Look at this crock of shit from a local Ford dealer....
 

Craigslist: 2013 FORD FOCUS ST's http://tampa.craigslist.org/psc/ctd/3350047604.html

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How much you want to bet he's never driven the speed or gti...

DroidX2-TapTapTaparooo

i read the new car and drive or some car mag and the speed3 placed 2nd, :(

st vs gti vs speed3

Haters be Haten!!:grumpy:

Someone go drive it then ask for a roll race against your speed since it will beat it all day long

tapafuck

Actually the ms3 got 3rd. But the results make it seem like a grandma was driving it.

Let ppl buy the st. Then we will laugh at them Everytime we beast them.

Without competition driving would be boring. I just don't like false advertising.

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I doubt the salesman really gives a shit what this car can do, he just wants to make his sales numbers go up. Those seats look really comfortable though

Wow. What a load of crap

I was a bit envious of the seats when I sat in one the other day, they are pretty comfy. I'm not the biggest fan of how the back end looks though.

i'm completely jellis of the seats..

i do like the rear as well as the grill, but the front and sides just look off. ah, what the fuck ever.

and i don't see how a ms3 could lose to a gti and st, the car and driver driver must have been retard.

How the fuck does a POS ST get recaros and we dont?

Who really gives a shit? Once it hits the play ground we'll all hear this, "Just wait for the SVT version..."

Should call them, ask how much extra for vtec and twin turbo's

The ST's interior looks NICE!
I prefer the exterior look of the MS3 tho.

From what I have seen and heard, stock to stock it's mostly a drivers race between the ST and MS3, right?

QFT!!! I mean our seats are pretty nice and comfortable, but man I never knew recaros were like that. Plunk that in a MS3 and it'd be perfect.

Anyone check out the steering wheel on the ST? I thought they did a good job with it as well. I also prefer the exterior of the MS3 greatly, yes even the pu.

Yep,...until you hit about 90 mph. After that, the MS3 runs away, noticeable better top end.

Personal preference, but I like the exterior pretty well, definitely more than a pu. I think Ford did a pretty good job with it overall.

I stopped at a ford dealer to pick up some Motorcraft, and checked out the ST they had.

I can tell you for a fact that the seats in that thing put ours to shame...

huh, i thought the ms3 was more powerful stock than the st. ah well, i am learning every day.

i guess it's not surprising the ms3 is starting to fall behind in the hot hatch category. i mean, it has been out for 5 years and has been at the top of every list for almost the whole time. i think people were getting bored of it, and the st is nicely done. i think ford did a great job. i'm interested to see how they pan out once they've been around for a while.

That's not the case. Fabricated numbers and made up results for the test. At best on a perfect day, the broke even. Falling behind is far from the truth SIR!

On paper, yes. On a dyno, no.

The ST won the comparison in C&D by a wide margin. The biggest factor seemed to be the neutral handling characteristics. Apparently you can get the back end out mash the gas and pull through a corner. The MS3 and GTI understeer when pushed hard. For someone who enjoys corners its huge for drag racers it doesn't matter. Either way I can't see how anyone would diss that car...

i guess i'll have to drive one and see..

still, it's not like the ms3 is lacking in the handling category.. i outdrive people all the time on the twisties around here. although that is prolly more to do with the other driver being a scared turdball.

If I were a Ford dealer, I'd say the same thing and have a copy of the C&D article in every ST in the showroom.
This is about sales, not truth.

WTB those seats

lol @ ford

Those things are fugly.

Ah ok since you have more seat time in a Focus ST than C&D why don't you enlighten us to the truth about the handling between the two cars.

A Genpu owner dissing the styling of another vehicle? Lol!

Ford is doing the same Dodge did withe there flexfuel trucks. They are giving the consumer Hp Torque numbers base on testing with 100% E85, and we all now the difference on running 93 ans E85. At boost target set at 17.4 and only being able to maintaining 270 tork for 15 min at a time I will stick to my genpu.

"the ST model gets the 2.0-liter EcoBoost engine with all of its accompanying tech features: high-pressure direct fuel injection, turbocharging and twin independent variable camshaft timing. All of that adds up to 252 hp and 270 lb-ft of torque, with a trick overboost feature that allows for extending that peak torque for 15 seconds at a time.":crackhead:

Read more: 2013 Ford Focus ST: Drive review - Autoweek

LOL

I just realized in the Road & Track tests they revved the MS3 all the way to 7,400 rpm...


