New MS3 Owner: Turbo Q's.

[Magsz]

Hey guys,

Please pardon the lack of knowledge but this is why i am here.

First off, i have read through the knowledge base threads, read as much as i can prior to posting but was unable to find specific answers to my questions.

First, a little bit of background. My recently acquired MS3 is my fifth Mazda and i am coming from an 06 RX8. Obviously, given almost six years in the RX8 i know nothing of real torque and turbos. The MS3 is a completely different animal to me.

I picked the car up on Saturday, a 2012 MS3 in Mica Black. I stole it for 21064 OTD. I drove the car quite a bit on Sunday, Monday and then a little today.

Today, the car felt VERY strange. I had no boost in 1st or second until 3.5-4k rpm. The turbo didnt seem to want to spool up and kick in until i really got hard on the throttle in third gear and even then the car felt anemic. Either i am getting used to it or something is going on as the car felt far more spirited on saturday, sunday and monday. I also swear on my life that the darned car was kicking out moderate boost in first and second gear before today. I have read that the boost is electronically limited in these gears but i have been unable to find numbers. Is this the case? If so, what can i expect as far as boost goes according to RPM range?

The best indicator i can give is that on Saturday, Sunday and Monday the torque steer was REALLY pronounced (coming from a RWD, torqueless car) if i took off with a little bit of pep in my step. Today, no torque steer...none.

The car has only been driven hard once by my friend that absolutely had to wring it out and this was the only time it was redlined. Not exactly my idea of "safe" but hardly something that should kill my turbo or create a leak somewhere in the system but stranger things have happened.

There are no ECU lights or dash lights on and the car is running normally albeit in my eyes, weakly. Am i off of my rocker and the car is behaving normally or could something be going on? I have less than 300 miles total on the car and will bring it to the dealership in a heartbeat but i would prefer some info first so that i can go in "armed" so to speak.

Thoughts?

Thanks gents, great forum so far.

[ms3rick]

Was you trying to boost in a turn? (swas fail)
How hot is it outside?
300 miles and already driving hard? :X

[Dmurray06]

Genpu's ECU limits boost in first an second gear to reduce torque steer. The Cobb AccessPort will resolve this problem.

[Sid3wayS]

You're getting used to the car. Stop being paranoid.

[ms3rick]

Originally Posted by Dmurray06 Genpu's ECU limits boost in first an second gear to reduce torque steer. The Cobb AccessPort will resolve this problem.

This!!!!!


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[Magsz]

Nope,

Not turning while burning the throttle in a turn.

I am also not driving the car hard guys. Going to 4k rpms is not...hard...

Running through the gears slamming through the shift range at red line is driving hard.

As i mentioned, i have already read here that the boost range is limited in 1st and 2nd gear to limit torque steer BUT does anyone have any numbers as to what i should expect?

EDIT: 95 degrees ambient temperature, tons of humidity. I live in South Florida so it is pretty disgusting here.

[Dmurray06]

Could have heat soaked the top mount...doesn't take much.

[painfulpillow]

I believe 8 in 1st, 12ish in 2nd. Stock factory boost is 15.5psi

[ms3rick]

don't go boost under 2500(3k+ in 5th) and shift at 5500-5750rpm(on stock tune)


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[ms3rick]

Originally Posted by painfulpillow I believe 8 in 1st, 12ish in 2nd. Stock factory boost is 15.5psi

When I was running stock tune, I swear I was hitting higher boost, but lower load maybe I'm on crack


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[Magsz]

You guys are throwing out alot of terms im not really understanding. I need time to learn the lingo.

So, 8k will be my "limit" in 1st? Well, the car wont go above zero at 4k in first. Does rate of throttle application determine boost or will this be a linear correlation? Meaning at 4k rpm i will always have 8k boost? (that is just an example).

Let me know if that makes sense.

Also, i am about to go google heat soaking but would you care to elaborate on that?

[motherfnmonsta]

well if you think there is a loss of power take it back to the dealership and explain what you are feeling to a exact T and see what they think, not like it is going to cost you anything.

As far as I understand heat soak is this. You basically have a aluminum radiator that air flows threw sitting on top of your engine. Just soaking in the heat from your engine. Well the turbo also is pushing out hot air into the top mount and that is heating up the the inter cooler even more so you have super hot air going into your engine which is not very efficient, and you basically have no way of getting colder air in there quick enough to keep the the inter cooler cool to keep the charged air coming into cool.

If you want to learn more about turbos and how they work there are some great books out there here is one of them some of the info is outdated but the principle of how turbos work is the same now.

