Needs More Traction!
 

Ok, so I'm a complete noob regarding suspension mods. What can I do to get more traction? I'm tired of smoking 1st - 3rd. I want to grip so that sucker can fly!

I already have the widest, stickiest tires I can fit in the fender wells. What else can I do? Are springs / coils just for lowering the car, or they provide more grip as well? Should I put springs in the back only to raise it up and put more weight on the front end?

What can I do? *Puts his flame suit on*

Stiffer springs will help.

But tires are obviously one of the most rewarding bits.

Driver mod at this point IMO

There's nothing you can do to considerably increase straightline grip other than lightening the entire car or limiting the power using the ECU.

Drive in reverse for rwd.

Tapadatass

Be a man.
Get a quaife LSD. Feels like a new penis.

LMAO... I was just joking about that yesterday.

Very interesting... looks promising. Couldnt find anywhere that sells them for Mazdas though, can you recommend a vendor? And what did it set you back?

EDIT: Nevermind, $1200 bones on the corksport website.

You can get more tire in there. I am working on putting 265/40/17 Dunlop Star Spec tires on all four corners. :saeek:

Can you please provide details?? My 245's just BARELY fit without rubbing.

What's in the MS3 stock? I was looking at the quaife for the MS3 last week, had it in my old ZX3 and it was great. But going from open diff to LSD is magic, but going to LSD to LSD...does it make that much a difference?

For starters, I'm rolling my rear fenders. Owning my own Eastwood fender roller makes it easy.
Even without that, I've seen a few guys fit 255 tires with out rolling the fenders.
It will be be a week or so before I get the lug nuts and spacers I need to make it work.
I'll be posting about it if it all fits the way I hope.
The setup is 265/40/17 Star Specs on Rota Grid 17X9.0 +42 wheels. They are only 1mm (or less) from the front strut. 3mm and 5mm spacers are on order and I'm hoping the 3mm works. I think the back will be fine.

Honestly it's not a huge difference.
Unless you are planning on racing your car I'd say it's not worth it.
OEM LSD is made by GKN.

If you get an AP and taper boost I heard that def. helps with traction plus the ability to use launch control, or get yourself a WOTBOX, or just do what everyone else does and race people 40-120.

I think I say some Quaiffe products on the Corksport site, but have zero idea of the fitment etc. (just glanced and saw they are carrying them).

Tires truly make a big difference, but they are not going to completely control wheelspin in a car with some power and FWD.

265 wtf, i am rubbing the shit out of my fender liner with 245.

Oh btw NT01 are far better that NT05.

GKN Driveline : Automotive Driveline Components : Super LSD

Found it, thanks!

Well, if it dies I'll get Quaife.

For Op's thread...tires and suspension. 225 is too little for the stock MS3 as is, imagine fully bolted. 245/40r18 (street) or 255/40r17 (track) is where I'm going to buy. Swift springs, RSB and upgraded struts/shocks for suspension will help for the rest.

Driver mod, FWD is a bitch but we knew this when we bought our cars....

http://img.tapatalk.com/40861f1a-4efe-7b90.jpg255-45-17 hankook tires on 17x8 rims.

Sent from hell.

Hows your clearances? Rolls, pulls, etc?

If running 255, I'd definitely want them on x9's and not x8's .. that's where they are at home.

Lowered on h&r springs no rub up front slight rub rear on very hard dips. No fender pulls or rolls.

Sent from hell.

Wheel offset?

Et45

Sent from hell.

transmission and passenger mount helped out a bit for me.

Reducing weight will only make the problem worse.

^^^ I was thinking the same thing. Less weight will increase hp to weight ratio, so not going to increase traction off the line.

True. Please give me the liberty of rephrasing my response. First, you'd have to reduce the overall weight more at the back end than the front end. More weight on the driven wheels / the total weight of the car will have an effect on traction. Removing the rear bumper's innards (the metal and styrofoam under the rear bumper) would probably net you about 40-50lbs and about .1 in the 1/4 miles. It would also ruin your day if you got tapped in the ass by even a 55hp 1991 Geo Metro going 5 mph faster than you are :chairshot:

If the OP was talking about wheelspin in 1st, 2nd, etc gear then yes you are correct. However, when combined with the proper ECU setup that matches the driveline's output to the traction available, yes lightening the overall car as stated above will MAKE YOU FASTER, not necessarily REDUCE WHEELSPIN. Even the OP mentioned he wants to "make this sucker fly." I'm always thinking in terms of going faster and typically don't look at wheelspin because I've already convinced myself that my car is going nowhere fast in 1st or 2nd gears without some kind of power limiter. Maybe I could hook on a VHT and rubber prepped track in 2nd gear only if the conditions were just right.

