Keep stock TMIC and go Meth?

[Floridaspeed]

Hey everyone,

First, thanks for your help with this, much appreciated! I have been reading through the forums for a while today as I am interested in purchasing an upgraded TMIC for my Speed. I live in FL and it is already starting to get hot and with my current mods I figured it was time to start adding some additional cooling to the car.

I was going to go with CS but they are out of stock until April so I went to Edgeautosport and saw that they have a CP-E TMIC for the same price. I of course jumped back on the forums and read through reviews of the CP-E TMIC. It seems like a quality product but It got me thinking if I should just run a meth kit with the stock TMIC?

It doesn't seem like people are getting the advertised gains with the TMIC's. All I've really heard is the car runs more smooth and there is a quicker throttle response. With Meth won't I get decent cooling as well as decent hp gains? Should I also be looking at a step colder plugs at this point?

I am also in the process of being tuned by Bucker! According to the VD I am around 270 at the wheels with my mods below.

Again thanks for the help with this. I just want to be sure that I am spending my $400.00 as effectively as possible.

Cheers,

[SLOWHATCH]

Wmi kit will help more with bat's. But tmic will allow the car to breathe better.

You kinda need both. Although there are a couple other things you can do to keep temps down. Such as the coolant by pass mod and intake manifold tig. My .02

[Broxer]

Meth is going to cool really well with the stock TMIC. When I had my stock TMIC it was dropping my bats by ~40* up to 10 degrees below ambient.

The intercooler isn't going to provide much cooling. In fact i'd say my cp-e intercooler cools worse than the stock tmic under boost... BUT it doesn't heat soak as bad and it takes a long time for it to heat soak. You will also be able to squeeze a little more boost towards redline.

I went with meth b4 IC upgrade. Looking back I would do the same thing again.

[Floridaspeed]

Originally Posted by Broxer Meth is going to cool really well with the stock TMIC. When I had my stock TMIC it was dropping my bats by ~40* up to 10 degrees below ambient. The intercooler isn't going to provide much cooling. In fact i'd say my cp-e intercooler cools worse than the stock tmic under boost... BUT it doesn't heat soak as bad and it takes a long time for it to heat soak. You will also be able to squeeze a little more boost towards redline. I went with meth b4 IC upgrade. Looking back I would do the same thing again.

I appreciate the replies, thank you! I guess it's time to research meth injection.

[Broxer]

One word of advice. Find a place that sells methanol before you buy the kit. if you have to order it the shipping is insanely expensive.

[fortressofcomfort]

Originally Posted by Floridaspeed ... I am also in the process of being tuned by Bucker! According to the VD I am around 270 at the wheels with my mods below.

at time of this post:


CS SRI/TIP//JBR RMM//JBR Bushings//COBB AP//AT Internals//CS RP


My input: Sounds about right when compared to what my car made with the same power mods as you (273whp but it was a fairly cool day and the shop was in the 60F area).

[adlpb]

Originally Posted by Broxer One word of advice. Find a place that sells methanol before you buy the kit. if you have to order it the shipping is insanely expensive.

@Floridaspeed if you live in the Miami area, VP Racing Fuels in Pompano Beach sells 5 gal for $42. I use 100% meth, but if you want to use a mix then just buy some distilled water and use the ratio you want. A lot cheaper than buying the 50/50 mixes online.

[Blackspeed]

The TMIC wont give you peak HP, but you gain a lot under the curve. Your turbo doesnt have to work as hard to hit its targets. They are right about the BAT's not being much better. I lived in Ft Myers and saw nearly identical BAT's with my ETS.

[Floridaspeed]

Originally Posted by adlpb @Floridaspeed if you live in the Miami area, VP Racing Fuels in Pompano Beach sells 5 gal for $42. I use 100% meth, but if you want to use a mix then just buy some distilled water and use the ratio you want. A lot cheaper than buying the 50/50 mixes online.

I'm in the Sarasota area. Do they charge a ton to ship? I guess I could make a trip to Miami to pick some up. Maybe I could show up for an install day

One of my friends mentioned getting meth through eBay, I forget what he called the product name. I'll ask him tomorrow and edit my post.

I am so up in the air with what my next mod should be. TMIC, DP or meth. Although I know I won't make any power a UR CBE is also pulling at my heart strings. Maybe I'll go full TBE then work on cooling. I need a beer LOL!