No wonder they got 6.5 sec 0-60s.


DId anyone else catch that?

The driver in the ms3 for the C&D article was a terrible driver.

Yeah. That article is such bullshit.

"The Mazda engine is strong, but by the time it’s approaching its 6700 rpm redline it’s starting to tail off," No fucking shit, why were you driving it to 6700 anyways??
"and heading beyond to the 7400 rpm rev limiter doesn’t do much good." - Are you serious?:banghead:

Read all the comments below, multiple people called R&T Over their ford "Advertisement" which is what this article was.


They literally contradicted every other review they've posted on the MS3, if you go back a year they stated 6-sec 0-60s

Aside from other reviews such as Edmunds and Car&Driver which put the MS3 doing 0-60 in 5.6 sec and 1/4 at 14.1 sec and the ST doing 6.5sec/15sec respectively.

I test drove the ST and for what its worth it is a great car. The Recaros are awesome and the My Touch system that Ford has is nice. Having the option for a sunroof is a nice bonus as well. My only gripe is that to get the Recaros you have to upgrade to the ST2 package and 27k is a little steep for the car.

The steering is extremely responsive and the motor makes a nice growl. Definitely a lot more refined than the Speed and the interior is far better. Overall it's a nice car. But to me you can live without having the $2,500 tech package in the Speed where as the ST you can't live without the $2,300 ST2 package.

Now that's a joke, and look at the price. I can't wait to blast by one on the road.

Uh, did you even read my post?

Everybody keeps saying Car and Driver - the article was Road and Track (same publisher, diff mag)...

Car and Driver has a "first drive" article on the ST, but unless I've completely missed my sub delivery and missed it on their website, no comparo has been done yet. I'd be surprised if C/D didn't wait until they had equivelent year models to test.

I'm still not sure about how unbiased it will be, Ford seems to have dug it's talons in deep. But we'll see...

Well I think the ST looks pretty cool- enough to maybe buy one, since I love hot hatches any way. So, I'll settle it when I take on my own Speed 3- my son in the Speed 3- which I will give to him. He drives just like me anyway since, well I taught him to drive with performance in mind....and I'll drive the ST. Boy that will be fun. If I buy one and do this, I'll report back.

:banned:

For that price, it better out perform the Speed3!

Seriously tho, I like them, but still prefer the looks of the 3.

This shall be known as the day " the student has become the master" lol

Hmm.. you are right lol. I even read the actual magazine when I was getting my car aligned the other day. I guess I saw other people referring to C&D so I did.

The more I think about this article, I kind of like it. One of the main reasons I started liking the MS3 is because they are pretty rare to see (as opposed to WRXs everywhere). If this will sway anyone that doesn't do enough research, or Ford fanboys to get the ST, I'm happy with it.

I think, sadly, that ad reflects the attitude of the majority of future ST owners. I've already had a run in with a shit talking kid who claimed he owned one. Seems that after reading the R&T article, they think they are the most badass thing on 4 wheels. Reminded me of every SRT4 owner I've ever met.

Read C&D and another magazine today basically did the same thing Ford1, Gti2, MS3(3)

I was alittle displeased to see that the focus "beat" the Mazda in almost every category by miniscule amounts .##'s except for the 60-120 according to there Data.
And the GTI still beat out the mazda based on just being a nicer car.

It felt alittle biased, but maybe im being the same way. I love my damn smiling car.

Road and Track! Road and Track!

Let's not burn C/D at the stake just yet. rofl

I drove a 13 MS3 and the ST, Here is my take, both cars are quick, I got to dog the ST where as the MS3 I didn't however, the MS3 seemed quicker and the torque steer wasn't an issue, the ST was quick and I really got to flog it, the sales guy was a douche and really thought I was going to buy it that nite. The ST did feel tighter and was quite inside but not by much it just did not seem to have the pull the MS3 has, both were fun to drive, it has been a hard choice

That was the other one i read today couldnt remeber the name of it sorry.

Yeah the road and track one had all the number comparisons that pissed me off like i said the ST won every category almost by .04's higher then the others.
It did feel very FORD is better'ish.

Fuck a focus. The end.