Amazon.com: Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems (Engineering and Performance) (9780837601601): Corky Bell: Books

Amazon.com: Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems (Engineering and Performance) (9780837601601): Corky Bell: Books
Amazon.com: Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems (Engineering and Performance) (9780837601601): Corky Bell: Books

[Dmurray06]

The further you put your foot down the more boost.

Heat soak is when your intercooler is basically hot as fuck and isn't doing its job properly, resulting in higher boost air temp, a lot of knock. Knock cuts timing and power.

Thats as quick and simple as I can make it.

[ms3rick]

8psi, boost is pressure.


8k boost is enough to fill an airport full of jets


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[jbmazda6]

The "amount" of boost is varied pending on your throttle position in correlation with time. If you slowly accelerate up to 4k rpms then you can be in negative boost still. When you see full boost is when you give it quite a bit of gas or go WOT (wide open throttle). When you're traveling in 3rd gear at about 3k rpms give it a lot of gas and if you feel the "boost" sensation then you know your at least getting boost. That gears usually the easiest to tell IMHO.

[jeopardy98]

Is driving hard on a new car bad? I break every engine I've owned in just like I plan to drive/ride it. I bought mine brand new and had run 2 autocrosses and 3 dyno pulls before 1K miles. Oh well, we'll see.

Between your nasty hot temps, heat soak, getting used to your car and the ECU limited boost I would just say you are being paranoid. Also make sure your AC isn't on while riding around because that will kill your power.

[Magsz]

Good explanations guys.

Thank you as well for the link to the book Mother.

I dont want to waste the time of the dealership or mine as i have other things to do despite this being fairly important to me.

I am going to call the dealership in the morning and see what they have to say.

I just took the car out for a ride and while it doesnt feel as peppy as it did over the weekend the car seems to be performing in line with what you guys have pointed out, ie 8k boost limit in 2nd gear. This is why i requested numbers as the ol "feelometer" isnt exactly scientific. All that i had to go by was the massive torque steer experienced over the weekend where the car's steering wheel visibly bucked in my hands versus today where i was barely noticing the turbo kicking in.

Perhaps i am just getting used to shifting through the gears and the cars unique power band.

If i do take the car in and there is indeed an issue i will update accordingly.

[ms3rick]

I forgot there was torque steer until I tuned.. Lol at full boost in lower gears... It scares people at a stop light.

Damn ots stage 1 with a nice duty cycle my spool screams


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[crankshaft]

Have you added fuel? Lower octane by mistake?

[edwag]

Magsz,

I believe I have a similar situation as you. Brand new car, it felt very strong for the first 400 km (250 mi). Drove it moderately hard, all city driving, short-shifting at 4000 rpm.

After 400 km I filled up the tank with a 94 octane fuel that had 10% ethanol. The next day the car felt entirely different, power had been cut dramatically. Now, after putting an additional 300 km (700 km / 440 mi total on odometer) the ECU has finally adjusted to the new fuel and the power delivery is essentially back to normal.

Similar to crankshaft's question, I wonder if you noticed the change in performance immediately after filling the car up with new fuel.

[twistedms3]

i wouldnt even bother calling the dealer dude....especially knowing the 2 down in miami personally neither one i would let touch my car. if you want check the soflamazdacrew website for the next meet and im sure one of them wouldnt mind taking a ride with you to see if they feel what you're feeling

[Big sugaaakane1]

i feel the same way, wierd... i'm in the long island, new york area. i have 2600 miles, and the first 1000 were crazy, the pulls were insane and i admit, before 600 there was two or three times that i went past 4500rpm but other than that i never went past that, i run 93 octane fuel and i never floor it until 3000 rpm. maybe i'm getting used to it too but today i had a college orientation and my friend has a 2012 si. and we pulled from 3rd gear, around 38-40 mph all the way through 4th gear (there was a little bit of traffic) 3rd gear he stayed next to me, and stayed with me all the way through 4th gear until about 4500 rpms then i slowly creeped away until i had to slow down, no i don't shift like a retard, i actually know how to shift. maybe honda decided that it was time to make a faster car or something is wrong with the speed3. i have 2012 myself. i even did the hold the traction button for 15 seconds thing and idk if this is normal but i'm starting to feel like my speed3 is suffering somewhere. (also if i hold the button for 20 seconds the traction off button turns off again and i can't turn it back on idk what that does or if it's literally just that i can't turn off traction control) but i've seen videos and races where speed3's destroys civic si's stock vs stock and my race with this si was pretty close. do you guys think anything or what could be the problem?