[Roddiy]

@adlpb

How long does 5 gal of 100% meth last you?

Once I get my AP I suspect meth might be my next step.

Originally Posted by Floridaspeed I'm in the Sarasota area. Do they charge a ton to ship? I guess I could make a trip to Miami to pick some up. Maybe I could show up for an install day One of my friends mentioned getting meth through eBay, I forget what he called the product name. I'll ask him tomorrow and edit my post. I am so up in the air with what my next mod should be. TMIC, DP or meth. Although I know I won't make any power a UR CBE is also pulling at my heart strings. Maybe I'll go full TBE then work on cooling. I need a beer LOL!

Firstly, I only got my UR CBE cause it was a good deal and it was local, that being said, I love the sound(read: makes me jizz), although I wouldnt pay full price for a new one without at least a test pipe first!

[dsmluck]

Go meth. Don't look back. Its a waste of money on the stock K04 to go with an aftermarket TMIC when methanol injection is cheaper and provides better results. Meth will drop your BATs significantly. The stock IC is not a bottleneck. Google the 2008+ WRX intercooler and look at how small that unit is and yet people are putting down 350whp and 400wtq on it.

As for heat soak it is really bad on the MS3 and MS6. The IC sits on top of the engine block and there is very little space between the bottom of the IC and the block. Still meth will help bring down heat soaked temps when on boost and keep you out of the danger zone where even an aftermarket TMIC might not.

Also you can combat heat soak by building a $10 dollar IC sprayer. Cheap and effective. Soak the IC. Let the water evaporate for 30-60 secs and then go do a run. You will be surprised at the power. I did a home depot sprayer on the MS3 and my WRX and it really works.

[adlpb]

Originally Posted by Floridaspeed I'm in the Sarasota area. Do they charge a ton to ship? I guess I could make a trip to Miami to pick some up. Maybe I could show up for an install day One of my friends mentioned getting meth through eBay, I forget what he called the product name. I'll ask him tomorrow and edit my post. I am so up in the air with what my next mod should be. TMIC, DP or meth. Although I know I won't make any power a UR CBE is also pulling at my heart strings. Maybe I'll go full TBE then work on cooling. I need a beer LOL!

Derp, sorry didn't see your city in your profile.

If you're between DP/TMIC/Meth/CBE, then I suggest you go with the DP since you already have the internals in place. It is the biggest performance jump you will see between the 4. If you like sound, go with the UR CBE though. But it will be a whole lot more expensive, and for the price of it you could get a DP+meth/TMIC.

Regarding the meth availability, you can alternatively go to wal-mart and purchase the yellow HEET bottles for $5 per 1.5qt. These are the same as 100% methanol, but more expensive than buying the 5gal drum (if you do the math it's $66 for 5gal of HEET). But this is probably cheaper than buying meth with shipping. I doubt they ship 100% methanol due to hazard regulations, and if they do there's got to be some kind of surcharge. The DO pre-mix is $60 shipped for one gallon.

Originally Posted by Roddiy @adlpb How long does 5 gal of 100% meth last you? Once I get my AP I suspect meth might be my next step.

How much meth lasts is entirely up to the driver. If you have a progressive meth controller, you can set up at what boost level you want to begin spraying. I have it set up around 2psi and maxing out at 11psi. So as long as I stay out of boost, I won't use any.

I haven't used much methanol at all because I've been having a lot of issues with the DevilsOwn kit. It's leaked every time (I even used a meth-resistant sealant) from the reservoir, the check valve has got stuck numerous times. Their parts are of much lower quality. I just received all replacement parts (minus pump/controller) from SnowPerformance and will be doing the install soon. I do not recommend anyone buying DO meth kits, especially if using 100%meth.

Originally Posted by dsmluck Go meth. Don't look back. Its a waste of money on the stock K04 to go with an aftermarket TMIC when methanol injection is cheaper and provides better results. Meth will drop your BATs significantly. The stock IC is not a bottleneck. Google the 2008+ WRX intercooler and look at how small that unit is and yet people are putting down 350whp and 400wtq on it. As for heat soak it is really bad on the MS3 and MS6. The IC sits on top of the engine block and there is very little space between the bottom of the IC and the block. Still meth will help bring down heat soaked temps when on boost and keep you out of the danger zone where even an aftermarket TMIC might not.