Unless RS:spankme:

You think R&T was a one sided review? I know this isn't a big reviewer or anything but look at how much ST dick sucking happens here. Everything You Wanted to Know About the 2013 Ford Focus ST | The Smoking Tire

Hopefully not a repost

I love Matt Farah and how he reviews cars, but that was a load of BS

Sent using my EVO LTE

A guy with DSM in his nickname and a subaru in his sig? Lol!

Hahaha @ going 130mph by the time the overboost is done with (15s) Pretty sure it will take quite a bit longer to get to 130 then 15s. Probably closer to 20s.

The same thing is happening in this case as with what happens with most GTI vs MS3 reviews.

The reviewers care more about the interior and from that point on skew the review results in favor of said car.

The rediculous part of it is that the interior of the MS3 is above average as it is. They make it sound like it's bottom line and complete shit. Even people with GTI's who ride in my car comment on how the interior is way better then the reviews made it out to be.


Still, I think everyone expected as much. It's a bit shameful how these reviewers are misrepresenting the performance of the MS3 to such a high degree though.

I'm willing to bet that the shitty times in this road and track review are due to the driver not turning DSC off.

Alright my MZR friends. I went to local Ford and test drove the ST. Great car,fun to drive for a Focus. Although it has been out in Europe for many years Ford has had plenty time to tweak and produce the ST for USA. Here are the positives, car is very light so that is where the 252 hp helps,sterring is responsive and does handle corners well. I did stomp the gas with salesman digging his nails into his seat. Quick car, I would say same as GTI but not MZR. My speed3 is atleast 1sec faster 0-60 and 3 sec faster going to 100. As far as seats and comfort, very nice ride not as stiff when hitting bumps and seats are nice but don't seem to hold you in place when whipping around the corners. Fords downside is stock to stock MZR is much better made and no comparison when talking value. I can't fit my 9 yr old and surf boards in the Focus,as I can in the Speed3. Biggest problem is you end up paying $30k when all said and done with tax, tag, and any upgrades. Hell you can throw in a big turbo and every MOD possible for that price with the Speed3. I can say I did like the Focus more than GTI but Mazda is still King!!!!!! Happy Racing

For what its worth, I sell cars, Ford being one of the brands that we offer.

Now for the most part, sales consultants (or salesmen) are not car guys. To obtain knowledge on new cars we recieve information from the manufacture, beyond that and checking out the vehicle yourself you can go look at various magazine or online publications. Point being, hes not necessarily a con or a bad sales consultant, he may just be missinformed.

Believe it or not, a majority of sales consultants have good intentions and are not trying to outright lie to you. Now myself, being new to selling cars have learned a valuable thing- If you don't know the answer, keep your mouth shut until you can find one and then verify!!

"Trust but verify!"- Ronald Reagan




Now with that said- There are positives and negatives to both. The important thing being that at last there is another choice in the "Hot Hatch" segment. For me, the MS3 fit my needs a little better. Besides that, who even cares stock for stock anymore anyways? I voided my warranty within a day or two of getting my MS3...... We can only hope this further pushes OEM and aftermarket development of products.

What is wrong with you fuckers. This guy put his cell number in the CL ad. This thread should be about sending him pictures of dicks.

Yeap. Its just easier to stick with the original screen name i made up over a decade ago with my 2g DSM than to constantly update it everytime i change cars.

I just bought a brand new 2012 Speed3 and did the whole WRX, GTI, ST and Speed3 test. Here are some of my opinions that, granted are gut based since it's not like I had the opportunity to do anything scientific. In each case I looked at base models other than the ST, I looked at the ST2 package.

Handling: If you want smooth and refined the GTI wins. If you're talking about driving hard and throwing the car into a corner, the WRX felt the best of the bunch. The ST was solid but I almost felt like it lacked some road feel. The Speed3 had some torque steer but it was fun, it gave you the sense you were driving.

Power: I personally felt the Speed3 felt the best through the gears. The WRX had a little more off the line only because it hooked up better but through all six, or five in the case of the WRX, the Speed3 was my choice. The ST was close and the WRX was right there. The GTI was incredibly lacking. It felt very underpowered.

Gearbox: The ST and Speed3 felt the best, probably a tie. They shifted easy but you could feel what was going on. The GTI was smooth but had no feel to it. The WRX was a little clunky and less smooth.

