Gain with just an AP

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

People don't understand the term "bang for the buck"- that intrinsically involves price in the equation.

I'm sure there are decent gains to be had with tune only but lets not forget an AP is $600, unless you are factoring in a custom tune which is more $$$.

Look I have nothing against the AP, I bought it as one of my first mods along with the intake. Intakes have long been known to be an excellent performers due to the restrictive stock intake on the MS3 platform.

[Pseud0logik]

Sure we do. Performance+features/$$$ = bang for the buck

Intake: 11HP+no features/$175 = low bang for the buck
AP: 40HP+many features/$550 = high bang for the buck

It's simple math.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Originally Posted by Pseud0logik Sure we do. Performance+features/$$$ = bang for the buck Intake: 11HP+no features/$175 = low bang for the buck AP: 40HP+many features/$550 = high bang for the buck It's simple math.

AP yields 40hp on a bone stock car with an OTS Map?

[Acedelgado]

Got my AP for well under $600, hell, well under $550. I'd suggest PM'ing a few vendors on the boards. Hint: they like it when you're VIP.

But I agree, best bang-for-your-buck mod. AP + HPFP = must have if you mod your speed. Period. Flash while stock and get more performance and better fuel economy, flash for your mods, keep your car running safe when getting anywhere near full bolt-on, economy mode, safe mode, valet mode, launch control, flat shifting, dabble in tuning yourself, use it to tune with the many reputable tuners on here...it goes on and on.

You really can't argue best-bang-for-the-buck, it just lets you do wayyy too much compared to anything else you buy that's just going to sit there. Much more versatile than any other mod you can get. It's an amazing device, I was super impressed by the V1 years ago when my buddy bought one for his WRX. The V2 is amazing and when I found out that Cobb makes them for MS3's it made me giddy like a school girl.

[bigriver]

Bang for Bucks

In Living Color - Jim Carey does Joey Buttafuoco, Amy Fisher bang for you bucks seminar - YouTube

In Living Color - Jim Carey does Joey Buttafuoco, Amy Fisher bang for you bucks seminar - YouTube

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Originally Posted by Acedelgado Got my AP for well under $600, hell, well under $550. I'd suggest PM'ing a few vendors on the boards. Hint: they like it when you're VIP. But I agree, best bang-for-your-buck mod. AP + HPFP = must have if you mod your speed. Period. Flash while stock and get more performance and better fuel economy, flash for your mods, keep your car running safe when getting anywhere near full bolt-on, economy mode, safe mode, valet mode, launch control, flat shifting, dabble in tuning yourself, use it to tune with the many reputable tuners on here...it goes on and on. You really can't argue best-bang-for-the-buck, it just lets you do wayyy too much compared to anything else you buy that's just going to sit there. Much more versatile than any other mod you can get. It's an amazing device, I was super impressed by the V1 years ago when my buddy bought one for his WRX. The V2 is amazing and when I found out that Cobb makes them for MS3's it made me giddy like a school girl.

I had a V1 AP back in '04 for my STi. The V2 has come a long way indeed.

Originally Posted by bigriver Bang for Bucks In Living Color - Jim Carey does Joey Buttafuoco, Amy Fisher bang for you bucks seminar - YouTube

lol- that show was a blast.

[Pseud0logik]

Originally Posted by Bubba Ho-Tep AP yields 40hp on a bone stock car with an OTS Map?

No, but the title of the thread isn't "Gain with just an AP OTS map". For most of us, the OTS maps are just a baseline, a place to start.

This is really all a matter of opinion. For you, the intake may have been the best HP/$$$ you spent. For many of us, it wasn't. I know my car drove like shit with just an SRI, but once I got a stage1 tune that was designed for my intake, it drove smoother than it did stock.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Originally Posted by Pseud0logik No, but the title of the thread isn't "Gain with just an AP OTS map". For most of us, the OTS maps are just a baseline, a place to start. This is really all a matter of opinion. For you, the intake may have been the best HP/$$$ you spent. For many of us, it wasn't. I know my car drove like shit with just an SRI, but once I got a stage1 tune that was designed for my intake, it drove smoother than it did stock.

I installed my intake, took it for a test drive- brought the car back and immediately installed AP (stage 1, 93). However from the short time I did drive it it seemed fine- just didn't have a lot of time with it.

No agreement whether the AP is worth it. Just considerably more expensive than an intake which (I previously though) was known to yield more whp.

[Acedelgado]

Originally Posted by Bubba Ho-Tep I installed my intake, took it for a test drive- brought the car back and immediately installed AP (stage 1, 93). However from the short time I did drive it it seemed fine- just didn't have a lot of time with it. No agreement whether the AP is worth it. Just considerably more expensive than an intake which (I previously though) was known to yield more whp.

You done any logs yet? I got my AP and intake at the same time, but I decided to flash stock Stage 1 and log first. For the most part I stayed over 1600 FP but a couple of times I dipped below for a split second, including 1 time into the high 1200's. Which is definitely no bueno, jumped right on to the Edge backorder AT Internals list. You can still outrun the stock CDFP on genpu's with minimal mods. Sucks.