I have to disagree with you on this. The biggest advantage of replacing the stock TMIC is not because it is a bottleneck (although once you replace your DP, it does become a restriction), but because it has huge air loss issues. And aftermarket TMIC will yield more airflow, which means more peak boost and hence more power.

Also, although the WRX intercooler is smaller, it is not located directly on top of the engine bay like ours is. The reason they can put down that power is beecause they don't suffer from the heat soak that the MS3 design does at peak boost.

You're correct about methanol solving the BAT issue. Although I have a FMIC, it took my BAT's to the 50's in 75 degree weather, when normally they would be in the 90's. But I still think more airflow is a bigger advantage than a 20-30 degrees of temperature reduction. Especially during the non-summer days.

[Floridaspeed]

Adlpb thank you for your insight!! I think for now I am going to go with a DP and TMIC upgrade. After reading about the problems that you are having with the DO kit it makes me a little apprehensive.

I don't want to be driving around and always be wondering in my mind if the meth kit is working properly. Can't you really mess up stuff if it isn't spraying right? I am still very new to meth.

I am really surprised to read your comment on the DO kits. I thought people really like theirs? If I bought a kit you would recommend SnowPerformance instead?

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by dsmluck Its a waste of money on the stock K04 to go with an aftermarket TMIC when methanol injection is cheaper and provides better results.

wrong
how much do you pay for meth....lets say per month and how many miles

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by adlpb I have to disagree with you on this. The biggest advantage of replacing the stock TMIC is not because it is a bottleneck (although once you replace your DP, it does become a restriction), but because it has huge air loss issues. And aftermarket TMIC will yield more airflow, which means more peak boost and hence more power. Also, although the WRX intercooler is smaller, it is not located directly on top of the engine bay like ours is. The reason they can put down that power is beecause they don't suffer from the heat soak that the MS3 design does at peak boost. You're correct about methanol solving the BAT issue. Although I have a FMIC, it took my BAT's to the 50's in 75 degree weather, when normally they would be in the 90's. But I still think more airflow is a bigger advantage than a 20-30 degrees of temperature reduction. Especially during the non-summer days.

We will have to agree to disagree. I think the benefits from upgrading to a TMIC for less air loss are nominal to say the least. The stock turbo can be basically maxed without upgrading intercoolers as long as you are running meth. When I had a FMIC on the MS3 i decided to run test and throw the stock TMIC back on there. The power felt the same and honestly the BATs once moving were not that far apart. Methanol does far more from a power standpoint than upgrading your intercooler.

My point about the WRX intercooler is that it is a smaller unit than the stock MS3 intercooler and yet people can run 350+ whp through them. The idea that the stock MS3 intercooler is a bottleneck at 300 whp is just not remotely true. That's not really aimed at you but just a reply to what I have read other people saying on here.

[dsmluck]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed wrong how much do you pay for meth....lets say per month and how many miles

$20 for a 5 gallon bucket of Methanol from a local fuel shop. Lasts between 1 to 2 months depending on on concentration used and driving characteristics. I averaged about 1500 miles a month when I had the speed.

The benefit of methanol is that you can hit near winter boost temps in the summer time while spraying. No intercooler on the market will drop BATs as much as a simple methanol kit. I even found that the best way to drop heat soak quickly was to "prime" the engine with a little boost to get the methanol to kick in wait about 5 to 10 seconds and then do a pull. I could drop BATs to below ambient every time that way.

[adlpb]

Originally Posted by Floridaspeed Adlpb thank you for your insight!! I think for now I am going to go with a DP and TMIC upgrade. After reading about the problems that you are having with the DO kit it makes me a little apprehensive. I don't want to be driving around and always be wondering in my mind if the meth kit is working properly. Can't you really mess up stuff if it isn't spraying right? I am still very new to meth. I am really surprised to read your comment on the DO kits. I thought people really like theirs? If I bought a kit you would recommend SnowPerformance instead?