Interior: The WRX seats were solid but the rest was pretty ho hum. The GTI interior was nice, loved the plaid look but the stereo was pretty lame. The ST (ST2 package) was fantastic. Great seats, stereo and the sync system was pretty neat too. But if you look at the base model the seats are weak as is the stereo. The Speed3 interior was second to the ST (again ST2) and actually, IMO, had the best head unit of the bunch. Great sounding and everything is super easy to use. If we're comparing base to base on each the Speed3 wins IMO. If you look at the upgrade options, the ST wins.

Price: With the discounts on the Speed3 right now it was the lowest price of the bunch. Speed3 - under $23K. GTI - $24K. ST - $27.5K. WRX: $27K (Note: The ST without the ST2 package is going for $24.8K, no one is discounting them yet)

Fun to Cost Ratio: They were all fun. They were all under $28K. If you own any one of them you have car that makes a great daily driver. But for me the fun to cost ratio had the Speed3 on top followed by the ST, WRX and GTI. The top 3 were close, the GTI was way out.

Long Term Reliability: The ST has no info on it, it's too new. It's always a little worrisome when you buy a first year car that has no real roots in the US. You can't compare it to the regular Focus and it's pretty different than it's Euro cousin. The Speed3 has great long term reliability ratings. The GTI, well, not so much. The WRX, they can get a little pricey and have some common flaws but as a whole, they last and can be a strong car for north of 150K miles. I liked the Speed3 in this area but we'll have to see how things shake out for the ST. So far, no reported issues and the standard Focus is a great car.

At the end of the day, like I noted above, I went with the Speed3. I really liked the Focus and they're very comparable in terms of performance but the Speed3 was quite a bit less expensive and has history, plenty of tuner parts and a large community to access with questions. The WRX was cool but they're more expensive and with far fewer ammenities unless you boost it up to the $30K + range. The GTI was fun, refined and the smoothest but reliability issues with VW's and far inferior power kicked that one out of the running first.

So there you have it, non-scientific info from a new Speed3 owner...

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that the ST has no true LSD. I don't like the idea of the electronic diff though I like the torque steer steering compensation system. Long story short, with an electronic diff, excessive wheel spin is controlled with the brakes: leading to brake overheating and faster wear. Also, instead of putting the extra power down to the road through a LSD the ST is wasting it in the brakes... I don't think it's something drivers will experience unless the autox or track the car but it certainly made me step away from the ST. Especially since the RS did have a nice mechanical unit.


Here's the EVO's comparison of Focus ST with a Vauxhall. At the end, the reviewer says: Focus ST is not as much fun/is slower and it needs a LSD. He also complains of the lack of traction mid corner....

I agree that if you value a nice interior and very good racing seats the WRX will disappoint. Don't get me wrong its not the disgusting interior of a Dodge or Chevy its just spartan and basic as can be. You can get a base model for 25.5k though. I bought mine because the bang for the buck is unmatched at the price range and I love AWD.

The ST is a cool car but they are marked way up out here. 30k or so for an ST2 package..From what I have heard it is basically the love child between the comfort of the GTI and the raw performance of an MS3.

You would think with the market being saturated with FWD turbo cars right now (include the Veloster turbo, the Abarth 500, Mini S, ect..) that the prices wouldn't be jack up so high but I guess the demand is higher than supply for most of the turbo models. You know its stupid when 2011 WRX's are selling just below for MSRP with 15k on them...

What is even worst now is the new need for speed commercial has the focus ST in it as the focus point, so now all the fan boys will be like well my car was in a video game commercial eewww aawwww :fuckyou:

I'd just tell them " that's because it's the only way you'll ever replicate the numbers in the magazine or Actualy race it....... Now go press an x button fag"

So true.

Typical salesman say anything to get the sale. As for the car rags they are paid by someone. Whomever has the most money they set the tests up to cater to their cars. Speed3 for the win!

btw It's a Furd.

Would you be saying that if the Speed 3 won?

The ST is legit.

What ever happened to being a car guy first and foremost? I seriously don't get how any MS3 driver can hate on this car. It is very close to being a MS3 with a better interior....

And that "Furd" is a European Ford nothing like the Ford shitboxes from years ago.

Don't care about the car, care about the lies. Don't make up shit to sell me a car or to make the one I've got look bad when it isn't. Being a car enthusiast, you should care about the car, what it can do, and heritage. So when someone takes a giant shit on all three of those you get pissed.