[Dmurray06]

Originally Posted by Big sugaaakane1 i feel the same way, wierd... i'm in the long island, new york area. i have 2600 miles, and the first 1000 were crazy, the pulls were insane and i admit, before 600 there was two or three times that i went past 4500rpm but other than that i never went past that, i run 93 octane fuel and i never floor it until 3000 rpm. maybe i'm getting used to it too but today i had a college orientation and my friend has a 2012 si. and we pulled from 3rd gear, around 38-40 mph all the way through 4th gear (there was a little bit of traffic) 3rd gear he stayed next to me, and stayed with me all the way through 4th gear until about 4500 rpms then i slowly creeped away until i had to slow down, no i don't shift like a retard, i actually know how to shift. maybe honda decided that it was time to make a faster car or something is wrong with the speed3. i have 2012 myself. i even did the hold the traction button for 15 seconds thing and idk if this is normal but i'm starting to feel like my speed3 is suffering somewhere. (also if i hold the button for 20 seconds the traction off button turns off again and i can't turn it back on idk what that does or if it's literally just that i can't turn off traction control) but i've seen videos and races where speed3's destroys civic si's stock vs stock and my race with this si was pretty close. do you guys think anything or what could be the problem?

I had to read your post twice, first I read sti and I thought well that's pretty normal. Re-read "si" you sir have a problem. Actually more than one.

[Big sugaaakane1]

Originally Posted by Dmurray06 I had to read your post twice, first I read sti and I thought well that's pretty normal. Re-read "si" you sir have a problem. Actually more than one.

is there anything you can sy on what it might be? or do you have any idea what could be the problem? i'm going to the nator meet here at douglaston ny and ima have a couple of guys test drive it, but if anything i'll take it to the dealer, but yea anything you can help me with???? please. be nice to a brownie

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Let me know if you need an Access port OP to feed that power hunger

[ms3rick]

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport Let me know if you need an Access port OP to feed that power hunger

Do this, and get Hpfp internals!


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[Magsz]

Drove the car again today. Nothing new to report other than yes, last night i did drive the car AFTER fueling.

I had been running the car off of the gas that the dealership had given me which i highly doubt was 93% octane.

I am embarrassed to say i had no understanding of how turbo chargers work. At least i am learning about throttle management now and yes, the car will boost but torque steer is not what it was and the car feels like it is hitting a "wall" as i climb through the gears.

The feeling of the turbo kicking in and pushing me back in my seat is gone. Either ive gotten used to it or im not shifting at the right times.

For now, i am going to continue driving the car. If i can get out to a meet and have a chance to have a more experienced gent take a look at my car that will be the ultimate indicator. Hopefully i am just being paranoid.

[CW42]

I have a gen 1 and noticed the same problem after my ecu was flashed a week after I bought the car used. Took it for an oil change and they flashed it at the dealer. Been screwy ever since even when it's supposedly working right. I asked them what the flash was for but they didn't know. I have no real torque steer anymore either and the car is very slow on take off even if you floor it. When I first got it, I could barely hang onto the wheel if I just tapped the gas but it's just been a slightly peppy regular car ever since. I know it isn't because I suddenly got used to the car because my ex girlfriend drove it and just found it a bit peppy but nothing special. She didn't notice any real power from the car. My theory is that the massive torque plus the failing motor mount issue spelled a big safety issue so the flash actually cut the car's balls off to save the mounts.

[6Y MAZDA]

noobz is gonna noob

[motherfnmonsta]

Originally Posted by 6Y MAZDA noobz is gonna noob

And this comes from a brownie

OP just run the tank almost empty and go to a gas station that you know has good gas and does a decent volume so that you know there is fresh gas in the tanks at all times. I have heard some people say shell dont run to well in there speed 3 but I run shell here and dont have any issues but I also use shell cause of the bi lo bonus card where every time you spend money at the grocery store it gives you fuel perks and I am up to 25 cent off at my next fill up.

But there has not been any tsb posted about this issue. I did look up lack of power and there is a mountain of reasons why there is a lack of power but the #1 is fuel quality.

[Sid3wayS]

Like I said at the begining you are getting used to the car. Its normal and you are overly paranoid because it is your first turbo car. It happens you are fine. Also you should post up in the fl nator section. Lots of us down here in s.fla. We are actualy meeting up friday at a "car show" off 595

[BlueDmnSpeed]

OP also keep in mind the stock intake and turbo inlet pipe are very restrictive. so the spool with the stock intake doesn't kick in immediately and also stock these cars have a lot of turbo lag. after i got a new intake and turbo inlet pipe)TIP) i notice less turbo lag. now that i am tuned with the cobb access port there is almost no turbo lag at all. i doesn't sound like you have any major concerns to worry about. just do what the guys said. get the cobb access port first then fuel pump internals, either KMD or Autotech internals(i believe most here go with KMD as this brand i believe has given best results and reliability) then start doing power mods and motor mounts.