Yes and no. It depends on your tune and how aggresively you tune for meth injection. 100% meth took my AFR's down from 11.9 to the 9's. This means that my tune post-meth accounted for this change and by leaning out and bringing it back to 11.8. However, if you stop spraying your AFR's will increase by the value which was brought up. For example, in my case, if I stopped spraying in a meth-only map, my AFR's would go very lean (around the 14's). Most kits come with a float switch which is supposed to tell you when the methanol level is low. One way to have peace of mind when using meth, is by using a mix of E85. This will reduce knock and the chance of detonation when going lean.

I had a bad experience with DO myself. I'm not sure if others have here. First of all, the way the lines attach to the tank leaves a lot of room for failure and leaking. You have to drill the hole yourself, and pressurize the line to the reservoir. In the snow performance kit, the hole is there and you just thread in the line - which makes it a lot simpler and reduces the leaking opportunity dramatically. Also, (and I have seen this happen to others here before) my check valve got stuck numerous times. When this happens, it's bad news. Basically, your controller "tells" you that methanol is being injected, but nothing is going in. I had to take out the check valve and clean it to fix it temporarily. I could tell there was no spraying because of the higher BAT's, but I do not monitor that all the time I go WOT. Yes, I paid more for SnowPerformance parts. But I can immdediately tell that these are of much higher quality than DO. @rfinkle2 can attest to this as well. Also, the plastic lines they provide are thicker than the DO ones.

I did not purchase the kit from Snow, just the individual parts. So I am not sure if they sell the whole kit. They are extremely helpful over the phone. You can call them after 10AM EST, (866)365-2762 or (719)633-3811. I talked to Josh.

[Paul]

I am being sold this idea.... Being in TX where Summer means 100-115+ F..... Looks like Meth will be my friend.

[rfinkle2]

Do kits are just that...affordable (read cheap) methanol injection.

If you are using methanol to max out a tune, I can't recommend DO kits simply due to the reliability issues that some of us have had, from stuck check valves to leaking bulk head fittings.

I know of quite a few guys who have had issues with different individual parts of the DO kits and I have since switched out everything but the pump and controller.

Alkycontrol is highly recommended by cld12pk2go, and I have an AEM check valve, Snow nozzles, Snow bung and Snow nozzle holder.

Snow's forum is very informative, and they have Snow employees answering meth injection questions daily.

[Floridaspeed]

Excellent information. I'm going to go UR DP and look more into a Snow kit. I have a buddy in town that has experience with meth kits. I'm sure he could help me with the install.

If not I might have to take a trip to Boca

[Broxer]

I agree with the above posts. DO kits are cheap. I got a killer deal on mine but if I was buying new I'd go with a snow kit. My controller died about a week after I got my kit. It took some hasseling but I got it replaced at no cost. I also had to jb weld the shit out of my 3qt tank to get the tap to seal.

You definately get what you pay for.

Sent from my Rezound using Tapatalk

[Blackrider]

Is seams to me if all your looking for is cooling water injection is the way to go. From what I've been reading a straight water setup has much more cooling capacity than Meth does without the tuning issues. I'm happy to run a conservative ignition table. Any input?

[Paul]

@phate

Ok so.

Organizing my thoughts here after asking some questions in chat.

1. I have a E85 / 91 Mix currently ( 1/3 ratio )

2. I noticed the increasing ambient temps are causing Higher BATs and Less g/s and Less HP.

3. Temps are going to reach 100-115 F+. As well as me being in El Paso, TX. 3600-4000ft Elv.

4. From what I got as feedback. When running E85 you do not need meth. ( E85 mix combustion is colder than straight 91/93 causing the cylinder temps to be lower. )

5. Meth will lower BAT's and create denser air.

6. E85 likes hotter temps. So it is not necessary to run meth.

7. I will be installing a CS TMIC and NKG step colder plugs in the near future.

SO

Will Eth + Meth be; Unsafe/Dangerous/useless ?

Thanks for contributing info:
@MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex

Also this... which I picked up from another thread.

http://www.designengineering.com/pre...er-sprayer-kit

Also they have a Sprayer for the exterior of the IC.

and more win....

a DIY mister for TMIC
Intercooler mister.

This thread is awesome too...

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-w-meth-86983/

[Broxer]

Originally Posted by Blackrider Is seams to me if all your looking for is cooling water injection is the way to go. From what I've been reading a straight water setup has much more cooling capacity than Meth does without the tuning issues. I'm happy to run a conservative ignition table. Any input?