Writers can play with numbers all they want. Maybe the guy missed a shift a few times in the Mazda? There are plenty of variables. I know they are a lot like I searched a while on little hatches and the Mazda won. I drove they Focus also. As long as it has a blue oval on it I'll pass thank you. Those wrx are high on the list also but I chose the Speed3. I like all the shit that I get about the smiley face.

This exactly...

R&T even went so far as to remove the test summary numbers for both the GTI and the MS3 that regularly appear at the end of the issue. Kinda puzzling why they would pull statistics that were always there - unless they didn't jive with the current "comparo" (and they didn't).

It's not that the MS3 lost - it's that they seemed to get numbers radically different than any other test of these cars that any other magazine (even themselves) or reviewer has ever established.

We read these magazines not for subjective opinions on what is "better" but for hard numbers - when we suddenly can't trust those numbers... well, it makes some of us angry. Especially when we just renewed our subscriptions. lol

I must say...I dislike the whole "sound" of the ST in that video, almost as if it was trying to hard to sound mean. Had I not previously known there was a sound symposer in it I would have started to question...it does indeed sound (to me anyways) very "electronic" and somewhat dronally (did I just make that word up?) annoying.

The emails have discontinued.

That being said:

I absolutely agree, it's not like the WRX interior is like the Malibu rental I had last week when away on business (you want to talk about a steaming turd!) it's just not as refined. I was unable, here in NJ anyway, to find any WRX on a lot for under $27K and because there are currently so few, there's no sticker negotiating. Most dealerships have two or less WRX's on the lot and they don't seem to last. But regardless, there's no right answer. The WRX is cool, really enjoyed driving it and like the style but the MS3 was less expensive, had better ammenities and I feel in the long run it'll be less expensive to maintain and I found the MS3 to have a little more get up and go. With that said, we'll likely be buying a WRX for my wife next year so I'll be very happy to have them both in the driveway!

JP

Just stopped by a local dealer on Saturday....as always noone approached me so I checked the window sticker and shock wasn't the word for it!!!! They wanted $30,599 added a $2000 market value markup....I left immediately.

Drove it and it feels nice. Its definitely the best out of its class. still i dont like hte looks.
its gears are nicer than the speeds and 3rd is really nice. but higher gears definitely slack off.

i feel like they should have just done the RS for america.

although my speed is a rocket, the ST feels like it would be more refined stock vs stock.

plus it has buttons. buttons controlling buttons. buttons on top of buttons...:lol:

I feel like they went soft on the power with the ST. i dont understand why they cant do the extra 20hp just to win the war.

Edit- to add- i will keep my speed and smoke these ST's.......

Does anyone know why they didn't just bring the RS to America?

I'm looking at it this way. People are going bananas for the ST and its already over priced...what will people pay for the RS when they do bring it over?

I could be wrong, probably am, and its the first thing that popped into my head when I read your post *shrugs*

I think more people would still lean towards names they know in the awd category. Evo's and sti's have that market cornered and not many people even know wtf an rs is much less are going to spend that kind of cheddar on a focus.

Die hard fans would obviously buy it and people looking for an alternative. At the end of the day more people are going to buy an existing well-known platform over a focus. The name is synonymous with a piece of shit here. Europe has had them for a while so it's a no brainer. They'll probably see how we'll the ST does before even considering bringing the rs. I'd definitely consider it because I'm married , I couldn't imagine going on a date and picking up a girl in a focus. They would probably laugh you off of the recaro.

The ST will probably sell better. RS will cost a lot more, 3 door hatch doesn't sell as well in the US and they are counting on non-"because racecar" drivers to buy these too! :D

THIS.^^^^^

I just hear a lot shit talking butt hurt ppl for no reason. Trash a Si or whatever all you want but like was said the ST is a legit car. As a former focus owner and forum go-er i know on the focus forums the MS3 is a well respected and welcomed car. You gotta figure the speed 3 is 5 years old and now its got more comp. Im sure the next gen will catch back up and be a top choice as it always has been.

We all have our needs and wants in a car and if the MS3 does it for you (like it did me) then you go with it. It really sounds like a lot of jealous ppl over a car that is new to the market and they cant afford the switch.

Just love what you got and move on.

I think people were more butthurt (like myself) that the MS3 was misrepresented in the comparisons so far. This caused quite a few of the ST people to become snobby as well.