Look folks, I don't care if you can fit shaved 335s Michelin Pilot Sport Cups under the front end, you'll still blaze 1st and probably 2nd gear. Do the math.... we launch damn near our torque peak (3k - 3.5k rpms) which is, even stock, about 245lbs/ft at the wheels. Multiply that by the 1st gear ratio (3.21:1) times the final drive ration (4.19:1 in 1st thru 4th gear) and you end up with an overall torque of 3766 lbs/ft hitting the front wheels. Unless you reduce that by at least 1/2, you'll never hook up. Unless you are willing to get into tuning the ECU and limiting power, you will blaze (unless you are a spectacular driver).

Also, what advantage does a Quaife LSD have over any other unit? In cornering, I can understand the some differentials are simply "tigher" than others, but in a straight line, if both wheels are pulling the car and neither is slipping, then WHAT MORE COULD we ask from the LSD? It either works, or doesn't work, at least in our application (a straight line).

Some other ideas: Some stiff ass rear springs/struts, or disconnecting/downsizing the front anti-roll bar, would help reduce weight transfer. Also, anything you can remove from the back half of the car will help. I don't know WHAT exactly, but ditching the spare tire, subwoofer, rear seatbacks, etc could be worth 100lbs which would be worth .1 - .2 seconds in the 1320'.

We could have someone build us a 6 speed transmission with better gear ratios. Face it, the gearing in these cars is great for AutoX, around town driving, and frankly any other application, but it sucks for drag racing. 1st is simply too short to do anything useful other than to get the turbo spinning and the car moving. 2nd is too short too, and also has a tendency to blaze, so what's the point of it? Sure that short 2nd gear helps us navigate the city at low speeds and have the turbo up to full speed by 25mph, but I can think of better ways to gear this car. First, we need to utilize 5 gears in our 1/4 mile run, not 4, esp since the MZR turbo has such a narrow powerband (3,500 - 5,750rpms or so). I'd like to see a 1st gear ratio equivalent to somewhere between the current stock 1st and 2nd gears. 2nd would be just slightly shorter to, or maybe equal to the current 3rd gear. Then 3rd through 5th would be much closer together, equally divided to handle the 65/70mph through 120mph range. Finally 6th gear would be geared about the same as the current 6th gear (allowing us to hit the aerodynamically limited top speed with just maybe 500rpms to spare.

In other words (assuming all shifts are performed at 6krpms, and assuming GEN2 gearing):

Gear Current mph New mph
1 31mph 40mph
2 51mph 68mph
3 71mph 90mph
4 100mph 107mph
5 ~135pmph 120mph
6 165mph 165mph

Even like this we'd have to limit the torque output of the engine in 1st gear (however you want to do it, APP translation, hybrid tuning load tables, piss on ECU, etc). There's just no way around that folks. But then 2nd through 5th could be set un-thtottled by the ECU and could be leveraged more effectively between 40mph and 120mph. Those 40-120mph runs on the street that everyone seems to love (I'm not going to comment on street racing; I've done it many times, don't really do it anymore, drive speed limit when people are or could be present (counstruction zone, school zone, any residential neighbourhood) look back at how stupid I was, and just ask that everyone use common sense) would be faster as long as you can knock out that extra shift quickly.

Sure, these ratio changes would suck for around town driveability, mainly manifesting when coming around a slow corner (15mph) in 2nd gear and punching it. This new gearset would manifest in noticeably more turbo lag at low speeds. You wouldn't be able to come around as many turns in 3rd gear like you did before. However, you'd be able to successfully utilize 5th gear more for around-town running (35-50mph), as I find myself often reaching for a gear between 4th and 5th with the current trans. You'd also see that, for high speed runs, there would be a noticeable gap between 5th and 6th gears (who cares really, right?), but in reality this car makes enough torque that it wouldn't make much difference in the amount of time to get to top speed. But your 40-120mph range would now utilize 4 gears instead of 3, stock cars could trap in 4th gear still, and there'd be plenty of wiggle room to support those bolted-on guys, E85 guys, even BTs. How many MZRs are breaking 120mph in the traps yet? Even if you know a few, that's probably the only few that exist.