I'm no expert but my general understanding is:

Meth's primary purpose is to cool the intake charge(BAT) prior to entering the combustion chamber. This is great because your ECU/Tune will read your Boost Temps and withhold or increase timing, boost etc... based on how heatsoaked / cool you're running.

Water's primary purpose is to cool the combustion temperatures down. As water is turned to vapor it absorbs the heat and carries it out. That vapor also helps clean your combustion chamber and exhaust valves.

Cooling goes a long way on turbo cars, especially with the K04.

The octane increase is pretty minimal compared to e85. Atleast it seems that way with the amount of Meth that is normally run. Using higher quantities might have a different effect.

I've generally run either 100% meth or 80/20 with good results. 50/50 netted minimal gains.

[silvapain]

The only truly reliable methanol injection system is Aquamist. Devil's Own and Snow Performance don't even compare. Be prepared to pay for it, though.

I'll stick with E85 and my ETS TMIC.


Tapadatass

[Blackrider]

Originally Posted by Broxer I'm no expert but my general understanding is: Meth's primary purpose is to cool the intake charge(BAT) prior to entering the combustion chamber. This is great because your ECU/Tune will read your Boost Temps and withhold or increase timing, boost etc... based on how heatsoaked / cool you're running. Water's primary purpose is to cool the combustion temperatures down. As water is turned to vapor it absorbs the heat and carries it out. That vapor also helps clean your combustion chamber and exhaust valves. Cooling goes a long way on turbo cars, especially with the K04. The octane increase is pretty minimal compared to e85. Atleast it seems that way with the amount of Meth that is normally run. Using higher quantities might have a different effect. I've generally run either 100% meth or 80/20 with good results. 50/50 netted minimal gains.

I guess the Water provides most of the cooling in a Water/Meth kit so running 100% meth will net you huge octane gains but sacrifice cooling, running straight water will provide maximum cooling and still a fair amount of knock protection but obviously wont provide any octane increase.

People seam to be pretty divided on it, but most agree if your looking for a balance of cooling and octane 80/20 is the way to go. 50/50 really sacrifices octane but cools pretty good.

I've sent off a few e-mails to (Snow and DO) to get their take on it.


P.S. Reading and typing are fun when you have a screaming 8 Week old on your lap!

[Broxer]

Originally Posted by silvapain The only truly reliable methanol injection system is Aquamist. Devil's Own and Snow Performance don't even compare. Be prepared to pay for it, though. I'll stick with E85 and my ETS TMIC. Tapadatass

Gotta do what you can when there's no e85 near by.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk

[adlpb]

Originally Posted by Paul @phate Ok so. Organizing my thoughts here after asking some questions in chat. 1. I have a E85 / 91 Mix currently ( 1/3 ratio ) 2. I noticed the increasing ambient temps are causing Higher BATs and Less g/s and Less HP. 3. Temps are going to reach 100-115 F+. As well as me being in El Paso, TX. 3600-4000ft Elv. 4. From what I got as feedback. When running E85 you do not need meth. ( E85 mix combustion is colder than straight 91/93 causing the cylinder temps to be lower. ) 5. Meth will lower BAT's and create denser air. 6. E85 likes hotter temps. So it is not necessary to run meth. 7. I will be installing a CS TMIC and NKG step colder plugs in the near future. SO Will Eth + Meth be; Unsafe/Dangerous/useless ? Thanks for contributing info: @MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex Also this... which I picked up from another thread. CryO2 Intercooler Sprayer Kit | Exhaust Header Wrap and Thermal Performance Products | Design Engineering, Inc. Also they have a Sprayer for the exterior of the IC. and more win.... a DIY mister for TMIC Intercooler mister. This thread is awesome too... http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-w-meth-86983/

I'm running half of my tank with E85 and 100% methanol injection. There's nothing "unsafe" "dangerous" or "useless" about it.

E85 will cool down combustion temperatures, but also kill most of the knock present with 93.

Meth will drastically reduce BAT's and richen AFR's, allowing for more timing.

Attached is an example of what 100%meth injection will do to a 50/50 E85 map. This map was for E85 only, it did not account for methanol injection (hence the rich AFR's). I'm just displaying it to show what methanol does.

[MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex]

Originally Posted by adlpb I'm running half of my tank with E85 and 100% methanol injection. There's nothing "unsafe" "dangerous" or "useless" about it. E85 will cool down combustion temperatures, but also kill most of the knock present with 93. Meth will drastically reduce BAT's and richen AFR's, allowing for more timing. Attached is an example of what 100%meth injection will do to a 50/50 E85 map. This map was for E85 only, it did not account for methanol injection (hence the rich AFR's). I'm just displaying it to show what methanol does.

@Paul told ya lol

[Paul]

Originally Posted by MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex @Paul told ya lol

What I was getting from that chat box was that It was not a good idea. To run Eth+Meth.

It made no sense to me why it was not a good idea.... Since I knew what each one did. I just needed to find someone else doing to it to confirm the functionality.

Snow Performance S2 + 1/3 E85/91 should work nice in 100F+ then.

[MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex]

Originally Posted by Paul What I was getting from that chat box was that It was not a good idea. To run Eth+Meth. It made no sense to me why it was not a good idea.... Since I knew what each one did. I just needed to find someone else doing to it to confirm the functionality. Snow Performance S2 + 1/3 E85/91 should work nice in 100F+ then.

Stock turbo right? Stage 1 is easier. You don't need a progressive controller with how linear our stock snail is

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by dsmluck We will have to agree to disagree. I think the benefits from upgrading to a TMIC for less air loss are nominal to say the least. The stock turbo can be basically maxed without upgrading intercoolers as long as you are running meth. When I had a FMIC on the MS3 i decided to run test and throw the stock TMIC back on there. The power felt the same and honestly the BATs once moving were not that far apart. Methanol does far more from a power standpoint than upgrading your intercooler. My point about the WRX intercooler is that it is a smaller unit than the stock MS3 intercooler and yet people can run 350+ whp through them. The idea that the stock MS3 intercooler is a bottleneck at 300 whp is just not remotely true. That's not really aimed at you but just a reply to what I have read other people saying on here.

So, you are stating your butt dyno as fact? I have posted actual dyno results of TMIC with quite more than your "nominal" claims. Do a search.

I am not disagreeing with the benefits of running meth, but to say that a TMIC is basically useless is just plain wrong.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Paul What I was getting from that chat box was that It was not a good idea. To run Eth+Meth. It made no sense to me why it was not a good idea.... Since I knew what each one did. I just needed to find someone else doing to it to confirm the functionality. Snow Performance S2 + 1/3 E85/91 should work nice in 100F+ then.

Whomever was in shout (I'm guessing Phate from your posts) was probably referring to meth injection that can't be relied upon.

I don't want to speak for Phate, but I think if you were to install an Aquamist kit, he would tune it.

@ the moment, the most reliable and effective way to make a big leap in power is e85, hands down.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Whomever was in shout (I'm guessing Phate from your posts) was probably referring to meth injection that can't be relied upon. I don't want to speak for Phate, but I think if you were to install an Aquamist kit, he would tune it. @ the moment, the most reliable and effective way to make a big leap in power is e85, hands down.

I have not consulted Phate in depth about this yet. I was talking to Rex and some others in chat about it. Trying to gain a knowledge base.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Paul phate Ok so. Organizing my thoughts here after asking some questions in chat. 1. I have a E85 / 91 Mix currently ( 1/3 ratio ) 2. I noticed the increasing ambient temps are causing Higher BATs and Less g/s and Less HP. 3. Temps are going to reach 100-115 F+. As well as me being in El Paso, TX. 3600-4000ft Elv. 4. From what I got as feedback. When running E85 you do not need meth. ( E85 mix combustion is colder than straight 91/93 causing the cylinder temps to be lower. ) 5. Meth will lower BAT's and create denser air. 6. E85 likes hotter temps. So it is not necessary to run meth. 7. I will be installing a CS TMIC and NKG step colder plugs in the near future. SO Will Eth + Meth be; Unsafe/Dangerous/useless ? Thanks for contributing info: MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex Also this... which I picked up from another thread. CryO2 Intercooler Sprayer Kit | Exhaust Header Wrap and Thermal Performance Products | Design Engineering, Inc. Also they have a Sprayer for the exterior of the IC. and more win.... a DIY mister for TMIC Intercooler mister. This thread is awesome too... http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-w-meth-86983/

There's definitely nothing "unsafe" about running meth with an E85 mix. If your meth goes out mid run, the E85 is already taking care of the knock protection.