I didnt read the article myself, but I agree that reading these articles sometimes makes you wonder what these peoples backgrounds are. Im aiming mainly at some who are just making themselves sound like fanboys that bash all opposition.

i think the biggest reason the guy says it beats the ms3 and gti is because he was spamming his ad with keywords without being obvious.

someone searches for gti and sees the st ad.

FTFY :D


Seriously, I've seen very little bashing on the MS3 on the ST forums but a lot of claims to that effect here. Sure there is the occasional idiot 16 year old that knows nothing about the MS3, but most of the people there know the ST wouldn't exist in it's current form if the MS3 didn't push Ford on the performance side a bit. It would probably have been only about 5% more powerful than the GTI and have more cup holders. :D

I doubt we will see as many production years out of the ST as we have for the MS3. I just hope Mazda has a nice comeback in 2014 now that the competition has finally caught on.

Sent from Cloud 9

You must be young. None of the cars in the mid 20's price range attract women over the age of 20. If you want to impress a woman with your car you drive an audi or BMW, something that says money and refinement. Cars like the MS3, WRX, ST, GTI all basically look similar to their bargain basement eco shit box cousins. You drive those cars because they offer great performance and practicality for the price. Besides the size of your dick, wallet, or existance of an actual personality is much more imporant to a date than what you drive.

While ill agree an Audi or bimmer is more impressive to a lady. Not many 20 year old guys can afford them. So.... Yea I understand what you're saying but, it's a bit out of context. Now if you mean women over 30, that's a different story.

I just flagged his post as spam. Dickweed.

The reason the RS is not in the US as of now is due to the fact that the higher ups in Ford want proof that a hot hatch will sell to the US in large enough numbers to make it worth the expense. If sucessful with the ST, i expect to see an RS in the next 2-3 years in atleast an auto show here stateside. I'm honestly not sure that we will see a production version before the next body refresh which is happening on average every 3 years with ford currently.

Side note, we just got our ST here at the dealership but it hasn't been inspected yet, as soon as its road ready I might try and take it for a spin. I can assure you that atleast our dealership will NOT have a markup. My wifes dealership on the other hand..... they had around a 2-3k markup (and haven't had any interest in a month). But then again, she does work for the guy who marked up his Shelby GT500KR to $120k when it first came out. :squintfinger:

None of this matters if they make an AWD Speed 6 wagon...

I'm hoping the more I say it, the more likely it'll happen.

Why is this a crock of shit? The ST is a newer car... Of course it outperforms our car.

I just don't get why so many people in here get so offended about a newer car outperforming our aging platform, that's how progress should work right? Actually I feel hopeful with all these new sporty cars coming out (ST, BRZ, etc..) because I'm sure Mazda is going to take note and step up their game. I can hope for a turbocharged Skyactive on a very light body making it very efficient and more solid.

So, newer cars always outperform older cars? So a genpu is better in all areas compared to a genwon? :09:

People are pissed because the numbers for the MS3 (and the GTI) were misrepresented in the R&T article and that is what that dealer is using as his basis for his claim... they not only misrepresented the performance of the MS3 and GTI but also, compared to ALL THE OTHER reviews and tests greatly exaggerated the performance the the ST.

Nobody cares about subjective claims about which car is "better" - everybody cares about the numbers... and they pulled those numbers out of their asses.

Out of their asses, SIR!

OK OK it is not a rule BUT it is usually how it goes... In the case of the genpu vs. genwon some performance, styling, interior and handling was compromised in order to make the other parts better... LMAO (I don't even believe my own bullshit, sorry man)

I think that car magazines are full of shit anyway... I really don't get why they keep testing cars in that way. For example 0 to 60 times are not useful to me anymore since I don't drag race on my way to work or store.

What the fuck are you talking about?

So you don't trust what magazines say, yet you think the ST outperforms the MS3. Ok bud.

I like the Ricaros and the centered exhaust but other than that I'll take two......one to shit on and the other to cover it up with. I saw them comparing the MS3 and the RS500. They were really pumping the Ford. It is like comparing the MS3 to the Evo or STI. You talk about the difference between a $150,000 and $160,000 and there is not much, but when you compare a $25,000 car to a $35,000 car you would expect some bigger jumps in performance.:saevilw:

Genpu's are gorgeous... definitely my preference (and why I chose one)... though I realize that my opinion is in the minority; at least here, anyways...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/28/atu9y3at.jpg


sent while driving

Shit couldn't type, anyways, wtf is this ^?
Did he have a pistol up his ass?


sent while driving