kind of patterns the air follow under the hood once underway). Thanks man.

[SLOWHATCH]

Originally Posted by Sid3wayS @SLOWHATCH Not to go off subject here but how did you raise the tmic? Did you just use washers on the underside?

One of the pics in the OP shows them pretty good. The one that shows the intake manifold.

Basically some thick washers. Except I had my dad make them at his work on a CNC machine. They are 5 or 6 mm each, cant remember. They were made to fit perfectly over my wheel studs and were previously used as wheel spacers.

I'm attaching a log here to show my bat's vs intake temp. Pretty weak log, but you get the idea. This is after driving the car for about 20 minutes, sat for 20 minutes then cruised 5 minutes to highway with a few stop lights in between. Seems it recovered pretty quick imo, but my results could be skewed by the wmi.

Edit:

I take back the "weak log" statement lol, I guess I just managed to get some grip instead of wheel spin. Attached vd log for pure amusement.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by SLOWHATCH One of the pics in the OP shows them pretty good. The one that shows the intake manifold. Basically some thick washers. Except I had my dad make them at his work on a CNC machine. They are 5 or 6 mm each, cant remember. They were made to fit perfectly over my wheel studs and were previously used as wheel spacers.

Im a drummer, and i used some cymbal felts (for those familiar with drums haha), which are basically felt washers (1" thick" and wrapped them in aluminum tape to keep them from burning. Slightly less elegant but effective for those who don't have access to CNC machinery. A pack will run you like $3 at your music store, ill try to have pics in the AM.

[zedekias]

Originally Posted by Bosox Right now I am dealing with high BAT's which is fucking up my tune. I am a lot less concerned with the IAT's so I am thinking I should pull it all out.

What kind of BAT's are you seeing?

I live in hot ass Dallas, TX and just ordered my Lex tune tonight

[zedekias]

Originally Posted by danieldolina70 Mine has been off for awile,but I run E-85 mix so I dont hafta worry about high BAT

Someone help a noob out.

Does the e85 actually drop BAT? Or does it just make high BAT's irrelevant because of it decreasing the likelihood of knock?

[fortressofcomfort]

Hey all, I've got the entire front clip/headlight assy's, stryofoam shit, etc. off of my car investigating this fucking question. I guarantee you you will be surprised at some of my findings. Let's just say nothing conclusive yet but many many nooks and crevices are to beheld. I have taken over 12 pictures of tubing, the interfaces the tubes see (that you cannot possibly see without taking much of the front clip off), what is there/seen when the tubing is removed, holes you probably never thought existed, etc. Stay tuned... I think this one will be good. Here's a hint.... the solution involves yellow sidewalk chalk from my daughter's toolbox.

[Bosox]

Originally Posted by zedekias What kind of BAT's are you seeing? I live in hot ass Dallas, TX and just ordered my Lex tune tonight

I guess he is going to be helping us both with them

[danieldolina70]

Originally Posted by zedekias Someone help a noob out. Does the e85 actually drop BAT? Or does it just make high BAT's irrelevant because of it decreasing the likelihood of knock?

From what i've been told high BAT will take away some HP but running a E-85 mix will let me increase timing ,so it makes up for the higher BAT,,

[Voltron]

This thread took off lol. Anyways, it seems theres alot of different opinions on whether or not this actually works or not. In any case, mines off like I had posted, and I seemed to have lowered my bats at cruising. In any event, there's a e85 station in NY about 10 minutes from me, and a meth kit calling my name sometime this month.

[Voltron]

@fortressofcomfort, damn dude, you are one technical ass motherfucker, you made me
Second guess pulling that shit off lol. But it's staying off cause I'll call it weight reduction.

@Bosox I left that piece on when I did my Sri, and found it on my undertray when I changed my oil haha. And btw, I was lookin at your sig, what's all this mazdaspeed stuff you haz? Body kit? Wing? I'm curious. Pics please. Thanks.

@xb2ms3 Dougie.....I haz idea. come over tonight, Ill hold it and you punt mine across the lot towards the Evo that haunts me.

[Bosox]

@Bosox I left that piece on when I did my Sri, and found it on my undertray when I changed my oil haha. And btw, I was lookin at your sig, what's all this mazdaspeed stuff you haz? Body kit? Wing? I'm curious. Pics please. Thanks.

I was seeing how long it would be before someone noticed that

[btstarcher]

Originally Posted by Bosox @Bosox I left that piece on when I did my Sri, and found it on my undertray when I changed my oil haha. And btw, I was lookin at your sig, what's all this mazdaspeed stuff you haz? Body kit? Wing? I'm curious. Pics please. Thanks. I was seeing how long it would be before someone noticed that

Were you also seeinig how long it would take for someone to notice that you mentioned yourself? JW...

LOL nevermind I saw my own fail...

[Voltron]

Ok, so I noticed. Pics. @Bosox

[Bosox]

Originally Posted by voltron Ok, so I noticed. Pics. @Bosox

MazdaUSA :: MAZDASPEED3 Gallery

[Voltron]

Meh comes up blank.

[SLOWHATCH]

Originally Posted by voltron Meh comes up blank.

Same here.

[fortressofcomfort]

OK, here comes mr. Empirical.

I have taken 32 pictures of me dismantling my car and showing you every single "over radiator/condensor" passthrough in detail. I have lots to add (and still not much conclusion as I'm still testing) but if you are tracking this thread go ahead and look at these. Explanations of the pics will be forthcoming.

Thanks.