You may gain slightly more airflow, but the reality is that the ambient air is causing a great deal of the flow loss. We gain flow in the winter because the air density is higher...

Originally Posted by adlpb I'm running half of my tank with E85 and 100% methanol injection. There's nothing "unsafe" "dangerous" or "useless" about it. E85 will cool down combustion temperatures, but also kill most of the knock present with 93. Meth will drastically reduce BAT's and richen AFR's, allowing for more timing. Attached is an example of what 100%meth injection will do to a 50/50 E85 map. This map was for E85 only, it did not account for methanol injection (hence the rich AFR's). I'm just displaying it to show what methanol does.

E85 doesn't cool down combustion temps (you end up increasing the total energy available when running ethanol, actually). It cools down the air-charge, similar to what meth is doing. The advantage is that it is doing it in the cylinder, and it is much, much, much more effective. We're talking 160 octane effective:

http://web.mit.edu/mitei/lfee/progra...2008-01-rp.pdf

The argument that meth will reduce BAT's so much that you can run more timing is pretty much null. The E85 cars run just as much or more timing than cars with WMI. In my "intercooler delete" testing, I saw 230°+ temps at full boost and full timing with E85. No air mass was lost, and the car ended up running more smoothly, lol. Things get good starting here: Intercooler delete

The argument that richer AFR's allow more timing and more power with E85 is also null. I have tested AFR's on the dyno with E85 and there is no advantage to running richer, even after timing has been adjusted. The only time richer AFR's are effective is when they are needed for knock protection - we have enough knock protection with small amounts of ethanol to hit MBT very, very easily and safely.

So now, what I think about the eth/meth combo:

Running it while you are running E85 would only be advantageous IF it is able to increase the air mass. Having it as a backup to E85 for when you switch back to gas would be beneficial, since gas is much more prone to detonation when hot.

[Broxer]

Originally Posted by phate You may gain slightly more airflow, but the reality is that the ambient air is causing a great deal of the flow loss. We gain flow in the winter because the air density is higher...

Could you provide more detail on this? Are you saying that using meth to cool bats post turbo isn't very effective? Would a small amount of pre turbo meth help counter act this effect?

Sorry man, just trying to wrap my head around it.

[phate]

Originally Posted by Broxer Could you provide more detail on this? Are you saying that using meth to cool bats post turbo isn't very effective? Would a small amount of pre turbo meth help counter act this effect? Sorry man, just trying to wrap my head around it.

Using meth does cool down temps quite a bit, absolutely it's effective in that regard. I'll post up some comparative figures later, though, so you can see how effective ethanol is compared to methanol. [It's all in my E85 thread, but who wants to search through that, lol.]

A lot of this comes down to how you're tuning, and if you're turbo has a bit of head room to increase flow. You should see lower pressure with the lower temps, so having head room with the turbo allows it to bump up the pressure and that is where you gain the airflow (if your using pressure based tuning). With the K04, though, we don't have that headroom, since we essentially run them full tilt with E85.

I'm working on the pre-turbo meth testing now. I think the pump I have is bad, but I'll be getting a new one asap. I'll post up results when I get it working. I don't think it will be as effective as I want it to be, lol.

[silvapain]

Even on just E50 I can run timing as close to MBT as I dare without going on a Dyno and not knock. There is just no need to reduce BATs when on E85.

I would entertain using meth injection for extra fuel if running a BT, as the IDC's are maxed out with E85 on just the K04. However, you would run the risk of going über lean if meth runs out, which would lead to high EGTs.


Tapadatass

[G26]

Eh TMIC ftw. My wgdc dropped quite a bit from stock tmic to cpe tmic. It also heats up slower, and cools down much faster with much better throttle response.

[phate]

Originally Posted by G26 Eh TMIC ftw. My wgdc dropped quite a bit from stock tmic to cpe tmic. It also heats up slower, and cools down much faster with much better throttle response.

WGDC drops, because there is less pressure drop from the aftermarket intercoolers. We do not, however, see more airflow. With the K04, the stock top mount is not a flow restriction. We see (depending on car) 280-300g/s whether it's stock top mount, aftermarket top mount, or front mount. The K04 is the limiting factor.

@adlpb, @dsmluck, does that help settle your debate from above?