[doctavus]

Sounds like they need to re-write the "guide to your mazdaspeed3"

[Pseud0logik]

Originally Posted by Acedelgado You done any logs yet? I got my AP and intake at the same time, but I decided to flash stock Stage 1 and log first. For the most part I stayed over 1600 FP but a couple of times I dipped below for a split second, including 1 time into the high 1200's. Which is definitely no bueno, jumped right on to the Edge backorder AT Internals list. You can still outrun the stock CDFP on genpu's with minimal mods. Sucks.

There is a "safe mode" map designed to run within the limits of the stock pump that you can run in the meantime until your internals come in, FYI.

[Acedelgado]

Originally Posted by Pseud0logik There is a "safe mode" map designed to run within the limits of the stock pump that you can run in the meantime until your internals come in, FYI.

Yup. On it.

[zpele]

Originally Posted by doctavus Sounds like they need to re-write the "guide to your mazdaspeed3"

Those guides are meant as a launching point not a be all and end all.

Anytime you increase the air going into the engine the fuel needs to be increased as well. The AP lets you finetune everything that is going on in the engine and it lets you monitor shit as well.

It is actually debateable whether you should even get an intake until BT.

If I were to do it all over again I would go with this mod path:

AP
HPFP Internals
Motor Mounts all around
FMIC
GTX3076R with supporting mods (including whale penis)

[bigriver]

Originally Posted by zpele It is actually debateable whether you should even get an intake until BT.

Awesome. This is partly why I demodded my intake/tip. I'm trying to figure this out for myself. Lex has stated that at a certain point, the stock turbo becomes the choke point. It would be interesting to verify if an intake is not really needed with stock turbo if power has been maxed out with a custom tune and turbo back mods. I know this sounds crazy but some folks have made good power on stock air box. But obviously guys that just run ots maps will have better results with intake/tip.

@gitarpik
@rfinkle2

[Pseud0logik]

Man @bigriver is making me want to sell my intake. That obnoxious sucking sound gets old sometimes.

[bigriver]

Originally Posted by Pseud0logik Man @bigriver is making me want to sell my intake. That obnoxious sucking sound gets old sometimes.

LOL. Amen Brother! I also hate driving granny style when the popo is around so they dont hear the sucking sound, haha. Idk, maybe try it and see if you like it. = ) but dont sell the intake. I'm keeping mine just in case.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by zpele AP is the single largest gain over any mod...

Right. The thing is, anything else before an AP is just dangerous. I think @Onelovesoccer put it that way, and its true.

Hell, I have an entire thread showing how a Cobb SF intake and TIH, along with the Cobb stage 1 OTS 93 octane map, was enough to push (pull?) the fuel pressure not just low but very much dangerously zoom zoom kaboom low (703psi). Search titles for "Agile Automotive Performance" and you will see real data (dyno pulls, picutres, and AP logs) documenting this.

There are also several horror stories and at least one member who blew a fist sized hole in the side of the block.

Not sure how much more evidence is required for us to safely say that AP should be your first mod.

[zpele]

Lol when popo are near I just turn my car off. 500rpm makes them raise their eyebrows at me.

[bigriver]

Originally Posted by zpele Lol when popo are near I just turn my car off. 500rpm makes them raise their eyebrows at me.

Haha! Aw man my push button on/off would be great for that! I could roll in neutral with engine off.

[Ray Danger 2020]

Originally Posted by doctavus Over $4 here in Texas now, /sigh

I live in Pittsburgh...

87 Octane = 3.89
89 Octane = 3.99
93 Octane = 4.19

Why they can't simply go in $.10 increments is beyond me. But I suppose it doesn't really matter. It would be expensive either way. X__x

[Ray Danger 2020]

On an unrelated topic to the original topic of this page. Better to buy FP internals or just buy the whole thing from CP-e for a shit-ton of $$$$. Opinions?

[Pseud0logik]

Originally Posted by Ray Danger 2020 On an unrelated topic to the original topic of this page. Better to buy FP internals or just buy the whole thing from CP-e for a shit-ton of $$$$. Opinions?

Just buy internals unless you are rich and have no idea how to read directions. Also, stop asking off-topic newbie questions unless you want to start collecting groans.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Originally Posted by fortressofcomfort Right. The thing is, anything else before an AP is just dangerous. I think @Onelovesoccer put it that way, and its true. Hell, I have an entire thread showing how a Cobb SF intake and TIH, along with the Cobb stage 1 OTS 93 octane map, was enough to push (pull?) the fuel pressure not just low but very much dangerously zoom zoom kaboom low (703psi). Search titles for "Agile Automotive Performance" and you will see real data (dyno pulls, picutres, and AP logs) documenting this. There are also several horror stories and at least one member who blew a fist sized hole in the side of the block. Not sure how much more evidence is required for us to safely say that AP should be your first mod.

Thankfully I haven't seen that on mine yet. I've never seen anything below 1600 at WOT, usually in the 1,700's.

[Ray Danger 2020]

Originally Posted by Pseud0logik Just buy internals unless you are rich and have no idea how to read directions. Also, stop asking off-topic newbie questions unless you want to start collecting groans.