Perhaps too, a simpler change to the tranny, would be to the final drive ratio(s). If we could RAISE (numerically lower) the final drive for all gears from say 4.19 to say 3.53 (1st thru 4th gear), and 3.53 to 2.98 (5th and 6th), that would reduce the weight of the transmission by a few pounds and put our gearing more like this:

Gear Current mph New mph
1 31mph 36mph
2 51mph 61mph
3 71mph 84mph
4 100mph 119mph
5 ~135pmph 160mph
6 165mph 196mph

Obviously this would result in much different driving characteristics than that the previous setup mentioned and the stock setp. 1st and 2nd would still be useless but you'd only have to dial out maybe 25% of the torque in 2nd gear instead of ~50% of it. We'd keep the 1/4 mile run by at 3 shifts while crossing the finish line more in our powerband, and leave more room for modded guys (119mph in 4th) and 6th would become a sort of super-overdrive. We'd tach @60mph about 2,050rpms instead of 2,400rpms like we do now, which means almost any highway overtaking would require a downshift; the upside being an increase in highway mpg by 1-3mpg.

Another idea.... different tires by diameter effectively can lower or raise your gear ratio. Ask any Jeep owner who's had their rig lifted and bigger tires installed, but didn't change out both the front and rear ring and pinion ratios.

OK time for bed.... Sorry TL;DR crowd. I guess you'll either need to ignore my posts or just skim through them. Seems like I get very little thanks; not sure why considering the experience I bring to the forums. I'm sure it has something to do with my signature and my claim to this and that, and by coming across a bit arrogant. Please understand I'm not trying to beat my chest. Do you think really that I would have spent the last hour writing all this if I was just beating my chest? I don't claim everything I say is truth and honestly I'm glad guys like @jeopardy98 are ready to call me out. There's nothing wrong with a challenge and I embrace it. At the end of the day, we just want answers to questions right?

Again, sorry TL;DR

@ fortress i just read all that shit!!! lol ok so is this practicle> "Perhaps too, a simpler change to the tranny, would be to the final drive ratio(s). If we could RAISE (numerically lower) the final drive for all gears from say 4.19 to say 3.53 (1st thru 4th gear), and 3.53 to 2.98 (5th and 6th), that would reduce the weight of the transmission by a few pounds "

I read the first 2 paragraphs and gave up. You sir, overthink things WAY too much and you posts may very well be full of some good info but 99% of this board will never read all of it. Also, less weight with equal torque will increase wheelspin and decrease traction. Period.

Stiffer suspension will keep weight forward more, the weight doesn't transfer to rear as much, therefore keeping more weight on front tires and creating more traction, your sig says nt05s unless they are the nt05r you have room to upgrade to drag radials or slicks for track days

Good info, thanks fortress.

I do have the NT05r's. They are pretty much street slicks. If I had to guess I'm getting about 30% more traction with the evo x rims and 245 nittos vs stock rims and potenzas.

As far as the springs, if I were to raise the back a couple inches, it would put more weight on the front tires. Aside from looking a little funky, that would improve grip no? I don't mind looking a little funky if it improves acceleration. I'm more about performance than looks anyway. Would this help in your opinion?

OK let me make this short and sweet.

Go to your local dragstrip with a full tank of fuel. Make 3 runs. Jot down the best 60' time you can muster.

Now open your hatch, take out all the stuff in the hatch, the carpeting, the spare tire, the jack, and let almost all the fuel out.

Now make another 3 runs down the 1/4 mile. Jot down the best 60' time you can muster.

Then come back and clarify your last statement. I'm fine with the first statement about overthinking things too much; actually I appreciate it:headbang:

Anyone try launching in 2nd gear?

yes, doesnt work, most the time you just bog

I have 255/40-17 RS3's and I barely spin 2nd. When the tires are warm they don't spin at all, or at least I don't notice it. I'm running a stock suspension.

i just checked with gran turismo and your logic is flawed bro

Limit boost in 1-3 with tune. Or driver mod required to feather the gas.