[Sid3wayS]

Originally Posted by BlueDmnSpeed OP also keep in mind the stock intake and turbo inlet pipe are very restrictive. so the spool with the stock intake doesn't kick in immediately and also stock these cars have a lot of turbo lag. after i got a new intake and turbo inlet pipe)TIP) i notice less turbo lag. now that i am tuned with the cobb access port there is almost no turbo lag at all. i doesn't sound like you have any major concerns to worry about. just do what the guys said. get the cobb access port first then fuel pump internals, either KMD or Autotech internals(i believe most here go with KMD as this brand i believe has given best results and reliability) then start doing power mods and motor mounts.

I believe you mean auto techs. Kmd has gone thru countless revisions and has failed ALOT. Not to say the auto techs havnt had their share of issues, but the majority has been installer error

[BlueDmnSpeed]

Originally Posted by Sid3wayS I believe you mean auto techs. Kmd has gone thru countless revisions and has failed ALOT. Not to say the auto techs havnt had their share of issues, but the majority has been installer error

oh i guess i am wrong i thought it was the other way around. so yeah the autotechs are the one to get OP

[jeopardy98]

And rear motor mount before power mods.

[motherfnmonsta]

Originally Posted by jeopardy98 And rear motor mount before power mods.

+1 on this. That was my first mod I purchased a used solid rmm and when I installed it took me a whole five min to install.

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[TimSpeed]

I noticed the same thing in my car. I bought it with 1 mile on the car. The first day was great. It seemed to spool very quickly and you could feel the torque steer. Then I babied the car until I had 600 miles on it. I couldn't wait to see what it would feel like at WOT. It felt okay but nothing like the light pulls in the beginning. I feel mine has lost some pep....almost like Mazda had a "test drive" tune.

[Big sugaaakane1]

that's what i'm starting to think, look up and look at my previous comment, a fuckin 2012 civic si kept up with me until 4500rpms in 4th gear... i shift at 5500-5750 rpms, i know thats where the powerband breaks off and i do shift fast yet that little piece of shit kept up with me, the car was completely stock so is my 2012 speed3. i hvae no idea what the fuck was going on and supposedly this car is supposed to beat sti's to 100 and so on.... it really bothers me alot

[SRTie4k]

Originally Posted by Magsz Drove the car again today. Nothing new to report other than yes, last night i did drive the car AFTER fueling. I had been running the car off of the gas that the dealership had given me which i highly doubt was 93% octane. I am embarrassed to say i had no understanding of how turbo chargers work. At least i am learning about throttle management now and yes, the car will boost but torque steer is not what it was and the car feels like it is hitting a "wall" as i climb through the gears. The feeling of the turbo kicking in and pushing me back in my seat is gone. Either ive gotten used to it or im not shifting at the right times. For now, i am going to continue driving the car. If i can get out to a meet and have a chance to have a more experienced gent take a look at my car that will be the ultimate indicator. Hopefully i am just being paranoid.

There are several things at play here.

1. You will get used to the feeling of the torque after a while, and thus it will seem like it is less "violent" than before.

2. The car reacts to different ambient temps very dramatically. Stomping the throttle at 60*F will give you that violent throw back in your seat, whereas stomping it at 90*F will not. Why? Because the density of air that the turbo shoves into the engine is much greater at 60* than it is at 90*. The more air that the cylinders take in, the more power it will put out (so long as you aren't being limited by fuel/knock).

3. Knock can creep up in some instances and cut your timing down quite a bit. This will feel like hesitation. It's caused by very hot intake temps or piss gas, i.e. less than 93.

4. That "wall" that you are talking about is right around 5500-5600. That is the point at which the turbo steps out of its efficiency range and starts blowing lots of hot air. Because of this fact, Mazda tuned the throttle plate to close at this RPM range to redline. Less, hotter air = less power, or the "wall". Shifting at 5600 will alleviate this. Tuning will also help remedy this, although it will never go away completely with the tiny K04 (the turbo).

[p057]

Originally Posted by Big sugaaakane1 that's what i'm starting to think, look up and look at my previous comment, a fuckin 2012 civic si kept up with me until 4500rpms in 4th gear... i shift at 5500-5750 rpms, i know thats where the powerband breaks off and i do shift fast yet that little piece of shit kept up with me, the car was completely stock so is my 2012 speed3. i hvae no idea what the fuck was going on and supposedly this car is supposed to beat sti's to 100 and so on.... it really bothers me alot

.....lol.

Originally Posted by Magsz at 4k rpm i will always have 8k boost?

Originally Posted by Magsz 8k boost limit in 2nd gear.

and rofl at "8k boost"


oh god. my brain exploded