I'm sorry

I'm not rich and I can read instructions. I just don't like tinkering with things I'm not to familiar with is all. If it's not hard I'm all for doing it cheaper. Any particular brand better than the other?

[Pseud0logik]

Originally Posted by Ray Danger 2020 I'm sorry I'm not rich and I can read instructions. I just don't like tinkering with things I'm not to familiar with is all. If it's not hard I'm all for doing it cheaper. Any particular brand better than the other?

It's cool, but it's in your best interests to search, read the stickies, donate and make quality posts if you want to get the most out of your experience on these forums. Autotech is a popular brand around here, those would probably be your best bet. PM @eric@edgeautosport for details on them. There are plenty of guides (search) on how to install them that can help make you familiar, I suggest you read as many as you can find before you even start. It's not a difficult job but you'll have problems if you don't do it right.

[radioflyer]

Originally Posted by IPuOnU But I thought HID's got me mad horsepower?

Na brah, its all about the type R sticker. That's like going BT right there.

[Dr. Speed]

I have a question and this seems to be the best thread to post it on...

What experience is there with tuning/being tuned with just an AP + internals? It's been mentioned that Bucker got someone 40+ peak whp on an otherwise stock car, but no other specific experiences. What gains have been seen? (peak gains and drivability/under-curve-area) I'm sure it's a fairly common thing to do for those of us who can't afford everything at once... I'd just like to know what the typical experience is with this.

I'm mentioning several of the MSF tuners and I hope they don't mind sharing their experience in an effort to persuade brownies that an AP/internals/tune is in fact the best first power mod.

@atvfreek; @Bucker; @rfinkle2; @phate; @Lex; @RichieRichness;

[atvfreek]

With just a tune, you can easily gain 30+ hp, and that is without internals. With internals you can push a little higher boost in the midrange and make additional tq and then carry out the boost as far as you can which will give a lot of area under the curve

[Darth_Nuruodo]

A local just got a conservative dyno tune for just for drivability on a bone stock car and gained ~20whp and tons of room under the curve. There's more room for more power there, but like I said this was a conservative tune. Add internals and you can do an e85 tune and throw a lot more timing at the car and gain much more power.

[Snap Off]

This is my car vs another MS3 same dyno day same year cars.
He had a sri but otherwise stock
I have AP sri/tip ots tune with a small timing bump 16.5 psi on 93.

[scubasteve711]

Originally Posted by Lex A proper tune for this car will get you more bang for the buck than any other bolt on modification at any current level of modification and the same applies to otherwise stock cars.

Originally Posted by atvfreek With just a tune, you can easily gain 30+ hp, and that is without internals. With internals you can push a little higher boost in the midrange and make additional tq and then carry out the boost as far as you can which will give a lot of area under the curve

I think Lex and freek here it on the head. Right now, I'm just running a conservative self tune based off the latest stage 1 maps, completely stocked out, and the car runs like a raped ape (compared to stock). I am only able to run a peak boost of 17 and I taper to 15 as my stock internals are only content with that. I don't even have timing really tweaked in, set very conservatively. I'll have to do a log before I put everything back on the car! I think the biggest gains are the under the curve power and then the peak numbers get a nice bump due to the stock taper being so aggressive.

[Lex]

It's also really nice to have the tuning in place before putting on bolt on parts. For example, when I tune, I leave headroom in the tune and flexibility such that if a person throws on a TMIC the tune will just take advantage of the extra flow capacity.

[qweedqwag]

Adrian at Cobb told me the stock tune was worth about 19-23 hp and increased boost in to about 16.2 or so, I did make a difference to me, less lag and pulled harder, spins second gear, but he also told me to do internals before I went any further, even before an SRI. Did a bunch of reading here and it sounds like good advice, Cobb guys are pretty knowledgable as well as people here. Read, listen, and learn.

Mike

[RichieRichness]

Originally Posted by Dr. Speed I have a question and this seems to be the best thread to post it on... What experience is there with tuning/being tuned with just an AP + internals? It's been mentioned that Bucker got someone 40+ peak whp on an otherwise stock car, but no other specific experiences. What gains have been seen? (peak gains and drivability/under-curve-area) I'm sure it's a fairly common thing to do for those of us who can't afford everything at once... I'd just like to know what the typical experience is with this. I'm mentioning several of the MSF tuners and I hope they don't mind sharing their experience in an effort to persuade brownies that an AP/internals/tune is in fact the best first power mod. @atvfreek; @Bucker; @rfinkle2; @phate; @Lex; @RichieRichness;

Basically you better fuckin go e85 if it's in your area...shit is Gods gift to Mazdaspeed owners. Minimum 30+ hp 50 tq gains with even a small amount of e85.

[Dr. Speed]

Originally Posted by RichieRichness Basically you better fuckin go e85 if it's in your area...shit is Gods gift to Mazdaspeed owners. Minimum 30+ hp 50 tq gains with even a small amount of e85.

Unfortunately where I am in Canada there isn't any E85... I'll be moving to the US next fall though and E is at the top of my priorities list

[Phoenix]

I've got several E85 stations close to me.

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